Dublin Riots....
03 December 2010, 05:13 PM
#121
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I'm not concerned with these petty issues, they're small beer. My position is that we Europeans are now part of a liberal democratic, secular block that gives us (Europe) real strength on the World stage. We'll stand tall against Russia, China and the Middle East and work with our ideological brothers across the globe. Let's make sure Great Britain is there with the Germans and the French with one hand on the reigns. This is how the world order stands, it isn't going to change because of some accounting discrepencies. GB at the forefront of the EU or resign ourselves to obscurity because of mistrust? FFS, we're being so unambitious and provincial about this thing.
I totally agree with you here (there's a first)
We should stop bloody whining the whole time about everything being so unfair and terrible. Get in there, engage and reform the thing.
We should only consider withdrawl if we cannot make it work better and it's not in the national interest to stay in
I challenge Dave and Les to tell me why they are happy with our own undemocratic political union (The UK) and yet so enraged by the EU?
I pressume you will both be voting YES for electoral reform in the forthcoming referendum?
03 December 2010, 05:58 PM
#123
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So we belong to no EU specific trade organisations but retain our membership in the WTO. The EU negotiates and acts within the WTO as a single body. We've told the EU to "f.o". Do you see any potential hazards, here?
An additional question, if I may, what democratic credentials does the WTO hold?
An additional question, if I may, what democratic credentials does the WTO hold?
Explain to me how, in your ideal scenario, we can influence the direction of the EU from within? Exp0lain to me how this squares with being in the *common market* for over 35 years and we have not influenced it's direction to the benefit of the British electorate not one jot?>
Dave
03 December 2010, 05:59 PM
#124
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Dave
03 December 2010, 06:37 PM
#125
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No.
Explain to me how, in your ideal scenario, we can influence the direction of the EU from within? Exp0lain to me how this squares with being in the *common market* for over 35 years and we have not influenced it's direction to the benefit of the British electorate not one jot?>
Dave
Explain to me how, in your ideal scenario, we can influence the direction of the EU from within? Exp0lain to me how this squares with being in the *common market* for over 35 years and we have not influenced it's direction to the benefit of the British electorate not one jot?>
Dave
The EU isn't just about the British electorate, Dave, it's about each and everyone one of us and our cousins across the continent. Sir Winston Churchill said in his pro-European address, "All that is needed is the resolve of hundreds of millions of men and women to do right instead of wrong and to gain as their reward blessing instead of cursing". 27 countries, united, allied and strong. I'm just glad we're there already. I'm glad there isn't going to be a referendum because much of the electorate, as you've demonstrated with your 'no', isn't sufficiently versed to tick the right box.
James.
04 December 2010, 08:45 AM
#126
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Thanks for answering my question, it gives me a real insight in to your understanding of economics and global politics.
The EU isn't just about the British electorate, Dave, it's about each and everyone one of us and our cousins across the continent. Sir Winston Churchill said in his pro-European address, "All that is needed is the resolve of hundreds of millions of men and women to do right instead of wrong and to gain as their reward blessing instead of cursing". 27 countries, united, allied and strong. I'm just glad we're there already. I'm glad there isn't going to be a referendum because much of the electorate, as you've demonstrated with your 'no', isn't sufficiently versed to tick the right box.
James.
The EU isn't just about the British electorate, Dave, it's about each and everyone one of us and our cousins across the continent. Sir Winston Churchill said in his pro-European address, "All that is needed is the resolve of hundreds of millions of men and women to do right instead of wrong and to gain as their reward blessing instead of cursing". 27 countries, united, allied and strong. I'm just glad we're there already. I'm glad there isn't going to be a referendum because much of the electorate, as you've demonstrated with your 'no', isn't sufficiently versed to tick the right box.
James.
But you go on quoting Churchill. He was right about some things, when defeating the Hun, but things in Europe have changed just a tad since his day and the EU is more corrupt than he could ever have imagined.As for our *cousins* across the channel, if yoju bothered to do any sort of research you'll see that they're just as hacked off with the EU as we are (well most of us anyway!). Latest figures show 60% of Germans want the Mark back for example.
Dave
PS: normally, unlike you who just posts your own personal drivel, I post a url to back up any claims. I'll leave the last one as an exercise for the reader to find ....
04 December 2010, 08:56 AM
#127
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Thank you, David. You're right about Yoju, he's a shirker and I'll be speaking with him about this as soon as he's finished the polishing.
So me not answering YOUR question reflects on me but you not answering questions or just being on a wind-up makes you some intellectual heavy weight? I don't think so. Condescending pr*tt more like .... But you go on quoting Churchill. He was right about some things, when defeating the Hun, but things in Europe have changed just a tad since his day and the EU is more corrupt than he could ever have imagined.
As for our *cousins* across the channel, if yoju bothered to do any sort of research you'll see that they're just as hacked off with the EU as we are (well most of us anyway!). Latest figures show 60% of Germans want the Mark back for example.
Dave
PS: normally, unlike you who just posts your own personal drivel, I post a url to back up any claims. I'll leave the last one as an exercise for the reader to find ....
But you go on quoting Churchill. He was right about some things, when defeating the Hun, but things in Europe have changed just a tad since his day and the EU is more corrupt than he could ever have imagined.As for our *cousins* across the channel, if yoju bothered to do any sort of research you'll see that they're just as hacked off with the EU as we are (well most of us anyway!). Latest figures show 60% of Germans want the Mark back for example.
Dave
PS: normally, unlike you who just posts your own personal drivel, I post a url to back up any claims. I'll leave the last one as an exercise for the reader to find ....
Last edited by JTaylor; 04 December 2010 at 09:01 AM.
04 December 2010, 09:17 AM
#128
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I totally agree with you here (there's a first)
We should stop bloody whining the whole time about everything being so unfair and terrible. Get in there, engage and reform the thing.
We should only consider withdrawl if we cannot make it work better and it's not in the national interest to stay in
I challenge Dave and Les to tell me why they are happy with our own undemocratic political union (The UK) and yet so enraged by the EU?
I pressume you will both be voting YES for electoral reform in the forthcoming referendum?
We should stop bloody whining the whole time about everything being so unfair and terrible. Get in there, engage and reform the thing.
We should only consider withdrawl if we cannot make it work better and it's not in the national interest to stay in
I challenge Dave and Les to tell me why they are happy with our own undemocratic political union (The UK) and yet so enraged by the EU?
I pressume you will both be voting YES for electoral reform in the forthcoming referendum?
Our voting system is fine, the only problem we have is with modern politicians whose motives are questionable to say the least and are far more interested in their personal situation rather than the country and its people.
You have a childish trust in the Eu which is seriously misplaced.
Les
04 December 2010, 10:06 AM
#129
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I think there is a lot of "wood for the trees here" - much quasi-intellectual fluff, mostly from Mr Taylor, which hides the blindingly obvious with a naive belief that Churchill couldn't be wrong. "All that is needed is the resolve of hundreds of millions of men and women to do right instead of wrong and to gain as their reward blessing instead of cursing" This could have come from an A Level "Communism for Beginners" hand book It just wouldn't, and won't, work.
Just imagine if, in a few years, Iran, North Korea or Pakistan get above themselves (or a group of terrorists in the Middle East) and decide to lob a few nukes Europe's way. Do you think you are ever going to get 27 countries to agree on the best course of action in under 3 months? Never. It'll be the Brits taking a unilateral decision or maybe France and Germany asking the USA to help out.
And more fundementally the British people don't like foreigners. They don't want to work in a group of 26 other countries. And as I posted before we can't afford to be at the top table any more and we can't afford it anymore. Just look at all the money we spend on wars and weapons and then look back at UK and see our children not being educated properly or old folk who can't afford their heating bills.
dl
It just wouldn't, and won't, work.Just imagine if, in a few years, Iran, North Korea or Pakistan get above themselves (or a group of terrorists in the Middle East) and decide to lob a few nukes Europe's way. Do you think you are ever going to get 27 countries to agree on the best course of action in under 3 months? Never. It'll be the Brits taking a unilateral decision or maybe France and Germany asking the USA to help out.
And more fundementally the British people don't like foreigners. They don't want to work in a group of 26 other countries. And as I posted before we can't afford to be at the top table any more and we can't afford it anymore. Just look at all the money we spend on wars and weapons and then look back at UK and see our children not being educated properly or old folk who can't afford their heating bills.
dl
04 December 2010, 10:41 AM
#130
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Anyone who think we would have any influence at all in the Eu, at its "centre" as people are so fond of saying, first stated by the politicians who want us to become federated for their own private reasons, would find themselves sadly let down if we are ever foolish enough to do that.
Les
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04 December 2010, 11:16 AM
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I understand the intermediate book, which I've yet to read, is replete with stirring rhetoric from Joe McCarthy.
04 December 2010, 11:21 AM
#133
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I think there is a lot of "wood for the trees here" - much quasi-intellectual fluff, mostly from Mr Taylor, which hides the blindingly obvious with a naive belief that Churchill couldn't be wrong. "All that is needed is the resolve of hundreds of millions of men and women to do right instead of wrong and to gain as their reward blessing instead of cursing" This could have come from an A Level "Communism for Beginners" hand book It just wouldn't, and won't, work.
Just imagine if, in a few years, Iran, North Korea or Pakistan get above themselves (or a group of terrorists in the Middle East) and decide to lob a few nukes Europe's way. Do you think you are ever going to get 27 countries to agree on the best course of action in under 3 months? Never. It'll be the Brits taking a unilateral decision or maybe France and Germany asking the USA to help out.
And more fundementally the British people don't like foreigners. They don't want to work in a group of 26 other countries. And as I posted before we can't afford to be at the top table any more and we can't afford it anymore. Just look at all the money we spend on wars and weapons and then look back at UK and see our children not being educated properly or old folk who can't afford their heating bills.
dl
It just wouldn't, and won't, work.Just imagine if, in a few years, Iran, North Korea or Pakistan get above themselves (or a group of terrorists in the Middle East) and decide to lob a few nukes Europe's way. Do you think you are ever going to get 27 countries to agree on the best course of action in under 3 months? Never. It'll be the Brits taking a unilateral decision or maybe France and Germany asking the USA to help out.
And more fundementally the British people don't like foreigners. They don't want to work in a group of 26 other countries. And as I posted before we can't afford to be at the top table any more and we can't afford it anymore. Just look at all the money we spend on wars and weapons and then look back at UK and see our children not being educated properly or old folk who can't afford their heating bills.
dl
04 December 2010, 11:35 AM
#134
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04 December 2010, 11:39 AM
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You then ask why have national boundaries at all? To preserve privilege? Hard to justify that.
04 December 2010, 12:36 PM
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04 December 2010, 12:51 PM
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Globilization. You can't ignore it.
ETA. Well I say that when actually you can; it's just that it has the unfortunate side effect of making ones arguments sound irrelevant.
ETA. Well I say that when actually you can; it's just that it has the unfortunate side effect of making ones arguments sound irrelevant.
Last edited by JTaylor; 04 December 2010 at 12:56 PM.
05 December 2010, 11:54 AM
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You are right about not ignoring it, but I reckon it is best avoided like the plague. World government would take the people right back to the dark ages! You cannot trust those who gain overall power without any need to worry about any kind of backlash.
Les
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