Dublin Riots....
29 November 2010, 09:43 AM
#31
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I'll answer that for you but, before I do, can I assume that, to have drawn up your Eurosceptic position, you must have thoroughly researched the issues? Is it the case that you concluded that there are no benefits to EU membership and, in a broader sense, the EU's existence as a whole?
29 November 2010, 09:51 AM
#32
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It is just that the negatives for me far outweigh the positives. If it is a case of security, which could be improved no doubt with a union, well I would rather be less secure and more free. I just do not believe that full co-operation between forces could not work in much the same way. And I don't buy the trade argument either. Free trade is not something that requires a union like this.
Using the argument I've heard from the pro-Euro side, a world government would be even better going by the same logic.
But all this bypasses a key issue. That I do not like in the slightest that this bureaucratic institution is now attempting to take power. I guarantee to you that it is more for the interest of the people forming it than it is for the average person in these countries. We can get the majority of the supposed plus points of Europe without being part of the EU.
Using the argument I've heard from the pro-Euro side, a world government would be even better going by the same logic.
But all this bypasses a key issue. That I do not like in the slightest that this bureaucratic institution is now attempting to take power. I guarantee to you that it is more for the interest of the people forming it than it is for the average person in these countries. We can get the majority of the supposed plus points of Europe without being part of the EU.
29 November 2010, 10:29 AM
#33
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I'll answer that for you but, before I do, can I assume that, to have drawn up your Eurosceptic position, you must have thoroughly researched the issues? Is it the case that you concluded that there are no benefits to EU membership and, in a broader sense, the EU's existence as a whole?
That question is quite irrelevant. The question is 'do we want to be part of the EU'? Whether it's *advantageous* or not the people's wishes should be what determines our membership, or not, of the EU. That's what the real issue is, how bleddy non-democratic the whole things is.
Dave
29 November 2010, 11:08 AM
#34
Certain non-EU countries in Europe seem to cope OK.
I'm thinking mainly of the Swiss here. For such a tiny country and looking at what they have, it does very well; mainly as a bank-vault for other people's money and charging extortionate amounts for tarty watches in the name of vanity, and as a reward has one of the world's highest living standards. In theory though, the luxury watch industry should be on its knees and on its way down the pan, but nope its still going, although not as healthy as it once was. yet I don't recall hearing of any top brand admitting to having financial issues (mind you, charging £2K+ for a watch that costs £250 to make, plus the servicing/repair fees puts them in a healthy situation to start with).
I mean, with our banking sector ten years ago, I think we could have been in a much better position out of the boom than we had. I think in some respects the EU held us back where other countries strived forward (for example Spain's infratstrucure upgrades funded via EU grants and loans).
I suppose its down to the bottom line on the balance sheet: As a capitalist country, how much money do we give the EU, and how much money do we get back (be it via trade, work or grants). It would be nice to clearly see what we get back from what we give. However clarity was never the EU's (nor the UK's) strongpoint - hence the mass scepticism.
I'm thinking mainly of the Swiss here. For such a tiny country and looking at what they have, it does very well; mainly as a bank-vault for other people's money and charging extortionate amounts for tarty watches in the name of vanity, and as a reward has one of the world's highest living standards. In theory though, the luxury watch industry should be on its knees and on its way down the pan, but nope its still going, although not as healthy as it once was. yet I don't recall hearing of any top brand admitting to having financial issues (mind you, charging £2K+ for a watch that costs £250 to make, plus the servicing/repair fees puts them in a healthy situation to start with).
I mean, with our banking sector ten years ago, I think we could have been in a much better position out of the boom than we had. I think in some respects the EU held us back where other countries strived forward (for example Spain's infratstrucure upgrades funded via EU grants and loans).
I suppose its down to the bottom line on the balance sheet: As a capitalist country, how much money do we give the EU, and how much money do we get back (be it via trade, work or grants). It would be nice to clearly see what we get back from what we give. However clarity was never the EU's (nor the UK's) strongpoint - hence the mass scepticism.
Last edited by ALi-B; 29 November 2010 at 11:15 AM.
29 November 2010, 11:12 AM
#35
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Cameron, Hague, Duncan-Smith and others are all broadly libertarian and actively working against a federal Europe. That doesn't mean they're 'anti' Europe, because they also know that's not in this country's best interests long-term.
Fashionable or not, I'm saying the dolts can barely string a sentence together, let alone understand the grey, murky, nuanced world of European politics.
Can you imagine it?
Europe: Yes [ ] No [ ]
We'd get a 'no' through ignorance; not considered, well reasoned analysis. I was at the Wales v All Blacks game yesterday and the sense of national pride and idendity was overwhelming amongst the Welsh, despite having been annexed by my lot 500 years ago. We're not going to be annexed. We'll maintain our identity (when we regain the confidence to express it). We'll be a key player in Europe.
Much of the anti-Europe rhetoric is ill-considered, chauvinistic, reactionary nonsense.
Read Cameron's background. Do you really believe a man so firmly rooted in the history of Great Britain would send it down the river?
Fashionable or not, I'm saying the dolts can barely string a sentence together, let alone understand the grey, murky, nuanced world of European politics.
Can you imagine it?
Europe: Yes [ ] No [ ]
We'd get a 'no' through ignorance; not considered, well reasoned analysis. I was at the Wales v All Blacks game yesterday and the sense of national pride and idendity was overwhelming amongst the Welsh, despite having been annexed by my lot 500 years ago. We're not going to be annexed. We'll maintain our identity (when we regain the confidence to express it). We'll be a key player in Europe.
Much of the anti-Europe rhetoric is ill-considered, chauvinistic, reactionary nonsense.
Read Cameron's background. Do you really believe a man so firmly rooted in the history of Great Britain would send it down the river?
What does that say for their characters JT? They now just continue and ignore the fact that the accounts still are not acceptable after 16 years for goodness sake! Where does all that lost cash go do you think?
Their immediate ambition of course is full federation which will then denote the death of democracy and total power for themselves. They are all appointed posts remember!
The overall performance of the association is poor, look how well Norway and Switzerland who had the sense to remain trading partners only are doing financially.
The really sensible thing is indeed to get out and form a trading agreement. They could not refuse that, they depend so much on our trade.
You are dreaming if you think there would be any sign of GB left after federation. It would not be allowed!
We desperately need to keep our own country alive for our own sakes.
Les
29 November 2010, 11:23 AM
#36
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Certain non-EU countries in Europe seem to cope OK.
I'm thinking mainly of the Swiss here. For such a tiny country and looking at what they have, it does very well; mainly as a bank-vault for other people's money and charging extortionate amounts for tarty watches in the name of vanity, and as a reward has one of the world's highest living standards. In theory though, the luxury watch industry should be on its knees and on its way down the pan, but nope its still going, although not as healthy as it once was. yet I don't recall hearing of any top brand admitting to having financial issues (mind you, charging £2K+ for a watch that costs £250 to make, plus the servicing/repair fees puts them in a healthy situation to start with).
I mean, with our banking sector ten years ago, I think we could have been in a much better position out of the boom than we had. I think in some respects the EU held us back where other countries strived forward (for example Spain's infratstrucure upgrades funded via EU grants and loans).
I suppose its down to the bottom line on the balance sheet: As a capitalist country, how much money do we give the EU, and how much money do we get back (be it via trade, work or grants). It would be nice to clearly see what we get back from what we give. However clarity was never the EU's (nor the UK's) strongpoint - hence the mass scepticism.
I'm thinking mainly of the Swiss here. For such a tiny country and looking at what they have, it does very well; mainly as a bank-vault for other people's money and charging extortionate amounts for tarty watches in the name of vanity, and as a reward has one of the world's highest living standards. In theory though, the luxury watch industry should be on its knees and on its way down the pan, but nope its still going, although not as healthy as it once was. yet I don't recall hearing of any top brand admitting to having financial issues (mind you, charging £2K+ for a watch that costs £250 to make, plus the servicing/repair fees puts them in a healthy situation to start with).
I mean, with our banking sector ten years ago, I think we could have been in a much better position out of the boom than we had. I think in some respects the EU held us back where other countries strived forward (for example Spain's infratstrucure upgrades funded via EU grants and loans).
I suppose its down to the bottom line on the balance sheet: As a capitalist country, how much money do we give the EU, and how much money do we get back (be it via trade, work or grants). It would be nice to clearly see what we get back from what we give. However clarity was never the EU's (nor the UK's) strongpoint - hence the mass scepticism.
The Swiss are a weird example, we have always needed a neutral country for political purposes and one with a discreet banking system with a healthy mistrust of big government regulation; their small population thus benefits.
Personally I prefer the 'Scandinavian model'. Smaller populations, more civil society focussed/quality of life etc. Nicer places to live than modern 'turbo Capitalist' UK with its mass immigration, social problems etc slavish consumerism and money consciousness etc. It feels like one big ponzi scheme at time.
Last edited by tony de wonderful; 29 November 2010 at 11:24 AM.
29 November 2010, 02:00 PM
#39
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I spent some time in Denmark as a student and agree with Tony's views around small population and high standard of living. The Swiss and the Scandinavians seem, on the whole, to have it right. But that ain't us, is it? We have a much different role to play on the World Stage which doesn't involve neutrality, bacon and watches, but being in amongst it, a player rather than a footnote in history.
A united Europe becomes a serious super power and Britain needs to be at the forefront of that. Do we really want to be an irrelevance; a country out to pasture, no longer able to punch above its weight?
Does the bureaucracy suck? Well I'm a libertarian so you work it out. Is the fisheries policy stacked in our favour? No, and I'm of Cornish ancestry so have a vested interest. Do I want Eastern Europeans brazenly walking into my stores in Cardiff, lifting stuff and strolling out saying "no speak English" when challenged? No. It sucks **** that these people can cross in to our border. But, I'll say this: all of these issues are petty when compared to the political isolation and the social wilderness we'd inhabitate post withdrawal. It would be a retrograde step.
The good news is, it isn't going to happen. The horse has bolted and the barn doors have been locked. 27 Democratic Countries with common policy, a real force on the World stage and Britain increasingly at centre stage with the major players.
A united Europe becomes a serious super power and Britain needs to be at the forefront of that. Do we really want to be an irrelevance; a country out to pasture, no longer able to punch above its weight?
Does the bureaucracy suck? Well I'm a libertarian so you work it out. Is the fisheries policy stacked in our favour? No, and I'm of Cornish ancestry so have a vested interest. Do I want Eastern Europeans brazenly walking into my stores in Cardiff, lifting stuff and strolling out saying "no speak English" when challenged? No. It sucks **** that these people can cross in to our border. But, I'll say this: all of these issues are petty when compared to the political isolation and the social wilderness we'd inhabitate post withdrawal. It would be a retrograde step.
The good news is, it isn't going to happen. The horse has bolted and the barn doors have been locked. 27 Democratic Countries with common policy, a real force on the World stage and Britain increasingly at centre stage with the major players.
29 November 2010, 07:44 PM
#40
Really ,really annoys me threads like this one.
Not one person has posted directions to the wine lake
Not one person has posted directions to the wine lake
29 November 2010, 07:52 PM
#41
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European Parliament Office/goverment/muppets in Ireland fooked up,got in fast thinking they would/might profit....................the rest speaks for it self *****.
29 November 2010, 07:58 PM
#42
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So let's get out of it and lower our chances of being the constant target of terrorist attacks and stop wasting billions on arms that we will never use anyway. And fighting wars that we can't win.
dl
Last edited by David Lock; 29 November 2010 at 07:59 PM.
29 November 2010, 08:21 PM
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Yes. Because we can't afford to punch above our weight any more - the Empire's gone.
So let's get out of it and lower our chances of being the constant target of terrorist attacks and stop wasting billions on arms that we will never use anyway. And fighting wars that we can't win.
dl
So let's get out of it and lower our chances of being the constant target of terrorist attacks and stop wasting billions on arms that we will never use anyway. And fighting wars that we can't win.
dl
Bring me my Bow of burning gold;
Bring me my Arrows of desire:
Bring me my Spear: O clouds unfold!
Bring me my Chariot of fire!
We'll go forth, a brave new army, our continental cousins by our side, our children's children proud that the land of their fathers' stood tall!
God save the Queen.
29 November 2010, 08:42 PM
#46
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30 November 2010, 06:39 AM
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Ms Gfoeller said Prince Andrew told her that the UK, Western Europe and the US were now "back in the thick of playing the Great Game" - a reference to the 19th centrury struggle between the British and Russian Empires for control of Central Asia.
The Guardian has defended its decision to publish leaked material
"More animated than ever, he stated cockily: 'And this time we aim to win!' she wrote.
The Guardian has defended its decision to publish leaked material
"More animated than ever, he stated cockily: 'And this time we aim to win!' she wrote.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11870581
Last edited by JTaylor; 30 November 2010 at 06:41 AM.
30 November 2010, 10:12 AM
#48
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We know Andrew's a prat anyway.
dl
30 November 2010, 11:16 AM
#49
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I spent some time in Denmark as a student and agree with Tony's views around small population and high standard of living. The Swiss and the Scandinavians seem, on the whole, to have it right. But that ain't us, is it? We have a much different role to play on the World Stage which doesn't involve neutrality, bacon and watches, but being in amongst it, a player rather than a footnote in history.
A united Europe becomes a serious super power and Britain needs to be at the forefront of that. Do we really want to be an irrelevance; a country out to pasture, no longer able to punch above its weight?
Does the bureaucracy suck? Well I'm a libertarian so you work it out. Is the fisheries policy stacked in our favour? No, and I'm of Cornish ancestry so have a vested interest. Do I want Eastern Europeans brazenly walking into my stores in Cardiff, lifting stuff and strolling out saying "no speak English" when challenged? No. It sucks **** that these people can cross in to our border. But, I'll say this: all of these issues are petty when compared to the political isolation and the social wilderness we'd inhabitate post withdrawal. It would be a retrograde step.
The good news is, it isn't going to happen. The horse has bolted and the barn doors have been locked. 27 Democratic Countries with common policy, a real force on the World stage and Britain increasingly at centre stage with the major players.
A united Europe becomes a serious super power and Britain needs to be at the forefront of that. Do we really want to be an irrelevance; a country out to pasture, no longer able to punch above its weight?
Does the bureaucracy suck? Well I'm a libertarian so you work it out. Is the fisheries policy stacked in our favour? No, and I'm of Cornish ancestry so have a vested interest. Do I want Eastern Europeans brazenly walking into my stores in Cardiff, lifting stuff and strolling out saying "no speak English" when challenged? No. It sucks **** that these people can cross in to our border. But, I'll say this: all of these issues are petty when compared to the political isolation and the social wilderness we'd inhabitate post withdrawal. It would be a retrograde step.
The good news is, it isn't going to happen. The horse has bolted and the barn doors have been locked. 27 Democratic Countries with common policy, a real force on the World stage and Britain increasingly at centre stage with the major players.
Those problems you admit to have gone a long way to drag this country down to its present state, as much as anything due to the weak performance of our own leaders-if you can call them that!
You talk about democratic countries. How much democracy do you see in the present makeup of the Eu? Virtually nil I would say. After federation you can kiss the idea of anything like that goodbye.
Do libertarians actually believe in democracy, do you accept the right of the people to run their own lives?
We would effectively be there just to keep topping up their coffers...as now!
Les
30 November 2010, 11:36 AM
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30 November 2010, 11:37 AM
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You talk about democratic countries. How much democracy do you see in the present makeup of the Eu? Virtually nil I would say. After federation you can kiss the idea of anything like that goodbye.
Do libertarians actually believe in democracy, do you accept the right of the people to run their own lives?
We would effectively be there just to keep topping up their coffers...as now!
Les
Do libertarians actually believe in democracy, do you accept the right of the people to run their own lives?
We would effectively be there just to keep topping up their coffers...as now!
Les
You could say they are buying are freedom with it, enabled by the Lawyer class.
Giving out bread...
30 November 2010, 12:51 PM
#52
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Perhaps being part of a political union, but certainly nothing like in its current bureaucratic form. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism
I'd be more interested in a limited democracy of some kind. Some legal freedoms that just cannot be changed for short-term promises by politicians. In a social democracy like we have today, anything can be changed by the majority if they want to enact a certain policy for a specific reason - more than likely when they're convinced it will help them. Saying that, I'm not sure how you would ever get round that. I'm not sure a limited democracy would be possible, or even right.
But recent times highlight the flaws. It's likely that if this country ever does go down a difficult road, the people will support policies that will take it further down that road and make themselves worse off. But it is anyone's right to stop them any more than it is to limit that and give rights to the individual... who knows, but I think it is.
Edited to say - way off topic now. Sorry to the OP.
Last edited by GlesgaKiss; 30 November 2010 at 12:55 PM.
30 November 2010, 01:14 PM
#53
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"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." (Churchill from a House of Commons speech on Nov. 11, 1947)
The challenge is it's open to abuse which is why we all need to be on the same page. Fukayama discusses this in The End of History. Europe is in a transitionary phase, and the bureaucracy's rampant, but to be honest, what do we expect? Look at what needs to be pushed through and sorted. I'm entirely confident the project's ideological intentions are honourable.
The challenge is it's open to abuse which is why we all need to be on the same page. Fukayama discusses this in The End of History. Europe is in a transitionary phase, and the bureaucracy's rampant, but to be honest, what do we expect? Look at what needs to be pushed through and sorted. I'm entirely confident the project's ideological intentions are honourable.
30 November 2010, 01:15 PM
#54
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How many MEP's do we have in the Eu Parliament, and if they all supported him in what he said, how much effect would that have on a parliamentary vote?
Les
30 November 2010, 01:23 PM
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"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." (Churchill from a House of Commons speech on Nov. 11, 1947)
The challenge is it's open to abuse which is why we all need to be on the same page. Fukayama discusses this in The End of History. Europe is in a transitionary phase, and the bureaucracy's rampant, but to be honest, what do we expect? Look at what needs to be pushed through and sorted. I'm entirely confident the project's ideological intentions are honourable.
The challenge is it's open to abuse which is why we all need to be on the same page. Fukayama discusses this in The End of History. Europe is in a transitionary phase, and the bureaucracy's rampant, but to be honest, what do we expect? Look at what needs to be pushed through and sorted. I'm entirely confident the project's ideological intentions are honourable.
In our own country, or "State" as in the USA as it would be, we would no longer have any significant power to control our own lives.
Politicians of all colours have adequately demonstrated how far we can trust them in recent times. At least in this country we can still vote them out!
Les
30 November 2010, 01:50 PM
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Not everyone will support Farage, despite his compelling oratory, as displayed on last week's QT.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mobile/iplayer/episode/b00wcnsr
30 November 2010, 01:53 PM
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Arrrrrggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh .............
Dave
30 November 2010, 02:07 PM
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"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." (Churchill from a House of Commons speech on Nov. 11, 1947)
The challenge is it's open to abuse which is why we all need to be on the same page. Fukayama discusses this in The End of History. Europe is in a transitionary phase, and the bureaucracy's rampant, but to be honest, what do we expect? Look at what needs to be pushed through and sorted. I'm entirely confident the project's ideological intentions are honourable.
The challenge is it's open to abuse which is why we all need to be on the same page. Fukayama discusses this in The End of History. Europe is in a transitionary phase, and the bureaucracy's rampant, but to be honest, what do we expect? Look at what needs to be pushed through and sorted. I'm entirely confident the project's ideological intentions are honourable.
30 November 2010, 02:12 PM
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