Dutch MP Wilders goes on trial
05 October 2010, 03:33 PM
#31
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OK then - you must really rate or Dutch Boy Wilders, well spoken well argued and good presentation skills - keep an eye on him as you might not want to dismiss him so easily...
05 October 2010, 04:12 PM
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And you feel the same way towards those who use religion, race, colour etc however badly to justify their actions???
OK then - you must really rate or Dutch Boy Wilders, well spoken well argued and good presentation skills - keep an eye on him as you might not want to dismiss him so easily...
OK then - you must really rate or Dutch Boy Wilders, well spoken well argued and good presentation skills - keep an eye on him as you might not want to dismiss him so easily...
05 October 2010, 04:41 PM
#33
To my mind;
If he is being treated the same as anyone (Muslim Jew Buddist whatever) then fair enough. If he is being singled out picked upon because of his beliefs and to silence them then not really fair.
I would be interested to hear from any Dutch (as i said earlier) about this.
Interesting those on SN who feel we are better off without any Muslims and Islam - what do you suggest as an answer - a holy war??? complete segregation???
If he is being treated the same as anyone (Muslim Jew Buddist whatever) then fair enough. If he is being singled out picked upon because of his beliefs and to silence them then not really fair.
I would be interested to hear from any Dutch (as i said earlier) about this.
Interesting those on SN who feel we are better off without any Muslims and Islam - what do you suggest as an answer - a holy war??? complete segregation???
I think this may have to do with their experiences in the second world war with the ***** and so-on.
Perhaps they need to "move forward" to coin a popular phrase.
Or backwards as may be the case in this instance.
Last edited by cster; 05 October 2010 at 04:44 PM.
05 October 2010, 04:47 PM
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^^^^ I think that we dismiss them at our Peril - Abu Hamza was pretty much unheard of until the poo hit the fan 9/11 and he was hardly speaker of the year, yet was happy to incite to those that would listen and listen they do.
Last edited by The Zohan; 05 October 2010 at 04:49 PM.
05 October 2010, 04:57 PM
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The genius of the Islamists is that the put fwd an essentially hard-left totalitarian ideology but hide it behind 'religion'. In this way the liberal political establishment has to tolerate it, even celebrate it, they can't even muster the strength to criticise it for fear of being labeled racist or bigoted.
05 October 2010, 05:34 PM
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05 October 2010, 05:36 PM
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The genius of the Islamists is that the put fwd an essentially hard-left totalitarian ideology but hide it behind 'religion'. In this way the liberal political establishment has to tolerate it, even celebrate it, they can't even muster the strength to criticise it for fear of being labeled racist or bigoted.
Yet Hamza was got rid of - in the end. As i have said many many times i hate extremists of any kind!
And i ask again; what is the answer - segregation and never to mix again, holy war to wipe out all those who oppose us and our way of life what do you think???
I am not too sure how well i would fair being an agnostic.
If it is to get rid of those who disagree with you then who is 'you' exactly and what do 'you' stand for and what will you tolerate or not???
I would like an integrated society where all contribute, obey the laws of the land and a good morale code and do not impose religion an anyone. One where communities are important and people look out for each other regardless of colour race or religion.
I am happy for all those who do not agree and cannot abide by this to **** off
05 October 2010, 05:38 PM
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I've noticed the same - f1_fan always comes across very bitter and frustrated in the vast majority of his posts! Can imagine in 'real life' he probably flies into a rage at the slightest hint of disagreement!
05 October 2010, 06:30 PM
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05 October 2010, 06:39 PM
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Like ps lewis, you are told in almost every thread you post in your views are tiresome and, to be honest, blinkered and far too liberal to be of any use when we live on a crowded island that gets fuller by the day with scum that arent fit to clean my bog!
my guess is you a daily mail subscriber who epitomises the acronym "nimby".
You think we should all be at peace with this army of illiterate clowns who are let in for no reason other than to sponge off the state because none of them will ever live near you and it doesnt really affect you
Go live in bradistan for a year and see if you still have the same views!
05 October 2010, 06:46 PM
#43
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Martin, go live in a area where whites are in the minority and see what ghettos they really are!
try going to news agent round here and see if their engilsh vocabulary consists of more than numbers i.e £9.80, which is barked at you in broken english with out even a please or thankyou, then when you leave they start slagging you off in durkha durkha language!
Why should this type of scum be allowed to live here?
We are an island with finite space, why shouldnt we shut the borders?
05 October 2010, 06:57 PM
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hes another "Not In My Back Yard", lives in a cooton wool wrapped world of country mansions and palatial estates.
Martin, go live in a area where whites are in the minority and see what ghettos they really are!
try going to news agent round here and see if their engilsh vocabulary consists of more than numbers i.e £9.80, which is barked at you in broken english with out even a please or thankyou, then when you leave they start slagging you off in durkha durkha language!
Why should this type of scum be allowed to live here?
We are an island with finite space, why shouldnt we shut the borders?
Martin, go live in a area where whites are in the minority and see what ghettos they really are!
try going to news agent round here and see if their engilsh vocabulary consists of more than numbers i.e £9.80, which is barked at you in broken english with out even a please or thankyou, then when you leave they start slagging you off in durkha durkha language!
Why should this type of scum be allowed to live here?
We are an island with finite space, why shouldnt we shut the borders?
And here lies an issue i have seen this in action in Bradisitan myself, yet my local shop is owned and run by asians who are some of the nicest people i know - not subservient just helpful and kind and a part of the wider community. You only need to look at the Bradistan insurance scam and who is doing this to see part of the problem and No! the perpetrators are not the victims and it is not down to them being marginalised it is down to integration and their values!
The problem areas like Bradistan have been allowed to fester for generations and now look what we have - a huge problem and likely to get worse unless delt with properly once and for all. No ghettos no communities within communities which are diametrically opposed and fear each other.
On the same note the sink estates the chavs and scumbags need the same treatment!
I do feel that we should be very selective over immigration only people we need to fill some specialist roles, when have an indigenous 2+million who can earn their benefits by cleaning schools and picking up litter and can train/retrain to earn their dole, not sit on their asses and wait for the cheque to fall through the letterbox!
Last edited by The Zohan; 05 October 2010 at 06:59 PM.
05 October 2010, 08:47 PM
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For what it's worth my solution is simple; CALM DOWN! We have a situation where a tiny, but very vocal minority of Muslims are having their awful and irrational views amplified by a media keen to whip up as much trouble as possible. The VAST majority of the people being demonised in threads like this are normal hard work people who care not a jot for the extremists or their daft ideas, and are just trying to get on with their lives.
Ultimately the answer to these irrational extremists is not to become more irrational ourselves.
05 October 2010, 08:53 PM
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if were gonna call each other names its better than being a politically correct *** who views are despised by the vast majority of posters on here,
Like ps lewis, you are told in almost every thread you post in your views are tiresome and, to be honest, blinkered and far too liberal to be of any use when we live on a crowded island that gets fuller by the day with scum that arent fit to clean my bog!
my guess is you a daily mail subscriber who epitomises the acronym "nimby".
You think we should all be at peace with this army of illiterate clowns who are let in for no reason other than to sponge off the state because none of them will ever live near you and it doesnt really affect you
Go live in bradistan for a year and see if you still have the same views!
Like ps lewis, you are told in almost every thread you post in your views are tiresome and, to be honest, blinkered and far too liberal to be of any use when we live on a crowded island that gets fuller by the day with scum that arent fit to clean my bog!
my guess is you a daily mail subscriber who epitomises the acronym "nimby".
You think we should all be at peace with this army of illiterate clowns who are let in for no reason other than to sponge off the state because none of them will ever live near you and it doesnt really affect you
Go live in bradistan for a year and see if you still have the same views!
Can it really be possible to be a Lefty, Gay, Nimby, PC and a DAILY MAIL reader, I mean come on that would take some contortions wouldn't it?
05 October 2010, 09:30 PM
#49
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People have the right to fear the extremists,they hide behind normal people,I have a young lady who rents a flat that I manage,she is Polish catholic by birth now a Muslim by marriage to a Kurdish Muslim who is a non status resident,she is a really intelligent yound lady fom a good family.I have talked to her many times about life in general,her problems started when she had a son in Poland out of marriage he is now 10 came to England got involved with her so called husband,,the Muslim center in London paid her to adopt her husband as her partner,he is like many that has the UK imagrant card but the foriegn office dont know where they are.To cut a long story short a Iranian guy wanted to rent my flat but did not have the deposit for 2 weeks and was claiming housing benefit so I said ok but you dont move in.Well the out come was he sublet the flat to the Polish lady who paid the waster £550 deposit.Well I went around to find out what was happening the Polish lady told me the truth so when this Iranian **** contacted me I took the rent/deposit from him then threw him out on the street on his ****.He then played the race/religion card at me to which I replied "if you were a white Christian I would still kick your **** now f@@k off.I went to the housing dept to report the fraud,guess what they were not interested!!!!!!!!!! no wonder we have so much fraud,the housing people are lazy and incompetent,that is why we are being swamped no f@@kin control
05 October 2010, 09:43 PM
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For what it's worth my solution is simple; CALM DOWN! We have a situation where a tiny, but very vocal minority of Muslims are having their awful and irrational views amplified by a media keen to whip up as much trouble as possible. The VAST majority of the people being demonised in threads like this are normal hard work people who care not a jot for the extremists or their daft ideas, and are just trying to get on with their lives.
Many Muslims sympathise with the Terrorists even if a little, it explains the persistence of terrorists within their 'communities'.
They subscribe to a similar narrative about Islam being a victim of the west etc, Jews controlling the media etc etc, just not quite as brazen and extreme, and they are inactive politically. You can see it in Muslims attitude to the Israel-Palestinian conflict. 99% of Muslims are 100% biased, blinkered and hypocritical about it.
Last edited by tony de wonderful; 05 October 2010 at 09:47 PM.
05 October 2010, 10:26 PM
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Really? How many Muslims have you talked to?
Many Muslims sympathise with the Terrorists even if a little, it explains the persistence of terrorists within their 'communities'.
They subscribe to a similar narrative about Islam being a victim of the west etc, Jews controlling the media etc etc, just not quite as brazen and extreme, and they are inactive politically. You can see it in Muslims attitude to the Israel-Palestinian conflict. 99% of Muslims are 100% biased, blinkered and hypocritical about it.
Many Muslims sympathise with the Terrorists even if a little, it explains the persistence of terrorists within their 'communities'.
They subscribe to a similar narrative about Islam being a victim of the west etc, Jews controlling the media etc etc, just not quite as brazen and extreme, and they are inactive politically. You can see it in Muslims attitude to the Israel-Palestinian conflict. 99% of Muslims are 100% biased, blinkered and hypocritical about it.
I have many freinds and colleagues who are Muslim, they are not extreme, they are incredibly western in their outlook. They would stand shoulder to shoulder with your view on the extremists.
I suggest you go and talk to some normal muslim folk rather than relying on clumsy stereotypes to make a deeply flawed argument
If I were Muslim reading your posts I'd be angry, then I'd say something you wouldn't like; the problem we have is one of action and reaction and reaction....
Cool heads needed, there is no other solution to this 'problem'
Oh and maybe (shock horror) they actually have a point in relation to Israel / Palestine
06 October 2010, 06:19 AM
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I have many freinds and colleagues who are Muslim, they are not extreme, they are incredibly western in their outlook. They would stand shoulder to shoulder with your view on the extremists.
I suggest you go and talk to some normal muslim folk rather than relying on clumsy stereotypes to make a deeply flawed argument
If I were Muslim reading your posts I'd be angry, then I'd say something you wouldn't like; the problem we have is one of action and reaction and reaction....
Cool heads needed, there is no other solution to this 'problem'
Oh and maybe (shock horror) they actually have a point in relation to Israel / Palestine
I suggest you go and talk to some normal muslim folk rather than relying on clumsy stereotypes to make a deeply flawed argument
If I were Muslim reading your posts I'd be angry, then I'd say something you wouldn't like; the problem we have is one of action and reaction and reaction....
Cool heads needed, there is no other solution to this 'problem'
Oh and maybe (shock horror) they actually have a point in relation to Israel / Palestine
No most Muslims have NOTHING to do with Israel-Palestine and know precious little against it. Palestine is just a cause they have adopted for themselves.
06 October 2010, 11:17 AM
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That's funny because the 'moderate' voice is pretty quiet against the extremists, otoh when Wilders proposed coming to the UK to show his film the 'moderate' Lord Achmad whatshisname threatened a march of 10,000 muslims on the streets of London. I've never seen the same mobilisation threatened against the terrorists.
No most Muslims have NOTHING to do with Israel-Palestine and know precious little against it. Palestine is just a cause they have adopted for themselves.
No most Muslims have NOTHING to do with Israel-Palestine and know precious little against it. Palestine is just a cause they have adopted for themselves.
Really - you can speak for the whole muslim population of the world?
06 October 2010, 04:43 PM
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06 October 2010, 04:46 PM
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06 October 2010, 05:26 PM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11486783
Muslim Terrorists from all over the world including England and mainland Europe fighting a jihad (a struggle) apparently happy to kill innocents for their and in the name of religion - how does that work exactly???
06 October 2010, 05:28 PM
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Is there a dichotomy between 'normal' muslims and the terrorists?
It's not hard to see Islam as an intractable political ideology in total conflict with secularism and liberalism, after all Islam as a religious-political ideology has never had an enlightenment.
If Islam is not intractable and is able to conform to secularism and liberalism then this should be easy to demonstrate right?
If not then we have a problem, just as Nazism and Communism were problems.
It's not hard to see Islam as an intractable political ideology in total conflict with secularism and liberalism, after all Islam as a religious-political ideology has never had an enlightenment.
If Islam is not intractable and is able to conform to secularism and liberalism then this should be easy to demonstrate right?
If not then we have a problem, just as Nazism and Communism were problems.
I think you would call the ones fitting the second description terrorists.
How can you expect any religion to conform to secularism, and why should it anyway? What right have you got to force your own beliefs on anyone?
We have a right to defend our own society, but not to enforce a particular creed, either religious or not.
Les
06 October 2010, 07:29 PM
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Interesting read here ... http://www.powerlineblog.com/archive.../10/027389.php ... ojn the terrorist that got life the other day for the Time Square bomb.
From the terrorist when asked about him becoming a US citizen and swearing allegience:
"... "I did swear, but I did not mean it," Shahzad said. ..." ... !!!!!!!!!!?????????
And, from a linked article, observations about Muslims in general and, it seems to me, what we are up against in the West:
"... [W]hether they are right or wrong, there are millions upon millions of Muslims who believe exactly what Shahzad believes about the nature of jihad and the demands of sharia. It is of no moment to them that we do not see ourselves as at war with Islam, or that we see the victims of terrorism as "innocent." They see things as Shahzad sees them, even if they are not willing to go the next step of commiting acts of terrorism, as Shahzad is.
From the perspective of American national security, it does not matter if those Muslims are wrong about Islam. What matters is that there are a lot of them and they constitute a mainstream current of Islamic thought. They have the support of influential Islamic scholars who tell them Islam is under siege, and they don't care in the slightest whether Western intellectuals (at whom they scoff) or Muslim reformers (whom they regard as apostates) think they have interpreted Islam incorrectly. ..."
Dave
From the terrorist when asked about him becoming a US citizen and swearing allegience:
"... "I did swear, but I did not mean it," Shahzad said. ..." ... !!!!!!!!!!?????????
And, from a linked article, observations about Muslims in general and, it seems to me, what we are up against in the West:
"... [W]hether they are right or wrong, there are millions upon millions of Muslims who believe exactly what Shahzad believes about the nature of jihad and the demands of sharia. It is of no moment to them that we do not see ourselves as at war with Islam, or that we see the victims of terrorism as "innocent." They see things as Shahzad sees them, even if they are not willing to go the next step of commiting acts of terrorism, as Shahzad is.
From the perspective of American national security, it does not matter if those Muslims are wrong about Islam. What matters is that there are a lot of them and they constitute a mainstream current of Islamic thought. They have the support of influential Islamic scholars who tell them Islam is under siege, and they don't care in the slightest whether Western intellectuals (at whom they scoff) or Muslim reformers (whom they regard as apostates) think they have interpreted Islam incorrectly. ..."
Dave
06 October 2010, 07:30 PM
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If you are asking if there is a difference between a person who adheres to Islam as it teaches its followers to do, and those who use the religion for their own selfish ends and are prepared to organise and encourage shameful acts in the name of that religion, then I did indeed mean just that.
I think you would call the ones fitting the second description terrorists.
How can you expect any religion to conform to secularism, and why should it anyway? What right have you got to force your own beliefs on anyone?
We have a right to defend our own society, but not to enforce a particular creed, either religious or not.
Les
How can you expect any religion to conform to secularism, and why should it anyway? What right have you got to force your own beliefs on anyone?
We have a right to defend our own society, but not to enforce a particular creed, either religious or not.
Les