Islamism
17 October 2010, 12:38 PM
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Les
17 October 2010, 12:41 PM
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17 October 2010, 12:49 PM
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Most radicals in other religions tend to be small in number. Sadly the radical Islamist numbers are relatively huge and from news reports growing fast.
They seem to have no problem in gaining converts in all countries and all areas of life. And when the terror is state sponsered (such as Iran) then anything can happen. Another huge atrocity will happen, its been too quiet for too long.
Beware..........................
They seem to have no problem in gaining converts in all countries and all areas of life. And when the terror is state sponsered (such as Iran) then anything can happen. Another huge atrocity will happen, its been too quiet for too long.
Beware..........................
Last edited by r32; 17 October 2010 at 12:51 PM.
17 October 2010, 01:35 PM
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Like any religion, surely the proponents of Islam believe that they should strive to make the entire world into muslims. That is part of the teaching. Rather than achieving that by violence one hopes that people continue to be allowed to make up their own minds whether to follow that religion, or any other one, or atheism as now. It is interesting that the attitude of atheists is just the same as any religion as far as trying to make everyone else believe as they do.
Muslims have a very different outlook on life in general to the British and that is why we are concerned and also the possibility of Sharia Law being forced upon us. That law is not officially part of that religion but appears to go with it.
I wonder if TDW would be prepared to define what he means by a "Secular Muslim". Can he ever imagine a devout muslim supporting secularism?
Everyone should be able to follow their own choice of beliefs without criticism as long as those beliefs do not affect others adversely in the way they wish to follow their own life.
Les
Muslims have a very different outlook on life in general to the British and that is why we are concerned and also the possibility of Sharia Law being forced upon us. That law is not officially part of that religion but appears to go with it.
I wonder if TDW would be prepared to define what he means by a "Secular Muslim". Can he ever imagine a devout muslim supporting secularism?
Everyone should be able to follow their own choice of beliefs without criticism as long as those beliefs do not affect others adversely in the way they wish to follow their own life.
Les
Christianity has been reconciled with reason for a long time, except for nutty fundie elements. Even an institution as conservative as the Catholic church would not consider advocating forced conversions or laws to persecute other religions etc.
17 October 2010, 02:21 PM
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Come on man, tell me what you think the solution is?
17 October 2010, 02:30 PM
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Mix up secondary schools so you don't get 100% pupils of one faith at one school for example. We need to fight the ghettoing effect. Schools are the key.
No sharia law in civil law.
No asylum or immigration to dodgy radical types.
Need to be tougher deporting radicals.
No mosques allowed to be built that have dodgy sources of funding i.e whabbis.
17 October 2010, 02:32 PM
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Ban any faith schools.
Mix up secondary schools so you don't get 100% pupils of one faith at one school for example. We need to fight the ghettoing effect. Schools are the key.
No sharia law in civil law.
No asylum or immigration to dodgy radical types.
Need to be tougher deporting radicals.
No mosques allowed to be built that have dodgy sources of funding i.e whabbis.
Mix up secondary schools so you don't get 100% pupils of one faith at one school for example. We need to fight the ghettoing effect. Schools are the key.
No sharia law in civil law.
No asylum or immigration to dodgy radical types.
Need to be tougher deporting radicals.
No mosques allowed to be built that have dodgy sources of funding i.e whabbis.
It doesn't tackle the percieved fundamental issue on 'Islamism' though does it?
17 October 2010, 02:43 PM
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Islamism may be the most viable way to open the power system up to the masses in Arab countries but over here it makes no sense - the fantasy of the caliphate - but only if it is exposed to the light. If you let it fester in insular communities and groups then it can grow yes so we need to stop insularism and the main way is with the educational system...we need to socialise young muslims out of an insular mindset where people are either 'muslims' or 'non muslims'...one way is to make sure schools have a diverse make up of students.
The alternative is to give up and say Islam is evil and remove it altogether. I don't see that as possible or correct.
17 October 2010, 06:54 PM
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Hi Jamie, I think you have the wrong thread; here you go. 
https://www.scoobynet.com/431910-the...hread-167.html
https://www.scoobynet.com/431910-the...hread-167.html
18 October 2010, 12:51 PM
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19 October 2010, 07:46 PM
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Implementing Shari'a Law across the globe is a central tenet of the Islamist movement. It's the perceived legislature of God and Western infidels' innate belief that law should be the product of reason is considered a crime punishable by death within, for example, Wahhabism.
The war is being fought physically and openly in the Middle East and here as a war of ideas. Education is the primary defence in this country, our sidearm is the application of reason to elevate awareness of the threat.
Right now, ignorance is our Achilles heel.
The war is being fought physically and openly in the Middle East and here as a war of ideas. Education is the primary defence in this country, our sidearm is the application of reason to elevate awareness of the threat.
Right now, ignorance is our Achilles heel.
Last edited by JTaylor; 19 October 2010 at 07:48 PM.
26 October 2010, 11:35 AM
#137
Implementing Shari'a Law across the globe is a central tenet of the Islamist movement. It's the perceived legislature of God and Western infidels' innate belief that law should be the product of reason is considered a crime punishable by death within, for example, Wahhabism.
The war is being fought physically and openly in the Middle East and here as a war of ideas. Education is the primary defence in this country, our sidearm is the application of reason to elevate awareness of the threat.
Right now, ignorance is our Achilles heel.
The war is being fought physically and openly in the Middle East and here as a war of ideas. Education is the primary defence in this country, our sidearm is the application of reason to elevate awareness of the threat.
Right now, ignorance is our Achilles heel.
I assume by isalmism you are referring to the Omar Bakri and his cult & those with similar goals & ideas (Hizb ut-Tahrir and al-Muhajirun etc)
Their ways and means of attaining there goals are:
1) Nurturing individuals in private upon the ideology of the cult (the underground stage),
2) then with sufficient followers, bring it out in the open (the open calling stage),
3) and then hope to initiate a general revolution (the inevitable confrontation) through which the khilaafah can be established.
But, as using communist revolutionary doctrines is not from the Shar'iyy asbaab (ways & means) in rectifying the people or the land, and where these methods have been implemented (1960s Egypt, 1980s Syria, 1990s Algeria), there was no khilaafah established, it turned out "social justice" was nowhere to be seen amongst the 150,000 or so dead men, women and children whose lives were wasted therein, and the actual condition of the people (as it relates to what is between them and Allaah) did not fundamentally change from what it was.
So in summary, I am with you, & against these power hungry bearded politicians
BUT
You are using terms which are not helpful. Wahhabism? At the forefront of Muslims in the UK warning about these people of misguidance and refuting them and outlining there problems publicly are people who learn from Muhammad Bin Abdul-Wahhaab's many books. This is where the term Wahhabbi comes from. It is used by the ignorant who don't like that his works destroy what they and their fathers are upon in terms innovated principles within the religion.
I have not read all 5 pages and I don't feel the internet is the best place to discuss these things but.............
26 October 2010, 11:44 AM
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Islamism - what a wicked faith. Interesting read AbbasSTI, but the fact remains that the fundamental drivers of hate and bile to any other religion or group exists within the basic principles of the Islamic religion, thus enabling the manipulation of weak minded idiots in the first place.
The fact is your entire religion is not helpful, not the fact that JT may have used a term that you disagree with.
DCI
The fact is your entire religion is not helpful, not the fact that JT may have used a term that you disagree with.
DCI
26 October 2010, 12:30 PM
#140
Islamism - what a wicked faith. Interesting read AbbasSTI, but the fact remains that the fundamental drivers of hate and bile to any other religion or group exists within the basic principles of the Islamic religion, thus enabling the manipulation of weak minded idiots in the first place.
The fact is your entire religion is not helpful, not the fact that JT may have used a term that you disagree with.
DCI
The fact is your entire religion is not helpful, not the fact that JT may have used a term that you disagree with.
DCI
The basic principles within Islaam are not the problem,
John Gray writing in the Independent under the title "How Marx Turned Muslim" highlighting the modern roots of Sayyid Qutb's teachings.:
"Soviet Marxism did not spring from an Orthodox monastery. It was one of the finest flowers of the European Enlightenment. Equally, the USSR was nothing if not an Enlightenment regime. The Soviet state was the vehicle of a westernising project from start to finish. The Cold War was a family quarrel among western ideologies, in which rival versions of political universalism struggled for hegemony.
Today, we are watching a rerun of that uncomprehending struggle. Of course, much has changed. Unlike communism, political Islam does not purport to be secular. For that reason alone, it is a puzzle for the many who still hold to the atavistic 19th-century faith that secularisation is the wave of the future. But the view that something called "the West" is under attack from an alien enemy is as mistaken now as it was in the Cold War.
Islamic fundamentalism is not an indigenous growth. It is an exotic hybrid, bred from the encounter of sections of the Islamic intelligentsia with radical western ideologies. In A Fury for God, Malise Ruthven shows that Sayyid Qutb, an Egyptian executed after imprisonment in 1966 and arguably the most influential ideologue of radical Islam, incorporated many elements derived from European ideology into his thinking. For example, the idea of a revolutionary vanguard of militant believers does not have an Islamic pedigree. It is "a concept imported from Europe, through a lineage that stretches back to the Jacobins, through the Bolsheviks and latter-day Marxist guerrillas such as the Baader-Meinhof gang".
In a brilliantly illuminating and arrestingly readable analysis, Ruthven demonstrates the close affinities between radical Islamist thought and the vanguard of modernist and postmodern thinking in the West. The inspiration for Qutb's thought is not so much the Koran, but the current of western philosophy embodied in thinkers such as Nietzsche, Kierkegaard and Heidegger. Qutb's thought -- the blueprint for all subsequent radical Islamist political theology -- is as much a response to 20th-century Europe's experience of "the death of God" as to anything in the Islamic tradition. Qutbism is in no way traditional. Like all fundamentalist ideology, it is unmistakeably modern."
I only post this to show, when talking about Islaam being fundamentally the cause of all these terrorist acts, in fact the fundamentals of these terrorist type groups have more in common with Western ideology with an Islaamic spin to fool & manipulate the gullible, than true Islaamic fundamentals.
26 October 2010, 12:59 PM
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Implementing Shari'a Law across the globe is a central tenet of the Islamist movement. It's the perceived legislature of God and Western infidels' innate belief that law should be the product of reason is considered a crime punishable by death within, for example, Wahhabism.
The war is being fought physically and openly in the Middle East and here as a war of ideas. Education is the primary defence in this country, our sidearm is the application of reason to elevate awareness of the threat.
Right now, ignorance is our Achilles heel.
The war is being fought physically and openly in the Middle East and here as a war of ideas. Education is the primary defence in this country, our sidearm is the application of reason to elevate awareness of the threat.
Right now, ignorance is our Achilles heel.
Les
26 October 2010, 01:04 PM
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26 October 2010, 06:12 PM
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wahabbism, islamism, two terms which you need to define.
I assume by isalmism you are referring to the Omar Bakri and his cult & those with similar goals & ideas (Hizb ut-Tahrir and al-Muhajirun etc)
Their ways and means of attaining there goals are:
1) Nurturing individuals in private upon the ideology of the cult (the underground stage),
2) then with sufficient followers, bring it out in the open (the open calling stage),
3) and then hope to initiate a general revolution (the inevitable confrontation) through which the khilaafah can be established.
But, as using communist revolutionary doctrines is not from the Shar'iyy asbaab (ways & means) in rectifying the people or the land, and where these methods have been implemented (1960s Egypt, 1980s Syria, 1990s Algeria), there was no khilaafah established, it turned out "social justice" was nowhere to be seen amongst the 150,000 or so dead men, women and children whose lives were wasted therein, and the actual condition of the people (as it relates to what is between them and Allaah) did not fundamentally change from what it was.
So in summary, I am with you, & against these power hungry bearded politicians
BUT
You are using terms which are not helpful. Wahhabism? At the forefront of Muslims in the UK warning about these people of misguidance and refuting them and outlining there problems publicly are people who learn from Muhammad Bin Abdul-Wahhaab's many books. This is where the term Wahhabbi comes from. It is used by the ignorant who don't like that his works destroy what they and their fathers are upon in terms innovated principles within the religion.
I have not read all 5 pages and I don't feel the internet is the best place to discuss these things but.............
I assume by isalmism you are referring to the Omar Bakri and his cult & those with similar goals & ideas (Hizb ut-Tahrir and al-Muhajirun etc)
Their ways and means of attaining there goals are:
1) Nurturing individuals in private upon the ideology of the cult (the underground stage),
2) then with sufficient followers, bring it out in the open (the open calling stage),
3) and then hope to initiate a general revolution (the inevitable confrontation) through which the khilaafah can be established.
But, as using communist revolutionary doctrines is not from the Shar'iyy asbaab (ways & means) in rectifying the people or the land, and where these methods have been implemented (1960s Egypt, 1980s Syria, 1990s Algeria), there was no khilaafah established, it turned out "social justice" was nowhere to be seen amongst the 150,000 or so dead men, women and children whose lives were wasted therein, and the actual condition of the people (as it relates to what is between them and Allaah) did not fundamentally change from what it was.
So in summary, I am with you, & against these power hungry bearded politicians
BUT
You are using terms which are not helpful. Wahhabism? At the forefront of Muslims in the UK warning about these people of misguidance and refuting them and outlining there problems publicly are people who learn from Muhammad Bin Abdul-Wahhaab's many books. This is where the term Wahhabbi comes from. It is used by the ignorant who don't like that his works destroy what they and their fathers are upon in terms innovated principles within the religion.
I have not read all 5 pages and I don't feel the internet is the best place to discuss these things but.............
Last edited by tony de wonderful; 26 October 2010 at 06:25 PM.
26 October 2010, 06:24 PM
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I don't disagree that in Islaam the most despicable thing imaginable is to associate partners with Allaah, for example worshipping idols or Jesus etc ....This is THE basic principle within Islaam, hating the act not hating the person who commits the act. I pray for rectification and guidance to the truth for myself fist and foremost and for everyone else as well.
The basic principles within Islaam are not the problem,
John Gray writing in the Independent under the title "How Marx Turned Muslim" highlighting the modern roots of Sayyid Qutb's teachings.:
"Soviet Marxism did not spring from an Orthodox monastery. It was one of the finest flowers of the European Enlightenment. Equally, the USSR was nothing if not an Enlightenment regime. The Soviet state was the vehicle of a westernising project from start to finish. The Cold War was a family quarrel among western ideologies, in which rival versions of political universalism struggled for hegemony.
Today, we are watching a rerun of that uncomprehending struggle. Of course, much has changed. Unlike communism, political Islam does not purport to be secular. For that reason alone, it is a puzzle for the many who still hold to the atavistic 19th-century faith that secularisation is the wave of the future. But the view that something called "the West" is under attack from an alien enemy is as mistaken now as it was in the Cold War.
Islamic fundamentalism is not an indigenous growth. It is an exotic hybrid, bred from the encounter of sections of the Islamic intelligentsia with radical western ideologies. In A Fury for God, Malise Ruthven shows that Sayyid Qutb, an Egyptian executed after imprisonment in 1966 and arguably the most influential ideologue of radical Islam, incorporated many elements derived from European ideology into his thinking. For example, the idea of a revolutionary vanguard of militant believers does not have an Islamic pedigree. It is "a concept imported from Europe, through a lineage that stretches back to the Jacobins, through the Bolsheviks and latter-day Marxist guerrillas such as the Baader-Meinhof gang".
In a brilliantly illuminating and arrestingly readable analysis, Ruthven demonstrates the close affinities between radical Islamist thought and the vanguard of modernist and postmodern thinking in the West. The inspiration for Qutb's thought is not so much the Koran, but the current of western philosophy embodied in thinkers such as Nietzsche, Kierkegaard and Heidegger. Qutb's thought -- the blueprint for all subsequent radical Islamist political theology -- is as much a response to 20th-century Europe's experience of "the death of God" as to anything in the Islamic tradition. Qutbism is in no way traditional. Like all fundamentalist ideology, it is unmistakeably modern."
I only post this to show, when talking about Islaam being fundamentally the cause of all these terrorist acts, in fact the fundamentals of these terrorist type groups have more in common with Western ideology with an Islaamic spin to fool & manipulate the gullible, than true Islaamic fundamentals.
The basic principles within Islaam are not the problem,
John Gray writing in the Independent under the title "How Marx Turned Muslim" highlighting the modern roots of Sayyid Qutb's teachings.:
"Soviet Marxism did not spring from an Orthodox monastery. It was one of the finest flowers of the European Enlightenment. Equally, the USSR was nothing if not an Enlightenment regime. The Soviet state was the vehicle of a westernising project from start to finish. The Cold War was a family quarrel among western ideologies, in which rival versions of political universalism struggled for hegemony.
Today, we are watching a rerun of that uncomprehending struggle. Of course, much has changed. Unlike communism, political Islam does not purport to be secular. For that reason alone, it is a puzzle for the many who still hold to the atavistic 19th-century faith that secularisation is the wave of the future. But the view that something called "the West" is under attack from an alien enemy is as mistaken now as it was in the Cold War.
Islamic fundamentalism is not an indigenous growth. It is an exotic hybrid, bred from the encounter of sections of the Islamic intelligentsia with radical western ideologies. In A Fury for God, Malise Ruthven shows that Sayyid Qutb, an Egyptian executed after imprisonment in 1966 and arguably the most influential ideologue of radical Islam, incorporated many elements derived from European ideology into his thinking. For example, the idea of a revolutionary vanguard of militant believers does not have an Islamic pedigree. It is "a concept imported from Europe, through a lineage that stretches back to the Jacobins, through the Bolsheviks and latter-day Marxist guerrillas such as the Baader-Meinhof gang".
In a brilliantly illuminating and arrestingly readable analysis, Ruthven demonstrates the close affinities between radical Islamist thought and the vanguard of modernist and postmodern thinking in the West. The inspiration for Qutb's thought is not so much the Koran, but the current of western philosophy embodied in thinkers such as Nietzsche, Kierkegaard and Heidegger. Qutb's thought -- the blueprint for all subsequent radical Islamist political theology -- is as much a response to 20th-century Europe's experience of "the death of God" as to anything in the Islamic tradition. Qutbism is in no way traditional. Like all fundamentalist ideology, it is unmistakeably modern."
I only post this to show, when talking about Islaam being fundamentally the cause of all these terrorist acts, in fact the fundamentals of these terrorist type groups have more in common with Western ideology with an Islaamic spin to fool & manipulate the gullible, than true Islaamic fundamentals.
I can see the parallels with crude Marxism very much though. It's a populist movement promising the unconditional to a special mass class (workers vs muslims) and ths the freeing up of the political (thus economic) plutocracy. The Islamists represent new elites to replace the useless old elites....it's not so different from the Soviets kicking out the Tzars!
No Marxist could ever be a Islamist still less a Soviet in reality.
Love your final paragraph BTW attempting blame 'western ideology' (which is what?!), and talking about 'true islam' (which again is what?!).
Last edited by tony de wonderful; 26 October 2010 at 07:15 PM.
26 October 2010, 06:40 PM
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26 October 2010, 06:47 PM
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In complete agreement and utterly relieved, so far. 
wahabbism, islamism, two terms which you need to define.
I assume by isalmism you are referring to the Omar Bakri and his cult & those with similar goals & ideas (Hizb ut-Tahrir and al-Muhajirun etc)
Their ways and means of attaining there goals are:
1) Nurturing individuals in private upon the ideology of the cult (the underground stage),
2) then with sufficient followers, bring it out in the open (the open calling stage),
3) and then hope to initiate a general revolution (the inevitable confrontation) through which the khilaafah can be established.
But, as using communist revolutionary doctrines is not from the Shar'iyy asbaab (ways & means) in rectifying the people or the land, and where these methods have been implemented (1960s Egypt, 1980s Syria, 1990s Algeria), there was no khilaafah established, it turned out "social justice" was nowhere to be seen amongst the 150,000 or so dead men, women and children whose lives were wasted therein, and the actual condition of the people (as it relates to what is between them and Allaah) did not fundamentally change from what it was.
So in summary, I am with you, & against these power hungry bearded politicians
BUT
You are using terms which are not helpful. Wahhabism? At the forefront of Muslims in the UK warning about these people of misguidance and refuting them and outlining there problems publicly are people who learn from Muhammad Bin Abdul-Wahhaab's many books. This is where the term Wahhabbi comes from. It is used by the ignorant who don't like that his works destroy what they and their fathers are upon in terms innovated principles within the religion.
I have not read all 5 pages and I don't feel the internet is the best place to discuss these things but.............
I assume by isalmism you are referring to the Omar Bakri and his cult & those with similar goals & ideas (Hizb ut-Tahrir and al-Muhajirun etc)
Their ways and means of attaining there goals are:
1) Nurturing individuals in private upon the ideology of the cult (the underground stage),
2) then with sufficient followers, bring it out in the open (the open calling stage),
3) and then hope to initiate a general revolution (the inevitable confrontation) through which the khilaafah can be established.
But, as using communist revolutionary doctrines is not from the Shar'iyy asbaab (ways & means) in rectifying the people or the land, and where these methods have been implemented (1960s Egypt, 1980s Syria, 1990s Algeria), there was no khilaafah established, it turned out "social justice" was nowhere to be seen amongst the 150,000 or so dead men, women and children whose lives were wasted therein, and the actual condition of the people (as it relates to what is between them and Allaah) did not fundamentally change from what it was.
So in summary, I am with you, & against these power hungry bearded politicians
BUT
You are using terms which are not helpful. Wahhabism? At the forefront of Muslims in the UK warning about these people of misguidance and refuting them and outlining there problems publicly are people who learn from Muhammad Bin Abdul-Wahhaab's many books. This is where the term Wahhabbi comes from. It is used by the ignorant who don't like that his works destroy what they and their fathers are upon in terms innovated principles within the religion.
I have not read all 5 pages and I don't feel the internet is the best place to discuss these things but.............
26 October 2010, 06:56 PM
#148
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Islamism - what a wicked faith. Interesting read AbbasSTI, but the fact remains that the fundamental drivers of hate and bile to any other religion or group exists within the basic principles of the Islamic religion, thus enabling the manipulation of weak minded idiots in the first place.
The fact is your entire religion is not helpful, not the fact that JT may have used a term that you disagree with.
DCI
The fact is your entire religion is not helpful, not the fact that JT may have used a term that you disagree with.
DCI
26 October 2010, 07:04 PM
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26 October 2010, 07:21 PM
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Why do i find myself agreeing with Jamie ??
Dear *insert whichever Idol you wish here* , why???
Taylor, you are, as per usual, full of bluster. answer the questions put to YOU, stop dodging them and moving across to other questions, man.
Dear *insert whichever Idol you wish here* , why???
Taylor, you are, as per usual, full of bluster. answer the questions put to YOU, stop dodging them and moving across to other questions, man.