God made the World!!
17 September 2010, 11:11 PM
#121
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No, it is wrong. We need to be quite clear on that. We are not talking about someone being declared dead but yet being resucitated within a longer time frame than usual, or mis-certification of death here. He was crucified, and speared by a Roman soldier. He was taken down several hours later, (presumably after a good bleed) and wrapped in a shroud, completely covering him, so presumably restricting any breathing he may have had. He is then sealed in a small cave for 3 days.
Now it is not beyong the realms of possibilty that he was still alive after 3 days, but consider this : huge blood loss, restricted breathing, no water, no food. In the extremely unlikely event he wasn't dead, do you think that after 3 days of those conditions he actually got up and walked round unaided? And moved the rock blocking his tomb?
Now it is not beyong the realms of possibilty that he was still alive after 3 days, but consider this : huge blood loss, restricted breathing, no water, no food. In the extremely unlikely event he wasn't dead, do you think that after 3 days of those conditions he actually got up and walked round unaided? And moved the rock blocking his tomb?
17 September 2010, 11:14 PM
#122
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Wow, these religion threads always turn into a debate!
I don't see why people seem to think that being taught about religion will have any major effect at such a young age, especially when children are being taught specific things such as what Trout outlines.
I am all for religion, however I don't expect my children to do as I did, I want them to have the chance to understand many cultures and religions. I don't want them to have to conform to a specific thinking only to feel they then have convert to another in the future.
A child can have a religious studies lesson, and still ne a brat, but chances are that it's mire about the upbringing of the child rather than the fact they ate religious or not.
Chances are my children may choose the Christian faith, and I will be happy with that, but I wouldn't expect them to beleive things like Jesus was the son of God, or God created the world, when there is so much more to understand. It isn't as simple as them just learning it. They need to have the intelligence and maturity to understand the bigger picture.
I don't see why people seem to think that being taught about religion will have any major effect at such a young age, especially when children are being taught specific things such as what Trout outlines.
I am all for religion, however I don't expect my children to do as I did, I want them to have the chance to understand many cultures and religions. I don't want them to have to conform to a specific thinking only to feel they then have convert to another in the future.
A child can have a religious studies lesson, and still ne a brat, but chances are that it's mire about the upbringing of the child rather than the fact they ate religious or not.
Chances are my children may choose the Christian faith, and I will be happy with that, but I wouldn't expect them to beleive things like Jesus was the son of God, or God created the world, when there is so much more to understand. It isn't as simple as them just learning it. They need to have the intelligence and maturity to understand the bigger picture.
17 September 2010, 11:33 PM
#123
My point was you can bring children up to have values and teach them how to be decent without necessarily using religious teachings. It is perfectly possible to raise a child to know right from wrong, how to be kind, decent and respectful to others without referring to a religious text.
To be fair, I haven't said I disagree with telling Bible stories or fairytales to assist in teaching morals, I have just said I don't feel a parent has to. Every parent no doubt has a different approach to raising their little ones, are we saying every child from a religious background turns out lovely and good, and those not all become bad people?
17 September 2010, 11:39 PM
#124
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So I am not sure how your monotheist consciousness leads to presume your first statement that Westerners cannot comprehend Buddhism other than intellectually! Or is it that you are so stuck in your monotheism it is in fact you that cannot understand it spiritually?
Hinduism is monotheist, polytheist and atheist all at once as it is a highly fragmented religion.
18 September 2010, 03:29 AM
#125
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These statements would seem to be a huge contradiction. Buddhism is in essence, to utilise a Judeo-Christian interpretation, atheist.
So I am not sure how your monotheist consciousness leads to presume your first statement that Westerners cannot comprehend Buddhism other than intellectually! Or is it that you are so stuck in your monotheism it is in fact you that cannot understand it spiritually?
Hinduism is monotheist, polytheist and atheist all at once as it is a highly fragmented religion.
So I am not sure how your monotheist consciousness leads to presume your first statement that Westerners cannot comprehend Buddhism other than intellectually! Or is it that you are so stuck in your monotheism it is in fact you that cannot understand it spiritually?
Hinduism is monotheist, polytheist and atheist all at once as it is a highly fragmented religion.
More to the point it's very Christian monotheistic since it says that the truth is accessible to all individuals. Many eastern religions stress fatalism where the truth is unknowable, and patheonism stresses the capricious/random nature of the universe. Christianity says it is ordered and predictable and science is based on that assumption.
Primitive religions like animism place man closer to nature, with monotheism it takes us further away from such a natural state, we live life much more consciously, truths are abstract not just what you see and feel. Science just goes a bit further.
It's why I am suspicious of people who say they are pagans and stuff. How do you unlearn monotheism?
18 September 2010, 06:00 AM
#126
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I don't have or want kids so can't really answer that directly.
My point was you can bring children up to have values and teach them how to be decent without necessarily using religious teachings. It is perfectly possible to raise a child to know right from wrong, how to be kind, decent and respectful to others without referring to a religious text.
To be fair, I haven't said I disagree with telling Bible stories or fairytales to assist in teaching morals, I have just said I don't feel a parent has to. Every parent no doubt has a different approach to raising their little ones, are we saying every child from a religious background turns out lovely and good, and those not all become bad people?
My point was you can bring children up to have values and teach them how to be decent without necessarily using religious teachings. It is perfectly possible to raise a child to know right from wrong, how to be kind, decent and respectful to others without referring to a religious text.
To be fair, I haven't said I disagree with telling Bible stories or fairytales to assist in teaching morals, I have just said I don't feel a parent has to. Every parent no doubt has a different approach to raising their little ones, are we saying every child from a religious background turns out lovely and good, and those not all become bad people?
something along the lines of this then?
The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:2-17 NKJV)
1 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.
3 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.
4 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
5 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.
6 “You shall not murder.
7 “You shall not commit adultery.
8 “You shall not steal.
9 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.”
Last edited by salsa-king; 18 September 2010 at 06:02 AM.
18 September 2010, 06:54 AM
#127
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Science is monotheistic, it believes in one truth.
More to the point it's very Christian monotheistic since it says that the truth is accessible to all individuals. Many eastern religions stress fatalism where the truth is unknowable, and patheonism stresses the capricious/random nature of the universe. Christianity says it is ordered and predictable and science is based on that assumption.
Primitive religions like animism place man closer to nature, with monotheism it takes us further away from such a natural state, we live life much more consciously, truths are abstract not just what you see and feel. Science just goes a bit further.
It's why I am suspicious of people who say they are pagans and stuff. How do you unlearn monotheism?
More to the point it's very Christian monotheistic since it says that the truth is accessible to all individuals. Many eastern religions stress fatalism where the truth is unknowable, and patheonism stresses the capricious/random nature of the universe. Christianity says it is ordered and predictable and science is based on that assumption.
Primitive religions like animism place man closer to nature, with monotheism it takes us further away from such a natural state, we live life much more consciously, truths are abstract not just what you see and feel. Science just goes a bit further.
It's why I am suspicious of people who say they are pagans and stuff. How do you unlearn monotheism?
18 September 2010, 10:25 AM
#128
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Science is monotheistic, it believes in one truth.
More to the point it's very Christian monotheistic since it says that the truth is accessible to all individuals. Many eastern religions stress fatalism where the truth is unknowable, and patheonism stresses the capricious/random nature of the universe. Christianity says it is ordered and predictable and science is based on that assumption.
Primitive religions like animism place man closer to nature, with monotheism it takes us further away from such a natural state, we live life much more consciously, truths are abstract not just what you see and feel. Science just goes a bit further.
It's why I am suspicious of people who say they are pagans and stuff. How do you unlearn monotheism?
More to the point it's very Christian monotheistic since it says that the truth is accessible to all individuals. Many eastern religions stress fatalism where the truth is unknowable, and patheonism stresses the capricious/random nature of the universe. Christianity says it is ordered and predictable and science is based on that assumption.
Primitive religions like animism place man closer to nature, with monotheism it takes us further away from such a natural state, we live life much more consciously, truths are abstract not just what you see and feel. Science just goes a bit further.
It's why I am suspicious of people who say they are pagans and stuff. How do you unlearn monotheism?
Is it too much to just live your life without necessarily following any belief system? Or would you class rejecting religion and doing that merely as being a follower of science?
18 September 2010, 10:33 AM
#129
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God making the world in seven days, I have never said. I have never mentioned religion in any shape or form to them nor has it ever been discussed. They have been allowed to form their own opinions. If the school has influenced them in any way whilst growing up, I have no idea. I doubt it though.
RE has always been part of the curriculum as far as I am aware and it has certainly not done my kids any harm.
18 September 2010, 10:43 AM
#130
You don't need the ten commandments to teach children right from wrong, respect, decency and common sense. Who in their right mind needs a book to tell them it's wrong to kill and steal etc? Children learn by example too and I think I'm doing fine with my children with out any religious teachings.
18 September 2010, 11:25 AM
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I have told my girlfriend's niece that if I pat her on the head she has to jump around and hoot like a chimp 
She's also been told by her dad, that the ice-cream van plays music to say that it has sold out of ice cream
She's also been told by her dad, that the ice-cream van plays music to say that it has sold out of ice cream
18 September 2010, 12:30 PM
#133
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You don't need the ten commandments to teach children right from wrong, respect, decency and common sense. Who in their right mind needs a book to tell them it's wrong to kill and steal etc? Children learn by example too and I think I'm doing fine with my children with out any religious teachings.
18 September 2010, 01:04 PM
#135
Let's face it, at some point in the past some people decided they needed to keep order in this ever expanding world. A moral code was drawn up, a mythical (big fear of the unknown back then) 'god' was created and used as a threat to people who didn't follow this code (ie going to a hell if not obeyed etc).
Regarding christianity..
Then some old scrubber got up the duff by not following the 'though shalt not bone the neighbour' part. Insisted to her boyfriend (who she hadn't slept) with that she'd never been touched by another man, foolish bloke believed her. Word spread that it was an immaculate conception and it must be the son of god as the baby was placed inside her
Then the bloke was born and sheep that believed the immaculate conception story followed him around and anything he did was exaggerated for ever more..
So basically many people around the world worship someone on a total lie and we moan about the break down in society now? That whole setup is based on someone putting it about! There's plenty of 'Mary' characters around the estates these days, sadly nobody is going to go with the immaculate conception line anymore :-(
Or, I'm totally wrong. I know what I believe though! I just don't need to be scared into having a sense of decency, many years ago people were easily groomed into it with their narrow minds and lack of knowledge. I just don't get why people these days need it? Especially in forward thinking countries.
Regarding christianity..
Then some old scrubber got up the duff by not following the 'though shalt not bone the neighbour' part. Insisted to her boyfriend (who she hadn't slept) with that she'd never been touched by another man, foolish bloke believed her. Word spread that it was an immaculate conception and it must be the son of god as the baby was placed inside her
Then the bloke was born and sheep that believed the immaculate conception story followed him around and anything he did was exaggerated for ever more..
So basically many people around the world worship someone on a total lie and we moan about the break down in society now? That whole setup is based on someone putting it about! There's plenty of 'Mary' characters around the estates these days, sadly nobody is going to go with the immaculate conception line anymore :-(
Or, I'm totally wrong. I know what I believe though! I just don't need to be scared into having a sense of decency, many years ago people were easily groomed into it with their narrow minds and lack of knowledge. I just don't get why people these days need it? Especially in forward thinking countries.
18 September 2010, 01:04 PM
#136
Let's face it, at some point in the past some people decided they needed to keep order in this ever expanding world. A moral code was drawn up, a mythical (big fear of the unknown back then) 'god' was created and used as a threat to people who didn't follow this code (ie going to a hell if not obeyed etc).
Regarding christianity..
Then some old scrubber got up the duff by not following the 'though shalt not bone the neighbour' part. Insisted to her boyfriend (who she hadn't slept) with that she'd never been touched by another man, foolish bloke believed her. Word spread that it was an immaculate conception and it must be the son of god as the baby was placed inside her
Then the bloke was born and sheep that believed the immaculate conception story followed him around and anything he did was exaggerated for ever more..
So basically many people around the world worship someone on a total lie and we moan about the break down in society now? That whole setup is based on someone putting it about! There's plenty of 'Mary' characters around the estates these days, sadly nobody is going to go with the immaculate conception line anymore :-(
Or, I'm totally wrong. I know what I believe though! I just don't need to be scared into having a sense of decency, many years ago people were easily groomed into it with their narrow minds and lack of knowledge. I just don't get why people these days need it? Especially in forward thinking countries.
Regarding christianity..
Then some old scrubber got up the duff by not following the 'though shalt not bone the neighbour' part. Insisted to her boyfriend (who she hadn't slept) with that she'd never been touched by another man, foolish bloke believed her. Word spread that it was an immaculate conception and it must be the son of god as the baby was placed inside her
Then the bloke was born and sheep that believed the immaculate conception story followed him around and anything he did was exaggerated for ever more..
So basically many people around the world worship someone on a total lie and we moan about the break down in society now? That whole setup is based on someone putting it about! There's plenty of 'Mary' characters around the estates these days, sadly nobody is going to go with the immaculate conception line anymore :-(
Or, I'm totally wrong. I know what I believe though! I just don't need to be scared into having a sense of decency, many years ago people were easily groomed into it with their narrow minds and lack of knowledge. I just don't get why people these days need it? Especially in forward thinking countries.
18 September 2010, 05:22 PM
#137
Let's face it, at some point in the past some people decided they needed to keep order in this ever expanding world. A moral code was drawn up, a mythical (big fear of the unknown back then) 'god' was created and used as a threat to people who didn't follow this code (ie going to a hell if not obeyed etc).
Regarding christianity..
Then some old scrubber got up the duff by not following the 'though shalt not bone the neighbour' part. Insisted to her boyfriend (who she hadn't slept) with that she'd never been touched by another man, foolish bloke believed her. Word spread that it was an immaculate conception and it must be the son of god as the baby was placed inside her
Then the bloke was born and sheep that believed the immaculate conception story followed him around and anything he did was exaggerated for ever more..
So basically many people around the world worship someone on a total lie and we moan about the break down in society now? That whole setup is based on someone putting it about! There's plenty of 'Mary' characters around the estates these days, sadly nobody is going to go with the immaculate conception line anymore :-(
Or, I'm totally wrong. I know what I believe though! I just don't need to be scared into having a sense of decency, many years ago people were easily groomed into it with their narrow minds and lack of knowledge. I just don't get why people these days need it? Especially in forward thinking countries.
Regarding christianity..
Then some old scrubber got up the duff by not following the 'though shalt not bone the neighbour' part. Insisted to her boyfriend (who she hadn't slept) with that she'd never been touched by another man, foolish bloke believed her. Word spread that it was an immaculate conception and it must be the son of god as the baby was placed inside her
Then the bloke was born and sheep that believed the immaculate conception story followed him around and anything he did was exaggerated for ever more..
So basically many people around the world worship someone on a total lie and we moan about the break down in society now? That whole setup is based on someone putting it about! There's plenty of 'Mary' characters around the estates these days, sadly nobody is going to go with the immaculate conception line anymore :-(
Or, I'm totally wrong. I know what I believe though! I just don't need to be scared into having a sense of decency, many years ago people were easily groomed into it with their narrow minds and lack of knowledge. I just don't get why people these days need it? Especially in forward thinking countries.
18 September 2010, 05:34 PM
#138
No not really much of a point, last I heard it's not against the law to commit adultery, nor is illegal to call out the lord god's name in vain, etc. The morality of killing and stealing existed long before the Christianity and the Bible came to be.
18 September 2010, 05:42 PM
#139
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..........
Then some old scrubber got up the duff by not following the 'though shalt not bone the neighbour' part. Insisted to her boyfriend (who she hadn't slept) with that she'd never been touched by another man, foolish bloke believed her. Word spread that it was an immaculate conception and it must be the son of god as the baby was placed inside her
Then the bloke was born and sheep that believed the immaculate conception story followed him around and anything he did was exaggerated for ever more..
...............
I have my doubts about it myself but wouldn't express my views in such a demeaning way.
Is it just because it sounds clever because it's the Internet?
dl
18 September 2010, 06:18 PM
#141
Why do youi find it necessary to be so insulting to those people who do believe that story. It doesn't do any serious harm does it?
I have my doubts about it myself but wouldn't express my views in such a demeaning way.
Is it just because it sounds clever because it's the Internet?
dl
I have my doubts about it myself but wouldn't express my views in such a demeaning way.
Is it just because it sounds clever because it's the Internet?
dl
To be honest a few years ago I'd have not commented but I've had a couple of annoying encounters over recent years. One being my NHS physio who unleashed her full crazy **** on me one session, telling me there's no point continuing with any rehab work on my back until I 'let Jesus into my heart' as she put it.
I honestly thought it was a wind up at first, scanned the room from the hidden cameras as she chipped away with talk of me going to this Christian fellowship etc. After taking it for a while I told her blank she was wasting her time and I'm not a believer, she looked stunned literally like this -
lol. I then fired up my own onslaught and we ended up in quite a lengthy heated debate. It really pi55ed me off to be honest, she's lucky I didn't report her as she literally refused me any more treatment until I became some crazy, singing, convulsing nut job at the Christian fellowship.It just makes me uneasy when I'm around intelligent, nice people that have strong religious beliefs. I'm sorry if it offends you but I just think, why? I can understand in certain cultures but not here and now! Live your life by decent morals, bring up your children with those morals but don't go around telling me that a man was sat somewhere and decided to make the universe, then a few million years later decided to chuck his son down for some walking on water and a wine making course!
If there is a God, as one of his children he'll forgive me (as we do with our kids) if there isn't I haven't wasted my life appearing a bit odd to the majority of the population of England.
I (like most) can't begin to get my head around the creation of the universe but I'll be damned if I'd opt for some single 'god' knocking it up. So god is creator, where was he when he created the universe? Where was he sitting, what was the space he was in etc.
18 September 2010, 06:57 PM
#142
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Jameswrx. OK. I didn't realise that you got religion on the NHS
My own view, FWIW, is that there is a force out there that works/operates in dimensions we can't even comprehend so pretty much anything is possible outside of our own 3 dimensional science. I do think scientists can be a bit on the arrogant side - if I see a beautiful flower opening I am supposed to believe that this all evolved from some hot mud bath a few billion years ago. And there seems to be an assumption that the universe operates in just the dimensions that the feeble human brain understands and that seems pretty bloody arrogant to me!
dl
Anyway it's Saturday and I am going back to my Peter Green tunes. A bit too much pseudo intellectual claptrap on this thread for me. I'm just stupid like the rest
18 September 2010, 07:24 PM
#143
What's to say that the Bible wasn't created by Satan? Who created it to cast doubt into God's subjects, that if God's subjects did not follow the holy scripture that it would give Satan a legitimate right to claim your soul? To create different belief's by making the Bible open to interpretation and therefore create conflict; to make God's subjects kill each other because one belief is different from another? History has shown people have committed acts of unspeakable torture and suffering all in the name of God and religion. Even today, some religions still carry out these acts, all because someone has done something against one's belief and seek to punish them in the most foul manner. To live in fear of God is also to live in fear of Satan.
This isn't say I believe what I just wrote!
This isn't say I believe what I just wrote!
Last edited by jonc; 18 September 2010 at 07:25 PM.
18 September 2010, 09:37 PM
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It's not monotheistic. Theism is belief in a God, not a principle. Science believes that truth can be arrived at via the empirical method. And the fruits of its labours are what we are all using to communicate with.
18 September 2010, 11:47 PM
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Scintistic truth does not care if you are a man, women, or member of this or that tribe or priest class. It's open to all.
It's Christian monotheism just rebadged.
18 September 2010, 11:58 PM
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Sure but if the universe was capricious/unpredictable and its 'truths' inaccessible to all men then science would be a pointless exercise.
Scintistic truth does not care if you are a man, women, or member of this or that tribe or priest class. It's open to all.
It's Christian monotheism just rebadged.
Scintistic truth does not care if you are a man, women, or member of this or that tribe or priest class. It's open to all.
It's Christian monotheism just rebadged.
19 September 2010, 01:52 AM
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But the universe doesn't seem to be capricious and unpredictable, except in the cases of inherently complex systems like weather, where the mathematics are too complex to make meaningful predictions. Generally, to a large extent the universe is predictable. You're postulating a reality where science doesn't have any use, and unfortunately for your argument, that's not the kind of universe in which we find ourselves. "Scientistic" truth doesn't even care whether you're Human, only sentient and able to appreciate the concept.
My point is that Christian Monotheism says that truth is universal - it exists 'out there' - and is accessible to all men. The universe is ordered and predictable. It's an optimistic message. Totally different to Pantheonism and pessimistic eastern religions and a little different than the fatalism of Islam.
19 September 2010, 08:52 AM
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