Islamism
26 October 2010, 08:27 PM
#152
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Nevertheless, if you would be good enough to ask again the questions you feel I've 'dodged', I will happily answer them or, indeed, explain why I am unable.
26 October 2010, 10:03 PM
#155
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I cited Wahhabism as an example of a sect within broader Islamist ideology, where Shari'a Law is percieved as the legislature of God and Western infidels' innate belief that law should be the product of reason is considered a crime punishable by death.
It seems my initial optimisitic response to your post was premature as, having condemned Qtabism, you then go on to espouse the virtues of Wahhabism. Rather than criticising Islamism, you're criticising one form of it in order to promote another.
The nuances and jostling for position are besides the point. Both wish death upon the West, they're simply fighting over which means to this end is correct.
Initially attractive, but ultimately dangerous, much like the Trojan horse.
It seems my initial optimisitic response to your post was premature as, having condemned Qtabism, you then go on to espouse the virtues of Wahhabism. Rather than criticising Islamism, you're criticising one form of it in order to promote another.
The nuances and jostling for position are besides the point. Both wish death upon the West, they're simply fighting over which means to this end is correct.
Initially attractive, but ultimately dangerous, much like the Trojan horse.
wahabbism, islamism, two terms which you need to define.
I assume by isalmism you are referring to the Omar Bakri and his cult & those with similar goals & ideas (Hizb ut-Tahrir and al-Muhajirun etc)
Their ways and means of attaining there goals are:
1) Nurturing individuals in private upon the ideology of the cult (the underground stage),
2) then with sufficient followers, bring it out in the open (the open calling stage),
3) and then hope to initiate a general revolution (the inevitable confrontation) through which the khilaafah can be established.
But, as using communist revolutionary doctrines is not from the Shar'iyy asbaab (ways & means) in rectifying the people or the land, and where these methods have been implemented (1960s Egypt, 1980s Syria, 1990s Algeria), there was no khilaafah established, it turned out "social justice" was nowhere to be seen amongst the 150,000 or so dead men, women and children whose lives were wasted therein, and the actual condition of the people (as it relates to what is between them and Allaah) did not fundamentally change from what it was.
So in summary, I am with you, & against these power hungry bearded politicians
BUT
You are using terms which are not helpful. Wahhabism? At the forefront of Muslims in the UK warning about these people of misguidance and refuting them and outlining there problems publicly are people who learn from Muhammad Bin Abdul-Wahhaab's many books. This is where the term Wahhabbi comes from. It is used by the ignorant who don't like that his works destroy what they and their fathers are upon in terms innovated principles within the religion.
I have not read all 5 pages and I don't feel the internet is the best place to discuss these things but.............
I assume by isalmism you are referring to the Omar Bakri and his cult & those with similar goals & ideas (Hizb ut-Tahrir and al-Muhajirun etc)
Their ways and means of attaining there goals are:
1) Nurturing individuals in private upon the ideology of the cult (the underground stage),
2) then with sufficient followers, bring it out in the open (the open calling stage),
3) and then hope to initiate a general revolution (the inevitable confrontation) through which the khilaafah can be established.
But, as using communist revolutionary doctrines is not from the Shar'iyy asbaab (ways & means) in rectifying the people or the land, and where these methods have been implemented (1960s Egypt, 1980s Syria, 1990s Algeria), there was no khilaafah established, it turned out "social justice" was nowhere to be seen amongst the 150,000 or so dead men, women and children whose lives were wasted therein, and the actual condition of the people (as it relates to what is between them and Allaah) did not fundamentally change from what it was.
So in summary, I am with you, & against these power hungry bearded politicians
BUT
You are using terms which are not helpful. Wahhabism? At the forefront of Muslims in the UK warning about these people of misguidance and refuting them and outlining there problems publicly are people who learn from Muhammad Bin Abdul-Wahhaab's many books. This is where the term Wahhabbi comes from. It is used by the ignorant who don't like that his works destroy what they and their fathers are upon in terms innovated principles within the religion.
I have not read all 5 pages and I don't feel the internet is the best place to discuss these things but.............
26 October 2010, 10:19 PM
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26 October 2010, 10:20 PM
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26 October 2010, 10:25 PM
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I hate to break this to you but if Tony Blairs sister in law just reverted to Islam and every day 1000s are doing just that. Islam is the fastes growing religion in the world 1.2 billion and growing.
26 October 2010, 11:46 PM
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Qutb's thought -- the blueprint for all subsequent radical Islamist political theology -- is as much a response to 20th-century Europe's experience of "the death of God" as to anything in the Islamic tradition. Qutbism is in no way traditional. Like all fundamentalist ideology, it is unmistakeably modern."
I only post this to show, when talking about Islaam being fundamentally the cause of all these terrorist acts, in fact the fundamentals of these terrorist type groups have more in common with Western ideology with an Islaamic spin to fool & manipulate the gullible, than true Islaamic fundamentals.
I only post this to show, when talking about Islaam being fundamentally the cause of all these terrorist acts, in fact the fundamentals of these terrorist type groups have more in common with Western ideology with an Islaamic spin to fool & manipulate the gullible, than true Islaamic fundamentals.
I think the Wahhabists are just disappointed that they didn't think of it.
27 October 2010, 02:35 AM
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This link given before?
Muslim Demographics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU
27 October 2010, 07:03 AM
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Yeah you re right!
This link given before?
Muslim Demographics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU
This link given before?
Muslim Demographics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU
) world domination 
27 October 2010, 12:22 PM
#166
That is an idiotic article despite the sound analysis that modern Islamism borrows much from the hard left. I doubt Qutb ever read Nietzsche for a start, and there is nothing from the enlightenment that directly leads to the Soviets, that is absolutely retarded and just a lazy analysis. Marx was a heavy weight intellectual sure, but he was not a Soviet!. The Soviets were just another elite! The Baader-Meinhof gang most certainly were not intellectuals!
I can see the parallels with crude Marxism very much though. It's a populist movement promising the unconditional to a special mass class (workers vs muslims) and ths the freeing up of the political (thus economic) plutocracy. The Islamists represent new elites to replace the useless old elites....it's not so different from the Soviets kicking out the Tzars!
No Marxist could ever be a Islamist still less a Soviet in reality.
Love your final paragraph BTW attempting blame 'western ideology' (which is what?!), and talking about 'true islam' (which again is what?!).
I can see the parallels with crude Marxism very much though. It's a populist movement promising the unconditional to a special mass class (workers vs muslims) and ths the freeing up of the political (thus economic) plutocracy. The Islamists represent new elites to replace the useless old elites....it's not so different from the Soviets kicking out the Tzars!
No Marxist could ever be a Islamist still less a Soviet in reality.
Love your final paragraph BTW attempting blame 'western ideology' (which is what?!), and talking about 'true islam' (which again is what?!).
http://www.themadkhalis.com/md/artic...ayyid-qutb.cfm
Contemporary members of the Muslim Brotherhood acknowledge that Qutb was influenced by Leninist revolutionary methodology. Ibrahim al-Houdaiby writes in an article "Four Decades After Sayyid Qutb's Execution"
"In "Milestones" Qutb presents a manifesto for change, one heavily influenced by Lenin's "What is to be done," with the clear Islamization of its basic notions. He argued that society was suffering from "jahiliyya" (a state of ignorance which preceded the revelation of Islam) and that consequently, there is no room for middle ground between Islamists and their societies."
Though he acknowledged this much, al-Houdaiby makes a very miserable attempt to defend Sayyid Qutb, trying to absolve him of radicalism, and attempting likewise to absolve the Muslim Brotherhood in general, from responsibility for the spread of Qutb's extremist, alien to Islam ideologies.
Paul Berman writes in an article published in the New York Times, 23rd March 2003:
"The few had to gather themselves together into what Qutb in "Milestones" called a vanguard - a term that he must have borrowed from Lenin ..."
In "Sayyid Qutb: The Father of Al-Qaida", published in the Independent in August 2006, Daniel Martin quotes from Lawrence Wright observing about the book "Milestones":
"...Its ringing apocalyptic tone may be compared with Rousseau's Social Contract and Lenin's What Is to Be Done? - with similar bloody consequences."
Rod Dreher writes in the Dallas Morning News (27th August 2006):
"What is to be done? Lenin famously asked about Czarist Russia. Qutb's answer to the same question about the West was, in part, "Milestones," a Leninist-style tract advocating worldwide Islamic revolution."
As mentioned previously, I don't feel the internet is the best place to discuss these very important issues, face to face & we can really understand each other. I am only trying to explain that these terrorists and seekers of political power are misguided individuals and far removed from true Islaam.
True Islaam is following the Quraan & Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allaah be upon him) with the understanding of his companions (those who received the explanation first hand)
27 October 2010, 12:36 PM
#168
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Please read this article:
http://www.themadkhalis.com/md/artic...ayyid-qutb.cfm
Contemporary members of the Muslim Brotherhood acknowledge that Qutb was influenced by Leninist revolutionary methodology. Ibrahim al-Houdaiby writes in an article "Four Decades After Sayyid Qutb's Execution"
"In "Milestones" Qutb presents a manifesto for change, one heavily influenced by Lenin's "What is to be done," with the clear Islamization of its basic notions. He argued that society was suffering from "jahiliyya" (a state of ignorance which preceded the revelation of Islam) and that consequently, there is no room for middle ground between Islamists and their societies."
Though he acknowledged this much, al-Houdaiby makes a very miserable attempt to defend Sayyid Qutb, trying to absolve him of radicalism, and attempting likewise to absolve the Muslim Brotherhood in general, from responsibility for the spread of Qutb's extremist, alien to Islam ideologies.
Paul Berman writes in an article published in the New York Times, 23rd March 2003:
"The few had to gather themselves together into what Qutb in "Milestones" called a vanguard - a term that he must have borrowed from Lenin ..."
In "Sayyid Qutb: The Father of Al-Qaida", published in the Independent in August 2006, Daniel Martin quotes from Lawrence Wright observing about the book "Milestones":
"...Its ringing apocalyptic tone may be compared with Rousseau's Social Contract and Lenin's What Is to Be Done? - with similar bloody consequences."
Rod Dreher writes in the Dallas Morning News (27th August 2006):
"What is to be done? Lenin famously asked about Czarist Russia. Qutb's answer to the same question about the West was, in part, "Milestones," a Leninist-style tract advocating worldwide Islamic revolution."
As mentioned previously, I don't feel the internet is the best place to discuss these very important issues, face to face & we can really understand each other. I am only trying to explain that these terrorists and seekers of political power are misguided individuals and far removed from true Islaam.
True Islaam is following the Quraan & Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allaah be upon him) with the understanding of his companions (those who received the explanation first hand)
http://www.themadkhalis.com/md/artic...ayyid-qutb.cfm
Contemporary members of the Muslim Brotherhood acknowledge that Qutb was influenced by Leninist revolutionary methodology. Ibrahim al-Houdaiby writes in an article "Four Decades After Sayyid Qutb's Execution"
"In "Milestones" Qutb presents a manifesto for change, one heavily influenced by Lenin's "What is to be done," with the clear Islamization of its basic notions. He argued that society was suffering from "jahiliyya" (a state of ignorance which preceded the revelation of Islam) and that consequently, there is no room for middle ground between Islamists and their societies."
Though he acknowledged this much, al-Houdaiby makes a very miserable attempt to defend Sayyid Qutb, trying to absolve him of radicalism, and attempting likewise to absolve the Muslim Brotherhood in general, from responsibility for the spread of Qutb's extremist, alien to Islam ideologies.
Paul Berman writes in an article published in the New York Times, 23rd March 2003:
"The few had to gather themselves together into what Qutb in "Milestones" called a vanguard - a term that he must have borrowed from Lenin ..."
In "Sayyid Qutb: The Father of Al-Qaida", published in the Independent in August 2006, Daniel Martin quotes from Lawrence Wright observing about the book "Milestones":
"...Its ringing apocalyptic tone may be compared with Rousseau's Social Contract and Lenin's What Is to Be Done? - with similar bloody consequences."
Rod Dreher writes in the Dallas Morning News (27th August 2006):
"What is to be done? Lenin famously asked about Czarist Russia. Qutb's answer to the same question about the West was, in part, "Milestones," a Leninist-style tract advocating worldwide Islamic revolution."
As mentioned previously, I don't feel the internet is the best place to discuss these very important issues, face to face & we can really understand each other. I am only trying to explain that these terrorists and seekers of political power are misguided individuals and far removed from true Islaam.
True Islaam is following the Quraan & Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing of Allaah be upon him) with the understanding of his companions (those who received the explanation first hand)
I'd question you about what 'true Islam' is since I'm sure the Islamists regard themselves as 'true muslims'. You sound like you are pushing an immutable, ultra-conservative idea of what 'islam' is...ironically since that is what the Islamists are doing. Religions innovate and progress over time...anything else is fundamantalism and retorgrade.
27 October 2010, 01:24 PM
#169
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And to be clear, Sharia Law covers a lot of ground.
Last edited by Martin2005; 27 October 2010 at 01:25 PM.
27 October 2010, 01:35 PM
#170
The esteemed and late Shaikh Muhammad bin Salih al-'Uthaimin of Saudi Arabia stated, during a tele-link in the evening of Friday, 28th July 2000, to an audience in the city of Birmingham, UK:
... Likewise I invite you to have respect for those people who have the right that they should be respected, those between whom there is an agreement (of protection) for you. For the land in which you are living is such that there is an agreement between you and them. If this were not the case they would have killed you or expelled you. So preserve this agreement, and do not prove treacherous to it, since treachery is a sign of the hypocrites, and it is not from the way of the Believers. And know that it is authentically reported from the Prophet that he said,
Whoever kills one who is under and agreement of protection will not smell the fragrance of Paradise.
Do not be fooled by those sayings of the foolish people, those who say "Those people are Non-Muslims, so their wealth is lawful for us (to misappropriate or take by way of murder and killing)." For by Allaah - this is a lie. A lie about Allaah's Religion, and a lie about Islamic societies.
So we may not say that it is lawful to be treacherous towards people whom we have an agreement with.
O my brothers. O youth. O Muslims. Be truthful in your buying and selling, and renting, and leasing, and in all mutual transactions. Because truthfulness is from the characteristics of the Believers, and Allaah - the Most High - has commanded truthfulness - in the saying of Allaah - the Most High -
O you who believe - fear and keep you duty to Allaah and be with the truthful
And the Prophet encouraged truthfulness and said,
Adhere to truthfulness, because truthfulness leads to goodness, and goodness leads to Paradise. And a person will continue to be truthful, and strive to be truthful until he will be written down with Allaah as a truthful person.
And he warned against falsehood, and said,
Beware of falsehood, because falsehood leads to wickedness, and wickedness leads to the Fire. And a person will continue lying, and striving to lie until he is written down with Allaah as a great liar.
O my brother Muslims. O youth. Be true in your sayings with your brothers, and with those Non-Muslims whom you live along with - so that you will be inviters to the Religion of Islaam, by your actions and in reality. So how many people there are who first entered into Islaam because of the behaviour and manners of the Muslims, and their truthfulness, and their being true in their dealings.
27 October 2010, 02:12 PM
#171
) Our Lord, may He be Glorified and Exalted, indicated this fact in his saying: "This day I have completed your Religion for you, and I have perfected My favor upon you, and I am pleased with Islaam as a Religion for you." [Surat-ul-Maa’idah: 3]
This is why it is authentically reported on the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) from numerous paths of narration that he said: “I have not left anything that will bring you closer to Allaah and distance you from the Hellfire, except that I have commanded you with it. And I have not left anything that will bring you closer to the Hellfire and distance you from Allaah except that I have forbade you from it.” So there has not been left any room for amending anything from it, whether it be a simple or a trivial thing being amended.
The Islamists on the other hand, are not firmly grounded in these fundamental principles and have gone wildly astray in both their goals and the ways & means in obtaining them.
27 October 2010, 05:50 PM
#172
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27 October 2010, 07:03 PM
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Thank you. I'm an infidel, AbbasSTI, and a secular humanist. How does this sit with Wahabbi teachings? Additionally, how is apostasy viewed by these people?
Wahhabbism, is not a sect, in my opinion. It is a term coined by people who dislike the teachings of Muhammad bin Abdul-Wahhaab as I previously mentioned.
I didn't praise whabbism, as I don't consider it as any more than a term used by people who loosely relate it to terrorism without any source or evidence.
Please see below a transcription of a talk given by someone who has written many explanations of the works of Shaykul Islaam Muhammad bin Abdul-Wahhaab.
The esteemed and late Shaikh Muhammad bin Salih al-'Uthaimin of Saudi Arabia stated, during a tele-link in the evening of Friday, 28th July 2000, to an audience in the city of Birmingham, UK:
... Likewise I invite you to have respect for those people who have the right that they should be respected, those between whom there is an agreement (of protection) for you. For the land in which you are living is such that there is an agreement between you and them. If this were not the case they would have killed you or expelled you. So preserve this agreement, and do not prove treacherous to it, since treachery is a sign of the hypocrites, and it is not from the way of the Believers. And know that it is authentically reported from the Prophet that he said,
Whoever kills one who is under and agreement of protection will not smell the fragrance of Paradise.
Do not be fooled by those sayings of the foolish people, those who say "Those people are Non-Muslims, so their wealth is lawful for us (to misappropriate or take by way of murder and killing)." For by Allaah - this is a lie. A lie about Allaah's Religion, and a lie about Islamic societies.
So we may not say that it is lawful to be treacherous towards people whom we have an agreement with.
O my brothers. O youth. O Muslims. Be truthful in your buying and selling, and renting, and leasing, and in all mutual transactions. Because truthfulness is from the characteristics of the Believers, and Allaah - the Most High - has commanded truthfulness - in the saying of Allaah - the Most High -
O you who believe - fear and keep you duty to Allaah and be with the truthful
And the Prophet encouraged truthfulness and said,
Adhere to truthfulness, because truthfulness leads to goodness, and goodness leads to Paradise. And a person will continue to be truthful, and strive to be truthful until he will be written down with Allaah as a truthful person.
And he warned against falsehood, and said,
Beware of falsehood, because falsehood leads to wickedness, and wickedness leads to the Fire. And a person will continue lying, and striving to lie until he is written down with Allaah as a great liar.
O my brother Muslims. O youth. Be true in your sayings with your brothers, and with those Non-Muslims whom you live along with - so that you will be inviters to the Religion of Islaam, by your actions and in reality. So how many people there are who first entered into Islaam because of the behaviour and manners of the Muslims, and their truthfulness, and their being true in their dealings.
I didn't praise whabbism, as I don't consider it as any more than a term used by people who loosely relate it to terrorism without any source or evidence.
Please see below a transcription of a talk given by someone who has written many explanations of the works of Shaykul Islaam Muhammad bin Abdul-Wahhaab.
The esteemed and late Shaikh Muhammad bin Salih al-'Uthaimin of Saudi Arabia stated, during a tele-link in the evening of Friday, 28th July 2000, to an audience in the city of Birmingham, UK:
... Likewise I invite you to have respect for those people who have the right that they should be respected, those between whom there is an agreement (of protection) for you. For the land in which you are living is such that there is an agreement between you and them. If this were not the case they would have killed you or expelled you. So preserve this agreement, and do not prove treacherous to it, since treachery is a sign of the hypocrites, and it is not from the way of the Believers. And know that it is authentically reported from the Prophet that he said,
Whoever kills one who is under and agreement of protection will not smell the fragrance of Paradise.
Do not be fooled by those sayings of the foolish people, those who say "Those people are Non-Muslims, so their wealth is lawful for us (to misappropriate or take by way of murder and killing)." For by Allaah - this is a lie. A lie about Allaah's Religion, and a lie about Islamic societies.
So we may not say that it is lawful to be treacherous towards people whom we have an agreement with.
O my brothers. O youth. O Muslims. Be truthful in your buying and selling, and renting, and leasing, and in all mutual transactions. Because truthfulness is from the characteristics of the Believers, and Allaah - the Most High - has commanded truthfulness - in the saying of Allaah - the Most High -
O you who believe - fear and keep you duty to Allaah and be with the truthful
And the Prophet encouraged truthfulness and said,
Adhere to truthfulness, because truthfulness leads to goodness, and goodness leads to Paradise. And a person will continue to be truthful, and strive to be truthful until he will be written down with Allaah as a truthful person.
And he warned against falsehood, and said,
Beware of falsehood, because falsehood leads to wickedness, and wickedness leads to the Fire. And a person will continue lying, and striving to lie until he is written down with Allaah as a great liar.
O my brother Muslims. O youth. Be true in your sayings with your brothers, and with those Non-Muslims whom you live along with - so that you will be inviters to the Religion of Islaam, by your actions and in reality. So how many people there are who first entered into Islaam because of the behaviour and manners of the Muslims, and their truthfulness, and their being true in their dealings.
27 October 2010, 10:13 PM
#176
If it was just me and you, I would say I was a believer
If it was me and a Jew or Christian, then I am a Muslim,
If it is me and a Shiaa, then I am a Sunni,
If it is me and a Suffee, tablighi, Ashari, Qutubi, etc then I am a Salafi, which sect? Ahlus Sunnah wal Jammaah - The people of Sunnah & who unite upon that.
So I can't tell you about Wahabbi teachings (again please re-read my previous posts)
Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan (may Allaah preserve him)(He is currently a member of the Permanent Committee for Islamic Research and Fataawa in Saudi) was asked:
[Q33]: I accepted Islaam three months ago, and I have two disbelieving parents. How do I interact with them? And am I supposed to hate them in an all-inclusive way?
He replied:
[A33]: Interacting (with them) is to be done as Allaah, the Mighty and Majestic, has said:
"You do not find any people who believe in Allaah
and the Last Day loving those who have opposed
Allaah and His Messenger, even their own fathers."
So you are to hate them for Allaah's sake, the Mighty and Majestic. And as for kindness, being dutiful and kind to them, then Allaah the Exalted has said:
"And if they strive to make you ascribe partners with Me,
that which you have no knowledge of, then do not obey them,
and accompany them in the worldly life with kindness."
This is from the angle of repaying kindness. So the parent has the right to kindness and good treatment. However, as for loving them in one's heart, then do not ever love the disbelievers. When it became clear to Ibraaheem that his father was an enemy to Allaah, he freed himself of him.
[Source: Duroos fee Nawaaqidh al-Islaam, p.202-203] (p.90-91 of the English translation)
* * *
And he said, may Allaah preserve him, in a discussion of the permissible ways of interaction with disbelievers:
[4]: It is permissible for us to respond kindly to any kindness that they have shown to us. Allaah, the Exalted One, has said:
"Allaah does not forbid you from being kind and just
with those who have not fought you over the Religion,
nor have they expelled you from your homelands.
Verily, Allaah loves those who are just."
So if they have done something nice for the Muslims, then the Muslims may respond with something nice and compensate them. This is not from the angle of loving them, rather it is only from the angle of compensation.
Furthermore, it is obligatory to be kind to one's disbelieving parents, without loving them. Allaah, the Exalted One, has said:
"And We have admonished mankind regarding his parents.
His mother carried him (in the womb) through hardships
upon hardships, and then he was weaned after two years.
(And We have admonished him) to be grateful to Me,
and to his parents. To Me is the Return."
"And if they strive to make you ascribe partners with Me,
that which you have no knowledge of, then do not obey them,
and accompany them in the worldly life with kindness.
And follow the path of those who repent to Me."
So it is obligatory to be kind to one's parents, even if they are disbelievers, however one may not love them in his heart:
"You do not find any people who believe in Allaah
and the Last Day loving those who have opposed Allaah
and His Messenger, even their own fathers or children."
Loving them is one thing, and good dealings with them is another.
Umm Salamah, the daughter of Aboo Bakr, who was a polytheist, came seeking some money. So Asmaa' went to the Messenger of Allaah sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) and said to him, "Verily my mother has come and she is inclined, meaning inclined to re-establish ties, so should I establish ties with her?" He replied,
"Yes, keep ties with your mother."
Thus, worldly affairs, business dealings, compensations, and exchanges (of good treatment) between Muslims and disbelievers in beneficial affairs that do not affect the Religion are permissible. Similarly, diplomatic representation between embassies is also not harmful. The polytheists used to send messengers to the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) to negotiate with him. They would enter upon him while he was in the masjid and negotiate with him. These kinds of affairs are not things that show loyalty, rather they are merely permissible affairs of benefit between the Muslims and the disbelievers.
So it is binding that we make a distinction between this and that. Some people mix up the issues that are permissible with those that are impermissible. From them are those who say, "It is permissible to love the disbelievers, because Allaah has allowed us to interact with them and to marry the Kitaabiyyaat (Jewish and Christian women), so then it is permissible to love them and not make a distinction between us and them." This person has fallen short in his understanding (of hating the disbelievers).
On the other hand, there are people who go overboard (in hating the disbelievers). They are those who say, "It is not permissible to keep any ties whatsoever with the disbelievers, not for the sake of business, not compensation, and not repaying their kindness, as all of these affairs are displays of allegiance."
So we say to them: These affairs are not displays of allegiance. One must make a distinction between the two, between the position of the extremist and that of the neglectful one. The Religion is a middle course, and there is no extremism and no negligence in it.
So it is obligatory on us to be acquainted with these different types of interactions with the disbelievers, and to know which of them are permissible and which are not, especially in this time when there are so many people who speak about affairs of the Religion without knowledge, or they speak about the Religion based on desires.
So it is obligatory on the student of knowledge to know the legislated rulings about these affairs, as it is an important affair, since it is directly related to the Muslim's beliefs.
[Source: Duroos fee Nawaaqidh al-Islaam, p.89-91] (p.110-114 of the English translation)
The only reason I posted in this thread is to show that Islaam, when accompanied by the correct understanding (that of the companions of the Prophet sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) is not something you should worry about.
27 October 2010, 11:08 PM
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Interesting post, AbbasSTI, thank you. With reference to your final paragraph, could you give us an idiot's guide to the elements within Islam that we do need to worry about and means of recognising them? Also, could you tell us what the followers of the 'correct' teachings are doing to moderate the 'incorrect' adherants? Finally, could you just go over the apostasy thing, please? What happens if a Muslim chooses to leave Islam? Thank you.
Wahabbism again? Can you please re-read my previous points on this subject.
If it was just me and you, I would say I was a believer
If it was me and a Jew or Christian, then I am a Muslim,
If it is me and a Shiaa, then I am a Sunni,
If it is me and a Suffee, tablighi, Ashari, Qutubi, etc then I am a Salafi, which sect? Ahlus Sunnah wal Jammaah - The people of Sunnah & who unite upon that.
So I can't tell you about Wahabbi teachings (again please re-read my previous posts)
Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan (may Allaah preserve him)(He is currently a member of the Permanent Committee for Islamic Research and Fataawa in Saudi) was asked:
[Q33]: I accepted Islaam three months ago, and I have two disbelieving parents. How do I interact with them? And am I supposed to hate them in an all-inclusive way?
He replied:
[A33]: Interacting (with them) is to be done as Allaah, the Mighty and Majestic, has said:
"You do not find any people who believe in Allaah
and the Last Day loving those who have opposed
Allaah and His Messenger, even their own fathers."
So you are to hate them for Allaah's sake, the Mighty and Majestic. And as for kindness, being dutiful and kind to them, then Allaah the Exalted has said:
"And if they strive to make you ascribe partners with Me,
that which you have no knowledge of, then do not obey them,
and accompany them in the worldly life with kindness."
This is from the angle of repaying kindness. So the parent has the right to kindness and good treatment. However, as for loving them in one's heart, then do not ever love the disbelievers. When it became clear to Ibraaheem that his father was an enemy to Allaah, he freed himself of him.
[Source: Duroos fee Nawaaqidh al-Islaam, p.202-203] (p.90-91 of the English translation)
* * *
And he said, may Allaah preserve him, in a discussion of the permissible ways of interaction with disbelievers:
[4]: It is permissible for us to respond kindly to any kindness that they have shown to us. Allaah, the Exalted One, has said:
"Allaah does not forbid you from being kind and just
with those who have not fought you over the Religion,
nor have they expelled you from your homelands.
Verily, Allaah loves those who are just."
So if they have done something nice for the Muslims, then the Muslims may respond with something nice and compensate them. This is not from the angle of loving them, rather it is only from the angle of compensation.
Furthermore, it is obligatory to be kind to one's disbelieving parents, without loving them. Allaah, the Exalted One, has said:
"And We have admonished mankind regarding his parents.
His mother carried him (in the womb) through hardships
upon hardships, and then he was weaned after two years.
(And We have admonished him) to be grateful to Me,
and to his parents. To Me is the Return."
"And if they strive to make you ascribe partners with Me,
that which you have no knowledge of, then do not obey them,
and accompany them in the worldly life with kindness.
And follow the path of those who repent to Me."
So it is obligatory to be kind to one's parents, even if they are disbelievers, however one may not love them in his heart:
"You do not find any people who believe in Allaah
and the Last Day loving those who have opposed Allaah
and His Messenger, even their own fathers or children."
Loving them is one thing, and good dealings with them is another.
Umm Salamah, the daughter of Aboo Bakr, who was a polytheist, came seeking some money. So Asmaa' went to the Messenger of Allaah sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) and said to him, "Verily my mother has come and she is inclined, meaning inclined to re-establish ties, so should I establish ties with her?" He replied,
"Yes, keep ties with your mother."
Thus, worldly affairs, business dealings, compensations, and exchanges (of good treatment) between Muslims and disbelievers in beneficial affairs that do not affect the Religion are permissible. Similarly, diplomatic representation between embassies is also not harmful. The polytheists used to send messengers to the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) to negotiate with him. They would enter upon him while he was in the masjid and negotiate with him. These kinds of affairs are not things that show loyalty, rather they are merely permissible affairs of benefit between the Muslims and the disbelievers.
So it is binding that we make a distinction between this and that. Some people mix up the issues that are permissible with those that are impermissible. From them are those who say, "It is permissible to love the disbelievers, because Allaah has allowed us to interact with them and to marry the Kitaabiyyaat (Jewish and Christian women), so then it is permissible to love them and not make a distinction between us and them." This person has fallen short in his understanding (of hating the disbelievers).
On the other hand, there are people who go overboard (in hating the disbelievers). They are those who say, "It is not permissible to keep any ties whatsoever with the disbelievers, not for the sake of business, not compensation, and not repaying their kindness, as all of these affairs are displays of allegiance."
So we say to them: These affairs are not displays of allegiance. One must make a distinction between the two, between the position of the extremist and that of the neglectful one. The Religion is a middle course, and there is no extremism and no negligence in it.
So it is obligatory on us to be acquainted with these different types of interactions with the disbelievers, and to know which of them are permissible and which are not, especially in this time when there are so many people who speak about affairs of the Religion without knowledge, or they speak about the Religion based on desires.
So it is obligatory on the student of knowledge to know the legislated rulings about these affairs, as it is an important affair, since it is directly related to the Muslim's beliefs.
[Source: Duroos fee Nawaaqidh al-Islaam, p.89-91] (p.110-114 of the English translation)
The only reason I posted in this thread is to show that Islaam, when accompanied by the correct understanding (that of the companions of the Prophet sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) is not something you should worry about.
If it was just me and you, I would say I was a believer
If it was me and a Jew or Christian, then I am a Muslim,
If it is me and a Shiaa, then I am a Sunni,
If it is me and a Suffee, tablighi, Ashari, Qutubi, etc then I am a Salafi, which sect? Ahlus Sunnah wal Jammaah - The people of Sunnah & who unite upon that.
So I can't tell you about Wahabbi teachings (again please re-read my previous posts)
Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan (may Allaah preserve him)(He is currently a member of the Permanent Committee for Islamic Research and Fataawa in Saudi) was asked:
[Q33]: I accepted Islaam three months ago, and I have two disbelieving parents. How do I interact with them? And am I supposed to hate them in an all-inclusive way?
He replied:
[A33]: Interacting (with them) is to be done as Allaah, the Mighty and Majestic, has said:
"You do not find any people who believe in Allaah
and the Last Day loving those who have opposed
Allaah and His Messenger, even their own fathers."
So you are to hate them for Allaah's sake, the Mighty and Majestic. And as for kindness, being dutiful and kind to them, then Allaah the Exalted has said:
"And if they strive to make you ascribe partners with Me,
that which you have no knowledge of, then do not obey them,
and accompany them in the worldly life with kindness."
This is from the angle of repaying kindness. So the parent has the right to kindness and good treatment. However, as for loving them in one's heart, then do not ever love the disbelievers. When it became clear to Ibraaheem that his father was an enemy to Allaah, he freed himself of him.
[Source: Duroos fee Nawaaqidh al-Islaam, p.202-203] (p.90-91 of the English translation)
* * *
And he said, may Allaah preserve him, in a discussion of the permissible ways of interaction with disbelievers:
[4]: It is permissible for us to respond kindly to any kindness that they have shown to us. Allaah, the Exalted One, has said:
"Allaah does not forbid you from being kind and just
with those who have not fought you over the Religion,
nor have they expelled you from your homelands.
Verily, Allaah loves those who are just."
So if they have done something nice for the Muslims, then the Muslims may respond with something nice and compensate them. This is not from the angle of loving them, rather it is only from the angle of compensation.
Furthermore, it is obligatory to be kind to one's disbelieving parents, without loving them. Allaah, the Exalted One, has said:
"And We have admonished mankind regarding his parents.
His mother carried him (in the womb) through hardships
upon hardships, and then he was weaned after two years.
(And We have admonished him) to be grateful to Me,
and to his parents. To Me is the Return."
"And if they strive to make you ascribe partners with Me,
that which you have no knowledge of, then do not obey them,
and accompany them in the worldly life with kindness.
And follow the path of those who repent to Me."
So it is obligatory to be kind to one's parents, even if they are disbelievers, however one may not love them in his heart:
"You do not find any people who believe in Allaah
and the Last Day loving those who have opposed Allaah
and His Messenger, even their own fathers or children."
Loving them is one thing, and good dealings with them is another.
Umm Salamah, the daughter of Aboo Bakr, who was a polytheist, came seeking some money. So Asmaa' went to the Messenger of Allaah sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) and said to him, "Verily my mother has come and she is inclined, meaning inclined to re-establish ties, so should I establish ties with her?" He replied,
"Yes, keep ties with your mother."
Thus, worldly affairs, business dealings, compensations, and exchanges (of good treatment) between Muslims and disbelievers in beneficial affairs that do not affect the Religion are permissible. Similarly, diplomatic representation between embassies is also not harmful. The polytheists used to send messengers to the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) to negotiate with him. They would enter upon him while he was in the masjid and negotiate with him. These kinds of affairs are not things that show loyalty, rather they are merely permissible affairs of benefit between the Muslims and the disbelievers.
So it is binding that we make a distinction between this and that. Some people mix up the issues that are permissible with those that are impermissible. From them are those who say, "It is permissible to love the disbelievers, because Allaah has allowed us to interact with them and to marry the Kitaabiyyaat (Jewish and Christian women), so then it is permissible to love them and not make a distinction between us and them." This person has fallen short in his understanding (of hating the disbelievers).
On the other hand, there are people who go overboard (in hating the disbelievers). They are those who say, "It is not permissible to keep any ties whatsoever with the disbelievers, not for the sake of business, not compensation, and not repaying their kindness, as all of these affairs are displays of allegiance."
So we say to them: These affairs are not displays of allegiance. One must make a distinction between the two, between the position of the extremist and that of the neglectful one. The Religion is a middle course, and there is no extremism and no negligence in it.
So it is obligatory on us to be acquainted with these different types of interactions with the disbelievers, and to know which of them are permissible and which are not, especially in this time when there are so many people who speak about affairs of the Religion without knowledge, or they speak about the Religion based on desires.
So it is obligatory on the student of knowledge to know the legislated rulings about these affairs, as it is an important affair, since it is directly related to the Muslim's beliefs.
[Source: Duroos fee Nawaaqidh al-Islaam, p.89-91] (p.110-114 of the English translation)
The only reason I posted in this thread is to show that Islaam, when accompanied by the correct understanding (that of the companions of the Prophet sallallaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) is not something you should worry about.
Last edited by JTaylor; 28 October 2010 at 02:58 AM.
28 October 2010, 11:39 AM
#180
Interesting post, AbbasSTI, thank you. With reference to your final paragraph, could you give us an idiot's guide to the elements within Islam that we do need to worry about and means of recognising them? Also, could you tell us what the followers of the 'correct' teachings are doing to moderate the 'incorrect' adherants? Finally, could you just go over the apostasy thing, please? What happens if a Muslim chooses to leave Islam? Thank you.
Excerpt from: The Khawarij ideology, by Sheikh Fawzaan:
This is the exact methodology of the Khawaarij. It includes three things:
1. Making Takfir (removing from the fold of Islaam) of other Muslims.
2. Renouncing obedience to the leader or government.
3. Declaring the blood of other Muslims lawful to spill.
This is precisely the methodology of the Khawaarij. Even if a person were only to believe any of these things with his heart, yet he may not actually speak or do anything of them, he is still one of the Khawaarij in his baseless belief and opinions.
Nowadays, these people operate heavily online with particular focus on the Tube, through multimedia presentations, and recorded video lectures, attempting to deceive other Muslims with their claimed attachment to the way of the Salaf. You will come across these people lecturing on "Ascription to the Salaf" and speaking on particular aspects of the Salafi creed, and refuting some of the sects of innovation, and they steal or plagiarize much of the information from the Salafi websites, so they can show to the people that they have scores of articles in relation to the foundations of Islaam. They do this to gain credibility in their attempts to poison other Muslims with their real agenda - inviting to their cult and their hizbiyyah (partisanship), to frightening people away from the true and real scholars and instead to direct them to disgraces such as Omar Bakri and his likes.
It is known from history that the Innovators seek to promulgate their deviation through concealment and obfuscation, speaking with speech that outwardly appears to be in accord with the Sunnah, with the intent of using that as a means to promulgate one's foundational doctrines.
Despite all of this activity, it is a rule that if you are concealing an innovation or deviation, then you will not be able to hide it for long. It will certainly be exposed in your speech, or in your companionship, or in your actions, or allegiance and so on. And the greatest of the giveaways against them is that they continue upon their Leninst-Marxist Revolutionary Manifestos, following on from that movement of Takfir in the 1960s itself resulting from the notions of "social justice" coming from 20th century ignoramuses writing about Islam after having "gulped down" Western Materialistic Philosophies for 15 years of their lives. These doctrines continue to manifest from these people and it is essentially what their call is based around. For this reason, they are easily recognizable, no matter how much camouflage and obfuscation they try to create, at some point or other, they have to express the innovation they are calling to in reality, and express their resentment and hatred of the Scholars, Takfir of the Scholars and Takfir of Rulers and of Muslim nation-states through their calls for revolution (ideologically or otherwise).
So do not be deceived by these Khawaarij. Be warned - again - that they will not acknowledge themselves to be from the Khawaarij. Rather, they will call themselves Ikhwanul Muslimeen ("Ikhwanees"), or Qutbi, or Hizb ut-Tahreer, or Suroori, or Turaathiyaah, or al-Qa'diyah, or "al-Muhajiroon", orJamaa'at al-Jihaad, or Jama'atul-Hijrah wat-Takfeer, or Hamas, orJamaa'at ul-Islaamee of Pakistan, or Jamaa'at ul-Islaamee of Egypt, orIslamic "Jihaad" of Palestine, or Hizbollah of South Lebanon, or FIS and GIA, or the 'Salafist Group For Preaching and Combat' of Algeria, orTaliban, or Usamah bin Ladin's Al-Qaedah.
Student of knowledge, Hassan as-Somali said during a talk under the heading Al-Qa'idah and al-Khawaarij: Two Names, one ideology:
The Khawaarij prey upon ignorant people, people who don't understand their religion. That's why you found Hizb ut-Tahreer and (the group that calls itself) "Al-Muhaajiroon"... Where was their focus in the 1990s and likewise in the beginning of this year and last year and the year before last. Where was their primary focus? Who can answer? [Yes,] universities.
Universities!
Why? Because the majority of the people in the universities were unaware, not really understanding their religion. Yes, they were Muslims, but they didn't have the grounding and understanding that would be needed to repel and refute the doubts of these people, even though their doubts are weak.
So when people ask, 'Why is it that we find British-born citizens blowing up themselves? Then the answer is because you allowed Omar Bakri to preach in the university for the last 10 years, and other individuals who are like him.
Re:Rectification of these people, and the Muslims in general:
http://www.takfiris.com/takfir/
http://www.answering-extremism.com/ae/default.aspx
http://www.islamagainstextremism.com/
http://www.salafitalk.net/st/viewmes...=9&Topic=10219
A talk coming up which I will be attending:
Organised By Al-Meethaaq
Talks @ Bangladeshi Centre, Roundhay Road Leeds, LS8 5AN
From 4pm - 9pm on Saturday 6th November 2010
ISLAAM'S WAR ON TERRORISM
Tackling The Roots Of Terrorism & Extremist Ideology
Within Muslim Communities In The West
By Abu Khadeejah Abdul Waahid & Abu Iyaad Amjad Rafiq
Everyone Welcome
Muslims & Non- Muslims