Quality policing of student demos - NOT!!!
14 December 2010, 06:47 PM
#61
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Yes he has rights, but I'm sure the police are authorised to remove any person against their will who they believe is liable to be harmed.
If that involves a struggle with said person, so be it.
Years ago I found a guy trying to cut his throat and wrists. I talked him down and bit and at the same time called the police.
About 6 cops showed up, asps drawn, and charged him straight through a fence. As aggressive as it was, it was done well and for the right reasons. Had anyone caught the tail end of that situation it would have appeared complete overkill.
14 December 2010, 06:48 PM
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if the said person was abusive or aggresive like any undisabled person. i have nothing against a disabled person and do not treat them any differently to anyone else and although what happened in the video was not right, i would of like to have seen what has happened before to find out why it has resulted in what it has.
14 December 2010, 06:52 PM
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Once an offence has been committed a police officer has the right to lay hands on you, how you then behave will determine how that encounter progresses.
14 December 2010, 07:05 PM
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Hitting someone over the head is not necessarily reasonable force.
14 December 2010, 07:13 PM
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Abusing in what way, shouting, spitting, hitting, throwing objects? Or are none of these an offence against a police officer?
Hitting someone over the head through decision and choice is indeed excessive force. Having a group baring down on you and swinging your baton and striking domaines head in the process IS reasonable.
Like other things the definition of reasonable force is quite fluid and depends on the situation being encountered. Of course, randomly charging and dragging a man from a wheelchair without cause would be very excessive.
14 December 2010, 07:15 PM
#66
Where did you see this? The only clips I could fine are posted and neither shows anyone in a wheelchair being hit over the head with a baton.
14 December 2010, 07:18 PM
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I think it's easy to have a pop at the police after the event. I'm sure if i'd have spent the day being verbally abused, punched, kicked, missiles of all description being thrown at me, i too might come across as being agressive and unreasonable.
Hit or be hit, i know which i would prefer.....
Hit or be hit, i know which i would prefer.....
14 December 2010, 07:25 PM
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Some more information come to light on the so-called *disabled* student ... See Guidos blog at ... http://order-order.com/2010/12/14/wh...ers-complaint/
"... Jody Macinytre, radical pro-Palestine supporter and sufferer from cerebral palsy has made much hay of the fact he was dragged out of his wheelchair by riot police at Thursday’s protests. Yet he has previously admitted to be coordinating breaking police lines. He claims on his blog he is a revolutionary yet spent a BBC interview declaring his innocence and denied live on Sky that he was in fact a revolutionary before going on to claim that the police had no reason to move him out of the way. However he has revelled in, and incited, violence on his website.
His argument is undone when a quick glance at his blog shows that he has been at the forefront of the protests so far at Westminster and managed to walk all the way up to the top of Millbank back in November, blogging that “It was an epic mission to the top. Nine floors; eighteen flights of stairs. Two friends carried my wheelchair, and I walked.” Macintyre can’t hide behind his disability when the police treat him like any other violent trespassing thug. It’s called equality…
Hat-Tip : Phil Taylor
UPDATE: Further pictorial evidence emerges of the police being as gentle as possible in moving Macintyre and in doing so the officers put themselves in personal danger from the hail of missiles. Here is a quote from Graham Mitchell the photographer “Mr McIntyre was in the front row of the crowd and in a very precarious position, especially as he is wheelchair bound. It was clear from my vantage point that the police moved him as gently as possible and in doing so the officers put themselves in personal danger from the hail of missiles. Once he had been moved away from the front line to a safe distance, the officers sat him on a low level wall. Mr McIntyre got up and started arguing with an officer. He was so wound up that he eventually tried to strike an officer and was only stopped from doing this due to the intervention of a famale passer-by.” ..."
My bold emphasis part way through. The guy walked up 18 flights of stairs!!!!! At the rate his story is unravelling you'd think he was a ConDem plant to make the police/politicians look like the good guys ......
Dave
"... Jody Macinytre, radical pro-Palestine supporter and sufferer from cerebral palsy has made much hay of the fact he was dragged out of his wheelchair by riot police at Thursday’s protests. Yet he has previously admitted to be coordinating breaking police lines. He claims on his blog he is a revolutionary yet spent a BBC interview declaring his innocence and denied live on Sky that he was in fact a revolutionary before going on to claim that the police had no reason to move him out of the way. However he has revelled in, and incited, violence on his website.
His argument is undone when a quick glance at his blog shows that he has been at the forefront of the protests so far at Westminster and managed to walk all the way up to the top of Millbank back in November, blogging that “It was an epic mission to the top. Nine floors; eighteen flights of stairs. Two friends carried my wheelchair, and I walked.” Macintyre can’t hide behind his disability when the police treat him like any other violent trespassing thug. It’s called equality…
Hat-Tip : Phil Taylor
UPDATE: Further pictorial evidence emerges of the police being as gentle as possible in moving Macintyre and in doing so the officers put themselves in personal danger from the hail of missiles. Here is a quote from Graham Mitchell the photographer “Mr McIntyre was in the front row of the crowd and in a very precarious position, especially as he is wheelchair bound. It was clear from my vantage point that the police moved him as gently as possible and in doing so the officers put themselves in personal danger from the hail of missiles. Once he had been moved away from the front line to a safe distance, the officers sat him on a low level wall. Mr McIntyre got up and started arguing with an officer. He was so wound up that he eventually tried to strike an officer and was only stopped from doing this due to the intervention of a famale passer-by.” ..."
My bold emphasis part way through. The guy walked up 18 flights of stairs!!!!! At the rate his story is unravelling you'd think he was a ConDem plant to make the police/politicians look like the good guys ......
Dave
14 December 2010, 07:32 PM
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Both statements would require further detail, and clarification.
Abusing in what way, shouting, spitting, hitting, throwing objects? Or are none of these an offence against a police officer?
Hitting someone over the head through decision and choice is indeed excessive force. Having a group baring down on you and swinging your baton and striking domaines head in the process IS reasonable.
Like other things the definition of reasonable force is quite fluid and depends on the situation being encountered. Of course, randomly charging and dragging a man from a wheelchair without cause would be very excessive.
Abusing in what way, shouting, spitting, hitting, throwing objects? Or are none of these an offence against a police officer?
Hitting someone over the head through decision and choice is indeed excessive force. Having a group baring down on you and swinging your baton and striking domaines head in the process IS reasonable.
Like other things the definition of reasonable force is quite fluid and depends on the situation being encountered. Of course, randomly charging and dragging a man from a wheelchair without cause would be very excessive.
...and how would dragging a man from his wheelchair be reasonable force?
14 December 2010, 08:45 PM
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Hmm, just watched another video of him claiming that he considers 'The Palestinian people' 'his family' ..........
Serial gob****e by the look of it.
I repeat, grow up, shut up and go home.
Serial gob****e by the look of it.
I repeat, grow up, shut up and go home.
14 December 2010, 09:05 PM
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So anyone thinkin about a fuel protest betta not break the law (even just a little bit) after the police have dragged you outa yer car yer and kicked the sh*t outa you, your fellow"supporters" are gonna stand there and blame you.
14 December 2010, 09:11 PM
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Some more information come to light on the so-called *disabled* student ... See Guidos blog at ... http://order-order.com/2010/12/14/wh...ers-complaint/
"... Jody Macinytre, radical pro-Palestine supporter and sufferer from cerebral palsy has made much hay of the fact he was dragged out of his wheelchair by riot police at Thursday’s protests. Yet he has previously admitted to be coordinating breaking police lines. He claims on his blog he is a revolutionary yet spent a BBC interview declaring his innocence and denied live on Sky that he was in fact a revolutionary before going on to claim that the police had no reason to move him out of the way. However he has revelled in, and incited, violence on his website.
His argument is undone when a quick glance at his blog shows that he has been at the forefront of the protests so far at Westminster and managed to walk all the way up to the top of Millbank back in November, blogging that “It was an epic mission to the top. Nine floors; eighteen flights of stairs. Two friends carried my wheelchair, and I walked.” Macintyre can’t hide behind his disability when the police treat him like any other violent trespassing thug. It’s called equality…
Hat-Tip : Phil Taylor
UPDATE: Further pictorial evidence emerges of the police being as gentle as possible in moving Macintyre and in doing so the officers put themselves in personal danger from the hail of missiles. Here is a quote from Graham Mitchell the photographer “Mr McIntyre was in the front row of the crowd and in a very precarious position, especially as he is wheelchair bound. It was clear from my vantage point that the police moved him as gently as possible and in doing so the officers put themselves in personal danger from the hail of missiles. Once he had been moved away from the front line to a safe distance, the officers sat him on a low level wall. Mr McIntyre got up and started arguing with an officer. He was so wound up that he eventually tried to strike an officer and was only stopped from doing this due to the intervention of a famale passer-by.” ..."
My bold emphasis part way through. The guy walked up 18 flights of stairs!!!!! At the rate his story is unravelling you'd think he was a ConDem plant to make the police/politicians look like the good guys ......
Dave
"... Jody Macinytre, radical pro-Palestine supporter and sufferer from cerebral palsy has made much hay of the fact he was dragged out of his wheelchair by riot police at Thursday’s protests. Yet he has previously admitted to be coordinating breaking police lines. He claims on his blog he is a revolutionary yet spent a BBC interview declaring his innocence and denied live on Sky that he was in fact a revolutionary before going on to claim that the police had no reason to move him out of the way. However he has revelled in, and incited, violence on his website.
His argument is undone when a quick glance at his blog shows that he has been at the forefront of the protests so far at Westminster and managed to walk all the way up to the top of Millbank back in November, blogging that “It was an epic mission to the top. Nine floors; eighteen flights of stairs. Two friends carried my wheelchair, and I walked.” Macintyre can’t hide behind his disability when the police treat him like any other violent trespassing thug. It’s called equality…
Hat-Tip : Phil Taylor
UPDATE: Further pictorial evidence emerges of the police being as gentle as possible in moving Macintyre and in doing so the officers put themselves in personal danger from the hail of missiles. Here is a quote from Graham Mitchell the photographer “Mr McIntyre was in the front row of the crowd and in a very precarious position, especially as he is wheelchair bound. It was clear from my vantage point that the police moved him as gently as possible and in doing so the officers put themselves in personal danger from the hail of missiles. Once he had been moved away from the front line to a safe distance, the officers sat him on a low level wall. Mr McIntyre got up and started arguing with an officer. He was so wound up that he eventually tried to strike an officer and was only stopped from doing this due to the intervention of a famale passer-by.” ..."
My bold emphasis part way through. The guy walked up 18 flights of stairs!!!!! At the rate his story is unravelling you'd think he was a ConDem plant to make the police/politicians look like the good guys ......
Dave
good stuffI'm not sure what sort of tolerance you have, but police officers while public servants are also human, and have as much right to polite and reasonable treatment as anyone else. Because someone wears a uniform, does not make them an acceptable target for any kind of abuse.
As for how I would justify dragging a man from a wheel chair reasonable force thought I had explained that once already. However, if while observing duty of care, a police officer believed a person to be putting themselves in danger, forcibly removing said person from wheelchair would be considered reasonable force in the line of duty.
Much the same way, running full speed at someone, and throwing your full weight at them,toppling them and putting them on the floor would be seen as reasonable if they were in the path of a moving car.
Hope that's a little clearer.
14 December 2010, 09:12 PM
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He was challenged on his responsibility and he was open about the fact that he was actively demonstrating.
14 December 2010, 09:18 PM
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Well the thugs better get used to taking a kicking. The Met have instructed their officers to be "more robust" when dealing with these matters,and the House of Lords just passed the tuitions fee rise...... Long live thuggery, and the morning after whiners who after giving as much as they can, just can't take a little back.
Simple rules here, it's not rocket science....
The containment had an exit in the direction of the official protest.... If you want to disassociate yourself with the violence and vandalism...MOVE ALONG!
If you CHOOSE to be in the thick of it, front the police, and be antisocial..... Take a bashing like a good little thug, then **** OFF and stop whining.
14 December 2010, 09:55 PM
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Years ago I found a guy trying to cut his throat and wrists. I talked him down and bit and at the same time called the police.
About 6 cops showed up, asps drawn, and charged him straight through a fence. As aggressive as it was, it was done well and for the right reasons. Had anyone caught the tail end of that situation it would have appeared complete overkill.
About 6 cops showed up, asps drawn, and charged him straight through a fence. As aggressive as it was, it was done well and for the right reasons. Had anyone caught the tail end of that situation it would have appeared complete overkill.
Explain to me the bit where this is reasonable force?
14 December 2010, 10:04 PM
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The idea of the tactic is to rapidly overpower the subject before harm is caused to himself or the officers with the weapon he is believed to have, having caused physical harm to himself.
It is reasonable due to maintaining their responsibility of duty of care to him and their colleagues. I'm sure a police officer could explain it better than me.
14 December 2010, 10:17 PM
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You think asp charging him was done for fun?
The idea of the tactic is to rapidly overpower the subject before harm is caused to himself or the officers with the weapon he is believed to have, having caused physical harm to himself.
It is reasonable due to maintaining their responsibility of duty of care to him and their colleagues. I'm sure a police officer could explain it better than me.
The idea of the tactic is to rapidly overpower the subject before harm is caused to himself or the officers with the weapon he is believed to have, having caused physical harm to himself.
It is reasonable due to maintaining their responsibility of duty of care to him and their colleagues. I'm sure a police officer could explain it better than me.
14 December 2010, 11:19 PM
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I think it more along the lines of me being untrained and unqualified to say if he was a danger to others or not, so they went along the line of caution.
It's not uncommon to charge someone in that kind of state. He was not talking to them, and no one could be sure if he still had the weapon he was using to harm himself.
Having sat near him, and chatted for about 15-20 mins in total, I could say for sure he was a lot calmer than previous, but still suicidal in his motives.
Having seen the situation from start to finish, I supported their actions. And obviously having his welfare at heart, I was pleased to see him subdued and made safe.
15 December 2010, 11:16 AM
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With regards to Snazy's situation..you might find that the guy was happy to speak to Snazy as he wasn't a cop.
Cops turn and he's less keen. Police procedures wouldn't allow a civilian to remain talking to the guy.
Trained negotiators might've been too far away.
Maybe a decision was made on the ground depending on how it was unfolding.
These days, the guy with the knife might find himself on the end of a Taser or baton round.
Cops turn and he's less keen. Police procedures wouldn't allow a civilian to remain talking to the guy.
Trained negotiators might've been too far away.
Maybe a decision was made on the ground depending on how it was unfolding.
These days, the guy with the knife might find himself on the end of a Taser or baton round.
15 December 2010, 11:25 AM
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With regards to Snazy's situation..you might find that the guy was happy to speak to Snazy as he wasn't a cop.
Cops turn and he's less keen. Police procedures wouldn't allow a civilian to remain talking to the guy.
Trained negotiators might've been too far away.
Maybe a decision was made on the ground depending on how it was unfolding.
These days, the guy with the knife might find himself on the end of a Taser or baton round.
Cops turn and he's less keen. Police procedures wouldn't allow a civilian to remain talking to the guy.
Trained negotiators might've been too far away.
Maybe a decision was made on the ground depending on how it was unfolding.
These days, the guy with the knife might find himself on the end of a Taser or baton round.
15 December 2010, 11:35 AM
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While I don't know the full ins and outs of the actually dragging out of the wheel chair he was earlier filmed climbing out of his wheel chair and refusing to get back in it for his own safety, instead heading towards the danger of the riots.
It could be argued that he was removed from his wheelchair and moved from the area for his own safety.
Not that this is my view but there are 2 sides to every story.
On another note, how DO you arrest someone in a wheelchair?
It could be argued that he was removed from his wheelchair and moved from the area for his own safety.
Not that this is my view but there are 2 sides to every story.
On another note, how DO you arrest someone in a wheelchair?
oh and you wheel-clamp them to arrest their escape
16 December 2010, 12:20 PM
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16 December 2010, 12:29 PM
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If a person is so unfortunate it means that he is unlikely to be able to move his limbs or body around in an agile manner.
If he is collared in such a fashion by someone else and dragged around the place, in the first place it can be agonising and secondly because he is not agile he may well be dragged in such a way that it will cause injury.
In any case, if he is in a wheelchair, unless the cops had information that he was not really disabled, than they have to assume that he is and therefore why drag him all over the road?
He is not going to run away so all they had to do was to take control of the wheelchair and move him out of the way!
Try putting yourself in the disabled person's place and have a bit of thought for him.
Les
16 December 2010, 12:55 PM
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16 December 2010, 01:00 PM
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I agree that certain disabilities combined with physical interaction can cause pain however footage of this guy suggests he was quite robust and mobile.
At the end of the day the police do need to consider the persons physical state, but when it's between being painfully dragged, or trampled by 200 people and some horses, I know which I'm choosing.
Disability is not a reason to be treated differently (in day to day life) , nor is it a right to treat others differently.
16 December 2010, 01:03 PM
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good stuffOk firstly I was replying to a very general comment you made. "abusing a police officer in itself is not an offence". I questioned the nature of abuse. Verbal or physical are both an offence as has been pointed out, and are covered by section 5 public order.
I'm not sure what sort of tolerance you have, but police officers while public servants are also human, and have as much right to polite and reasonable treatment as anyone else. Because someone wears a uniform, does not make them an acceptable target for any kind of abuse.
As for how I would justify dragging a man from a wheel chair reasonable force thought I had explained that once already. However, if while observing duty of care, a police officer believed a person to be putting themselves in danger, forcibly removing said person from wheelchair would be considered reasonable force in the line of duty.
Much the same way, running full speed at someone, and throwing your full weight at them,toppling them and putting them on the floor would be seen as reasonable if they were in the path of a moving car.
Hope that's a little clearer.
I will maintain again that swearing at an Officer is not an offense in itself.
16 December 2010, 01:04 PM
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So its not possible he could have been using the wheelchair as a means to stop the police from moving him ( obstruction ) ?
I know full well , for a heavy person anyway, it takes 6 paramedics to pickup someone in a wheelchair - 2 to spell the ones that are getting tired
I know full well , for a heavy person anyway, it takes 6 paramedics to pickup someone in a wheelchair - 2 to spell the ones that are getting tired
16 December 2010, 01:08 PM
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Had he tampered with his wheelchair, locked the wheels, put his fingers in the wheels and refused to move them..... We will never know.
At the end of the day it looks heavy handed, yet most people just watched on shouting at the police instead of getting involved, which might suggest it was sensible to clear the area for the charge that was expected.
This is a man with the strength in his arms to lift and propel himself, the strength and stamina in his legs to climb many flights of stairs. So moving or detaining him would be quite a struggle.
Had this happened to someone on a High St or something, to a regular everyday person many would frown. However this guy has made a reputation for himself, so most view the case a little differently.
16 December 2010, 01:14 PM
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Tell me more.
Are these like the, "if you send a cheque for too much they can't process your speeding ticket" defences or more genuine ones?
If you continue to swear while telling a story you can be arrested under sec 5, let alone directing abusive behaviour and language towards a police officer.