Israeli - Pleatinian conflict...
10 April 2002, 12:47 PM
#31
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No one can condone those pictures and what has happened, that is fact. One question I have for you tho, the biggest problem I have with Israel is that this is an Arabic region ok, why is there a non arabic state been created smack bang in the middle of it? For the religious ground? I can not see the legitimacy of creating a non arabic state on arabic terroritry purely on the grounds of religion and just because the united nations created it years ago still doesnt make it right. What, if any, other reasons do Jews have for wanting to live in a Muslim region?? Put it like this I would not want a Muslim state created smack bang in the middle of Britain and having them claiming land, especially if it was for their religious beliefs!!!! Please explain this to me as do not see how it can be justified!
10 April 2002, 01:06 PM
#32
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No what I am saying is that there are many Muslims living in Britain, especially in the Midlands but that would not give them the right to claim the land as their own and create their own state. Living there is fine, taking over land and creating your own state is another matter surely???
10 April 2002, 01:13 PM
#33
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Like I already said,
Britain is a state.
there was no state in Israel!
there was no man's land ruled by you the British, and in this land where living both Jews and Arabs so it was decieded to split the land!!
whats not fair here????
Britain is a state.
there was no state in Israel!
there was no man's land ruled by you the British, and in this land where living both Jews and Arabs so it was decieded to split the land!!
whats not fair here????
10 April 2002, 01:35 PM
#35
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NO!!
1948 - Israel declares independence, arab countries react by attacking Israel!
during this war Israel gain some of the Arab's lands. they fought and lost!
1967 - after a lot of military acts against Israel. Israel decieds to fight the Arabs, during this war which lasts only 6 days Israel occupies the Sinai, west bank, Gaza and the Golan hieghts.
Israel offers to give back those lands in return for peace' the Arab countries refuse.
1973 - All Arab countries attack Israel on one of the most sacred day for Jews "Yom Kipur" after harsh fightings Israel win!!
1978 - Egypt takes on Israel prposal and sign a peace treaty in return for the Sianai (proof that Israel meant what they said).
1994 - Israel signs the Oslo agreement and gives back most of Gaza and the West bank...
2000 - Camp david, Israel and U.S offer Arafat a state on 95% of the land, including east Jerusalem.. Arafat says NO!!
1948 - Israel declares independence, arab countries react by attacking Israel!
during this war Israel gain some of the Arab's lands. they fought and lost!
1967 - after a lot of military acts against Israel. Israel decieds to fight the Arabs, during this war which lasts only 6 days Israel occupies the Sinai, west bank, Gaza and the Golan hieghts.
Israel offers to give back those lands in return for peace' the Arab countries refuse.
1973 - All Arab countries attack Israel on one of the most sacred day for Jews "Yom Kipur" after harsh fightings Israel win!!
1978 - Egypt takes on Israel prposal and sign a peace treaty in return for the Sianai (proof that Israel meant what they said).
1994 - Israel signs the Oslo agreement and gives back most of Gaza and the West bank...
2000 - Camp david, Israel and U.S offer Arafat a state on 95% of the land, including east Jerusalem.. Arafat says NO!!
10 April 2002, 01:45 PM
#37
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NO'
before that like wrote there was a British rule, and before tham there was a Turkish rule...should I go on.
and there where both Jews and Arabs living in the Land we know now as Israel!!
before that like wrote there was a British rule, and before tham there was a Turkish rule...should I go on.
and there where both Jews and Arabs living in the Land we know now as Israel!!
10 April 2002, 01:47 PM
#38
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Well why not give them back 100% of their original land then you are back to the original borders, they have the land back they lost in the war and Israel has made a concession that they can not better and Palestinians cannot argue over. Surely that 5% is not that important to Israel yet if it gets the Palestinians into peace agreements then it would be worth it. However as in N.Ireland I dont think the extreme extremeists (if you get my drift) will stop terrorising because thats what they want to do with no real aims or objectives. Why is it so important to Israel to keep the land that they gained during the various wars??
10 April 2002, 01:52 PM
#39
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Now I understand that most British people are pro Palestinians...
I wish you should never have to deal with the resaults of feeling sorry for them, like Isaid before play with a snake its goona bite.
look at what happened in NY, don't think London is ammuned.
I feel bad as I'm half English myself.
I wish you should never have to deal with the resaults of feeling sorry for them, like Isaid before play with a snake its goona bite.
look at what happened in NY, don't think London is ammuned.
I feel bad as I'm half English myself.
10 April 2002, 01:55 PM
#40
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Also I hope this discusion has educated others and not just me or am I the only one who didn't know the previous history??? It certainly has helped me underdstand a little more on what the fighting is about! I fear many people who watch the news don't actually know the history, like I didn't and therefore don't get the whole story. Thank you for the explanantion of the last 100 years or so, altho I appreciate that this problem probably has a greater history than 100 years and that a Palestinian may explain things to me differently. (and that is not a dig at you Elondan but there are always two sides to a story)
I just hope it is resolved before more and more countries get involved and it creates a global disaster!!!
I just hope it is resolved before more and more countries get involved and it creates a global disaster!!!
10 April 2002, 02:01 PM
#41
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I wouldnt say pro Palestinian, more a case of not agreeing with the amount of agression being used because it just wont work. Believe me I hate Islamic Jihad and Hamas as much as I do the Taleban and Al Quaeda and IRA. However as in all wars, not all Palestinians agree with what is happening, as I am sure not all Israelis agree with what Sharon is doing. Wot gets me most is the death of Children from what is something that can be avoided. Children have no opinions, have no involvement on either side yet commonly they are killed in the conflicts. This will just breed more hatred among their generation on both sides and the fighting will never stop.
10 April 2002, 02:03 PM
#42
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Surely that 5% is not that important to Israel yet if it gets the Palestinians into peace agreements then it would be worth it.
they want us to let all the refugees go back to Israel, we are not planning to let that happen,
those million refugees joined forces with the Arab countries around us against Israel cause they beleived we'll lose and they'll get our lands in return.
we (6 million) see them as traitors, and we don't plan on giving them any prizes for their actions in the past.
also some say arafat actually wants to go back to the 1948 lands, and this will never happen cause these lands where lost during a war they inniated, even the U.N say its ours!!
P.S
on a raid on one of Arafat's offices the IDF found chemical weapons that was probably destined to be used in a terror act against Israel.
10 April 2002, 02:11 PM
#43
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OK you say the land is yours and that so does the UN but if it meant ending the bombings and the conflict wouldnt giving up that 5% be worth it???? Yes it yours but then you can say here have it back and leave us alone. Surely that is a small sacrifice to pay to stop having innocent people blown up on buses and in restaraunts and shopping malls.
10 April 2002, 02:17 PM
#44
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read my post...its not the 5% that made them say NO,
its the refugees issue, and we will never have over million refugees, that left willingly and even fought us come back to Israel.
those people are traitors in our book.
its like 10 million (proportions) british would have joined the Germans during WW2 with the promise that if Germany wins they'll rule England.
would you take them back ???
its the refugees issue, and we will never have over million refugees, that left willingly and even fought us come back to Israel.
those people are traitors in our book.
its like 10 million (proportions) british would have joined the Germans during WW2 with the promise that if Germany wins they'll rule England.
would you take them back ???
10 April 2002, 02:27 PM
#45
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I did read your email and i quote:
"also some say arafat actually wants to go back to the 1948 lands, and this will never happen cause these lands where lost during a war they inniated, even the U.N say its ours!!"
So I repeat, this is still an issue which may be to Israels advantage to give back the 5% with the refugees being a seperate issue!
You make it sound so stubborn it that we won it and the UN even says its ours so therefore we are keeping it! What the hell is more important?? 5% of land or peoples lives???? Sounds to me like Israel's attitude (on that last quote) is I want to have my cake and eat it!
"also some say arafat actually wants to go back to the 1948 lands, and this will never happen cause these lands where lost during a war they inniated, even the U.N say its ours!!"
So I repeat, this is still an issue which may be to Israels advantage to give back the 5% with the refugees being a seperate issue!
You make it sound so stubborn it that we won it and the UN even says its ours so therefore we are keeping it! What the hell is more important?? 5% of land or peoples lives???? Sounds to me like Israel's attitude (on that last quote) is I want to have my cake and eat it!
10 April 2002, 02:35 PM
#46
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95% of the occupied trritories those we took in 1967 when we iniated the war.
the lands from 1948 are ours because we didn't win them over from no one!!
there was no Palestine state on the other side and the land was also not of any other arab country, so when they called war on Israel, we manged to increase our lands, but not on anybody's acoount.
the arabs living on these lands either ran away (the refugees) or stayed and are now Israeli citizens (in a rescent survey 80% said they want to stay under Israeli rule!!)/
agian the 5% is about the 1967 war...and thats not what made arafat leave the peace talks but rather the refugees issue!!
on which I wrote:
the lands from 1948 are ours because we didn't win them over from no one!!
there was no Palestine state on the other side and the land was also not of any other arab country, so when they called war on Israel, we manged to increase our lands, but not on anybody's acoount.
the arabs living on these lands either ran away (the refugees) or stayed and are now Israeli citizens (in a rescent survey 80% said they want to stay under Israeli rule!!)/
agian the 5% is about the 1967 war...and thats not what made arafat leave the peace talks but rather the refugees issue!!
on which I wrote:
its the refugees issue, and we will never have over million refugees, that left willingly and even fought us come back to Israel.
those people are traitors in our book.
its like 10 million (proportions) british would have joined the Germans during WW2 with the promise that if Germany wins they'll rule England.
would you take them back ???
those people are traitors in our book.
its like 10 million (proportions) british would have joined the Germans during WW2 with the promise that if Germany wins they'll rule England.
would you take them back ???
10 April 2002, 02:43 PM
#47
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Now I understand that most British people are pro Palestinians
This is the root of the problem. When you and your people are brave enough to look at a a wider view there can be no progress towards resolution. The same statement applies to the Palestinians
10 April 2002, 02:50 PM
#50
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You know Israel already showed its intentions in the past...
*we gave back Sinai to Egypt
*We got out of Lebanon
*We voted for Rabin and Barak, sat down with the Palestinians and got spitt on the face.
What else do you want us to do?????
I didn't see the big effort the Palestinians did.
belive me if I didn't see the other's side I wouldn't have voted for Rabin and Barak...
but I must tell you the last year made me think I was wrong.
*we gave back Sinai to Egypt
*We got out of Lebanon
*We voted for Rabin and Barak, sat down with the Palestinians and got spitt on the face.
What else do you want us to do?????
I didn't see the big effort the Palestinians did.
belive me if I didn't see the other's side I wouldn't have voted for Rabin and Barak...
but I must tell you the last year made me think I was wrong.
10 April 2002, 02:59 PM
#51
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Anyway,
Thank you guys for writing your views, its basically what I wanted (to hear what the British think)
No hard feelings, I tried my best to express my point of view.
Have a nice day...
Thank you guys for writing your views, its basically what I wanted (to hear what the British think)
No hard feelings, I tried my best to express my point of view.
Have a nice day...
10 April 2002, 03:00 PM
#52
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p.s. Don't be fooled by propaganda. Treat everything you hear about the other side as propaganda. Go and find out what their propaganda says. Somewhere in the middle is the truth.
You see - I heard from a reliable source that the IDF planted the chemical weapons. If you simply dismiss this or believe it without question then you have been taken in by the propaganda. Ask youself which seems most realistic?
Would you store your own chemical weapons in your office? I certainly wouldn't, but maybe some would. In any case you cannot justifiably use this as fact
You see - I heard from a reliable source that the IDF planted the chemical weapons. If you simply dismiss this or believe it without question then you have been taken in by the propaganda. Ask youself which seems most realistic?
Would you store your own chemical weapons in your office? I certainly wouldn't, but maybe some would. In any case you cannot justifiably use this as fact
10 April 2002, 03:10 PM
#55
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Would you store your own chemical weapons in your office? I certainly wouldn't, but maybe some would. In any case you cannot justifiably use this as fact
04 October 2002, 10:12 AM
#57
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Quite simply while Sharon is in power the situation will continue to get worse
this situation is going on for how long? ... 15 years.
in between we had Rabin, Peres and Barak...and what did we get...Terror.
During all this time who was in power on the other side...Arafat.
He is an ex military leader bent on seeing a blood bath and using all the military power he once was part of
you see the Israeli soldiers smiling and laughing in front of the cameras and telling the news crews to get out because they dont want the outside world seeing what they are doing
they are not smiling while we also have deads (22 soldiers yesturday) and we don't cover up anything, the reason is because we already had one Italian reporter killed by mistake.
personally I would be sh!tting myself and be far from smiling
but by going in and murdering innocent Palestinians
You must be joking, if Israel wanted to kill innocent people why send in troops, we can use artilery, and bomb the hell out of this place.
Q: When England had troops in N. Irland and innocent people where killed by mistake it was because England wanted to kill them? I say NO!!
Quite simply if another country invaded my neighborhood I wouldnt exactly be too hospitable to them to say the least.
Just because the terrorists are hiding in refugee camps doesnt then mean u should bomb the **** out of the refugee camps, what about the innocent people such as children???
and by the way they use places like churches to hide and to shoot from knowing we won't shoot back.
[Edited by elondan - 4/10/2002 10:13:28 AM]
04 October 2002, 10:50 AM
#58
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Ok so all those cobra attack helicopters firing missiles like there is no tomorrow is using infantry is it or have the international press been making it up???
an equivalent person in charge of Israels affairs
As for your figures of 99% are armed men, I am sorry no conflict in the world has that sort of success rate - ie 1% innocent casualties.
As for my comments on smiling soldiers, I know what I have seen on the news and these were tank commanders outside the church which is currently beseiged. They certainly didnt look like they were ****ting themselves to me!
be sure that while in combat they don't smile.
[Edited by elondan - 4/10/2002 10:51:48 AM]
04 October 2002, 01:00 PM
#59
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It's quite simple, there where always!! jews living in Israel/Palestine (call hoever you like).
its true there was a smaller number of Jews due to the fact many where deported, but there was always a Jewish community living in Israel.
more than that you had Jews living in Yemen, Iraq, Syria, Egypt Morroco...
My family goes back a lot of generetions in Israel (on my father's side) and English on my mom's side.
What you're saying is like why make an Anglican chuch in Catholic Europe...
unlike Britain, there was no Arab state, it was under different rules, Turkish, British...
and the land on which you had Arabs and Jews living was splitted.
[Edited by elondan - 4/10/2002 1:10:03 PM]
its true there was a smaller number of Jews due to the fact many where deported, but there was always a Jewish community living in Israel.
more than that you had Jews living in Yemen, Iraq, Syria, Egypt Morroco...
My family goes back a lot of generetions in Israel (on my father's side) and English on my mom's side.
What you're saying is like why make an Anglican chuch in Catholic Europe...
a Muslim state created smack bang in the middle of Britain
and the land on which you had Arabs and Jews living was splitted.
[Edited by elondan - 4/10/2002 1:10:03 PM]
04 October 2002, 03:46 PM
#60
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FWIW, I served in Beirut with the UN and in Ulster with the Royal Marines. I've seen and experienced plenty of terrorist action, thank you 
Elondan, I sympathise with you and the Israeli people for the terrorist acts being carried out against you. Unfortunately, I also sympathise with the Palestinians who were displaced by the heavy handed and, frankly, imperialist behaviour of the British government and Lord Balfour in particular.
Right now, nobody is doing anything useful. It may be true that Israel is taking as moderate a line as the electorate will allow. The trouble is, the rest of the world doesn't see it that way, and in the war for hearts and minds Israel is way down on points against Arafat. And in the long run that matters.
Like Mr Churchill said, "Jaw, jaw is far better than war, war."
Oh, and as regards your neighbours and there being no christians or jews in power, take a look at, of all places, Iraq. Tariq Aziz, foreign minister, is a christian. In act, Iraq has the largest proportion of christian people in the Middle East after Israel.
How do I know? Because I'm married to a christian Iraqi.
Made life complicated during the Gulf War, but that's a different story...
Edited to add that while in Beirut I watched the Israeli Air Force bomb an artillery site which had been shelling them. Very accurate bombing, too, from a professional viewpoint. The site was near a school (normal practice to site a high value target near a school, hospital or church to maximise the risk of civilian casualties) but the strike was beatifully contained and nothing else was hit.
Which made the BBC report of an air-riad on a refugee camp a little harder to believe
Propaganda goes both ways and we cannot believe all we see or hear ont he news. I suspect that both sides are distorting things a little, and journalists do have a habit of building a story out of nothing. ("We can't go there because it's dangerous" = Bugger, there goes my bonus. "We can't go there because the (Insert name of army here) are shooting at us" = Maybe I can get something extra for this.
[Edited by Sbradley - 4/10/2002 3:53:37 PM]
Elondan, I sympathise with you and the Israeli people for the terrorist acts being carried out against you. Unfortunately, I also sympathise with the Palestinians who were displaced by the heavy handed and, frankly, imperialist behaviour of the British government and Lord Balfour in particular.
Right now, nobody is doing anything useful. It may be true that Israel is taking as moderate a line as the electorate will allow. The trouble is, the rest of the world doesn't see it that way, and in the war for hearts and minds Israel is way down on points against Arafat. And in the long run that matters.
Like Mr Churchill said, "Jaw, jaw is far better than war, war."
Oh, and as regards your neighbours and there being no christians or jews in power, take a look at, of all places, Iraq. Tariq Aziz, foreign minister, is a christian. In act, Iraq has the largest proportion of christian people in the Middle East after Israel.
How do I know? Because I'm married to a christian Iraqi.
Made life complicated during the Gulf War, but that's a different story...
Edited to add that while in Beirut I watched the Israeli Air Force bomb an artillery site which had been shelling them. Very accurate bombing, too, from a professional viewpoint. The site was near a school (normal practice to site a high value target near a school, hospital or church to maximise the risk of civilian casualties) but the strike was beatifully contained and nothing else was hit.
Which made the BBC report of an air-riad on a refugee camp a little harder to believe
Propaganda goes both ways and we cannot believe all we see or hear ont he news. I suspect that both sides are distorting things a little, and journalists do have a habit of building a story out of nothing. ("We can't go there because it's dangerous" = Bugger, there goes my bonus. "We can't go there because the (Insert name of army here) are shooting at us" = Maybe I can get something extra for this.
[Edited by Sbradley - 4/10/2002 3:53:37 PM]
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