British pensioner v Illegal immigrants
16 December 2010, 12:06 AM
#31
There are plenty of people out there that work damned hard, just in low paid jobs, who may well not be able to make private pension contributions on top of their current outgoings, whether you agree with that or not.
There is a difference, in my opinion, between people who never contribute a penny to 'the pot' and think they should have their entire life supported by someone else, and someone who works hard, struggles on financially but can't afford a private pension along the way. The latter person has paid in, why shouldn't they get a little bit of that back in their final years?
16 December 2010, 11:33 AM
#33
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I am sorry, but I don't think that is entirely fair. Perhaps wrongly, I assumed part of NI payments went towards state pension. I don't think it's unreasonable to get a little back later in life.
There are plenty of people out there that work damned hard, just in low paid jobs, who may well not be able to make private pension contributions on top of their current outgoings, whether you agree with that or not.
There is a difference, in my opinion, between people who never contribute a penny to 'the pot' and think they should have their entire life supported by someone else, and someone who works hard, struggles on financially but can't afford a private pension along the way. The latter person has paid in, why shouldn't they get a little bit of that back in their final years?
There are plenty of people out there that work damned hard, just in low paid jobs, who may well not be able to make private pension contributions on top of their current outgoings, whether you agree with that or not.
There is a difference, in my opinion, between people who never contribute a penny to 'the pot' and think they should have their entire life supported by someone else, and someone who works hard, struggles on financially but can't afford a private pension along the way. The latter person has paid in, why shouldn't they get a little bit of that back in their final years?
16 December 2010, 11:34 AM
#34
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Instead of slating pensioners unfairly, just take note of the real meaning behind the post.
If you are lucky enough to make it, you might even be a pensioner too one day!
Les
16 December 2010, 12:40 PM
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Are you so slow off the mark that you can't see that this is a straight comparison between what a pensioner who has contributed to his National Insurance all his life as well his tax and his labour during that time gets, and an immigrant who has contributed nothing?
Instead of slating pensioners unfairly, just take note of the real meaning behind the post.
If you are lucky enough to make it, you might even be a pensioner too one day!
Les
Instead of slating pensioners unfairly, just take note of the real meaning behind the post.
If you are lucky enough to make it, you might even be a pensioner too one day!
Les
As I said most people bitching about how little they get from the state have been doing so long before the slack ***** "retired".
16 December 2010, 01:20 PM
#36
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put it this way, my missus is polish and her mum and dad were living in a private rented flat (they both worked full time), one of their mates told them about cheshire peaks and plains housing and they went for a visit. They now have a 3 bedroom house with subsidised rent, grants and vouchers for doing the place up and they have complained about the heating costs so are getting a new boiler and new double glazing.
All paid for by us, why give them a house when they were already paying for their own flat?
I went to cheshire peaks and plains cos i know someone who works there and im entitled to sweet **** all, can anyone tell me why we are funding immigrants to live here and giving them a better deal than people like me who have lived here for decades and paid thousands in tax?
We will be full of non british types soon as anyone with any sense will **** off to a less fcuked up country!
All paid for by us, why give them a house when they were already paying for their own flat?
I went to cheshire peaks and plains cos i know someone who works there and im entitled to sweet **** all, can anyone tell me why we are funding immigrants to live here and giving them a better deal than people like me who have lived here for decades and paid thousands in tax?
We will be full of non british types soon as anyone with any sense will **** off to a less fcuked up country!
16 December 2010, 01:21 PM
#37
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16 December 2010, 01:43 PM
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16 December 2010, 02:02 PM
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16 December 2010, 02:08 PM
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No Les - the OP is the usual pish spouted by the far right looking to cause the brain dead morons of Engerland to smash in the faces of an immigrant scumbag.
As I said most people bitching about how little they get from the state have been doing so long before the slack ***** "retired".
As I said most people bitching about how little they get from the state have been doing so long before the slack ***** "retired".
I know you might feel bad about your taxes supporting them, but when you retire, the workers of the day will be supporting you.
The comparison between them and the immigrants is inexcusable.
Les
16 December 2010, 03:05 PM
#41
Ok, there are soem people that are the "Soap Dodging" layabouts but I suspect most of those arent of retirement age yet, people approaching 65 at the moment were born just after the war and being a career claimaint wasnt really that prevalent, its those aged 18 to say 60 that are the problem, where they havent really paid in but still expect money out but they do that all their lives, I expect they get less when its a pension anyway.
My Grandad and Grandma arent wealthy, my Grandma was a seamstress who worked initially ion the war effort repairing uniforms that came back from the front, covered in all sorts, sewing up bullet holes and cleaning brains and blood off them, she then worked, after the war in a private firm for not a lot of money. My Grandad served in the Navy on minesweepers getting shot at, crammed in with 100 other blokes in stifling heat, he saw stuff he still wont tell us as it is too harrowing, he then spent his working life on a fruit and veg market, back breaking poorly paid work, mainly as he spent the years when he should have been getting trained, serving his apprenticship on a Corvette as a signalman, not a very useful skill in Civvy street, so consequently he didnt earn a vast ammount but raised two kids and paid for a house through being frugal and cautious, that stays with them to this day, nothing is wasted. They are both well spoken, dignified (more so than the wealthier people I know) and polite.
I really do take issue with you saying people like them dont deserve a pension as they havent made provision, I am not entirely sure that they dont have a small personal pension but I am sure they dotn have lots of spare cash in their late eighties, so from the seat of a 40 grand german car its very easy to pontificate and sound like a bit pompous about "my tax" money when in fact, you may find its their tax money that they paid in year after year before we were born, they paid their dues and as far as I am aware arent asking for any more.
They do however take issue with the ammount of immigrants and some of the stuff they tell me, it is sobering to see how much of a ride we are being taken for, this is now and this is the tax money we are paying in to peopel who never have and probably never will contribute, cant blame them, free stuff but who we can blame is the weak willed politicians that let all and sundry in and then wonder where all the resources go.
16 December 2010, 03:47 PM
#42
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I wasn't going to post anything in here but I can't help not doing after reading the OP again.
My parents are just 2 of those scummy soap dodging people who claim a pension.
My dad worked away for 5 days a week in a not very well paid sales job leaving my mum to drag up myself and 2 siblings (late '60's - 70's).
When we were all at skule she got a part-time job in the NHS as there was no money for childcare before/after school (if such a thing existed in those days) so had to be there for us during our primary school days.
When she came to retire it was discovered she'd worked 1 hour too little each week so didn't pay the full NIC's to able to claim a full pension, so now has a reduced pension to live on.
My dad only has a state pension as they couldn't afford a private one at the time as all the money was used to keep 3 kids clothed, warm and fed.
My parents are just 2 of those scummy soap dodging people who claim a pension.
My dad worked away for 5 days a week in a not very well paid sales job leaving my mum to drag up myself and 2 siblings (late '60's - 70's).
When we were all at skule she got a part-time job in the NHS as there was no money for childcare before/after school (if such a thing existed in those days) so had to be there for us during our primary school days.
When she came to retire it was discovered she'd worked 1 hour too little each week so didn't pay the full NIC's to able to claim a full pension, so now has a reduced pension to live on.
My dad only has a state pension as they couldn't afford a private one at the time as all the money was used to keep 3 kids clothed, warm and fed.
16 December 2010, 04:44 PM
#43
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I can sort of understand your logic but sometimes people simply cant make enough to make ends meet and generate a decent pension pot, not everyone in society can bu pretty much everyone who works pays some tax or National Insurance, the idea being you contribute for healthcare, schools, administration and a pension in your old age when no longer able to work.
Ok, there are soem people that are the "Soap Dodging" layabouts but I suspect most of those arent of retirement age yet, people approaching 65 at the moment were born just after the war and being a career claimaint wasnt really that prevalent, its those aged 18 to say 60 that are the problem, where they havent really paid in but still expect money out but they do that all their lives, I expect they get less when its a pension anyway.
My Grandad and Grandma arent wealthy, my Grandma was a seamstress who worked initially ion the war effort repairing uniforms that came back from the front, covered in all sorts, sewing up bullet holes and cleaning brains and blood off them, she then worked, after the war in a private firm for not a lot of money. My Grandad served in the Navy on minesweepers getting shot at, crammed in with 100 other blokes in stifling heat, he saw stuff he still wont tell us as it is too harrowing, he then spent his working life on a fruit and veg market, back breaking poorly paid work, mainly as he spent the years when he should have been getting trained, serving his apprenticship on a Corvette as a signalman, not a very useful skill in Civvy street, so consequently he didnt earn a vast ammount but raised two kids and paid for a house through being frugal and cautious, that stays with them to this day, nothing is wasted. They are both well spoken, dignified (more so than the wealthier people I know) and polite.
I really do take issue with you saying people like them dont deserve a pension as they havent made provision, I am not entirely sure that they dont have a small personal pension but I am sure they dotn have lots of spare cash in their late eighties, so from the seat of a 40 grand german car its very easy to pontificate and sound like a bit pompous about "my tax" money when in fact, you may find its their tax money that they paid in year after year before we were born, they paid their dues and as far as I am aware arent asking for any more.
They do however take issue with the ammount of immigrants and some of the stuff they tell me, it is sobering to see how much of a ride we are being taken for, this is now and this is the tax money we are paying in to peopel who never have and probably never will contribute, cant blame them, free stuff but who we can blame is the weak willed politicians that let all and sundry in and then wonder where all the resources go.
Ok, there are soem people that are the "Soap Dodging" layabouts but I suspect most of those arent of retirement age yet, people approaching 65 at the moment were born just after the war and being a career claimaint wasnt really that prevalent, its those aged 18 to say 60 that are the problem, where they havent really paid in but still expect money out but they do that all their lives, I expect they get less when its a pension anyway.
My Grandad and Grandma arent wealthy, my Grandma was a seamstress who worked initially ion the war effort repairing uniforms that came back from the front, covered in all sorts, sewing up bullet holes and cleaning brains and blood off them, she then worked, after the war in a private firm for not a lot of money. My Grandad served in the Navy on minesweepers getting shot at, crammed in with 100 other blokes in stifling heat, he saw stuff he still wont tell us as it is too harrowing, he then spent his working life on a fruit and veg market, back breaking poorly paid work, mainly as he spent the years when he should have been getting trained, serving his apprenticship on a Corvette as a signalman, not a very useful skill in Civvy street, so consequently he didnt earn a vast ammount but raised two kids and paid for a house through being frugal and cautious, that stays with them to this day, nothing is wasted. They are both well spoken, dignified (more so than the wealthier people I know) and polite.
I really do take issue with you saying people like them dont deserve a pension as they havent made provision, I am not entirely sure that they dont have a small personal pension but I am sure they dotn have lots of spare cash in their late eighties, so from the seat of a 40 grand german car its very easy to pontificate and sound like a bit pompous about "my tax" money when in fact, you may find its their tax money that they paid in year after year before we were born, they paid their dues and as far as I am aware arent asking for any more.
They do however take issue with the ammount of immigrants and some of the stuff they tell me, it is sobering to see how much of a ride we are being taken for, this is now and this is the tax money we are paying in to peopel who never have and probably never will contribute, cant blame them, free stuff but who we can blame is the weak willed politicians that let all and sundry in and then wonder where all the resources go.
For those that simply throw the "should have worked harder at school and you'd have a better job" line, it doesn't work like that; read said comments above. I wouldn't say simply that pensioners should all be subsidised to live a wealthy retirement regardless of contributions or private pensions but the simple fact is the state pension is there to create a minimum standard of living. Some folk will not have the option to contribute to a private pension throughout their working life.
That's my tuppence anyway.
16 December 2010, 05:25 PM
#44
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Excellent post. Unfortunately it seems some posters on here (usually the successful ones) seem to forget that not everyone will be successful in life, especially financially. That's the different classes for you. They then also have the "I'm alright jack" attitude. The thing is not everyone will have a well paid job, a successful career or private pension. The way the world works depicts that some will be wealthy and some will be poor. It also depicts that those better off will look down from their ivory towers and judge more than those who make a modest living.
For those that simply throw the "should have worked harder at school and you'd have a better job" line, it doesn't work like that; read said comments above. I wouldn't say simply that pensioners should all be subsidised to live a wealthy retirement regardless of contributions or private pensions but the simple fact is the state pension is there to create a minimum standard of living. Some folk will not have the option to contribute to a private pension throughout their working life.
That's my tuppence anyway.
For those that simply throw the "should have worked harder at school and you'd have a better job" line, it doesn't work like that; read said comments above. I wouldn't say simply that pensioners should all be subsidised to live a wealthy retirement regardless of contributions or private pensions but the simple fact is the state pension is there to create a minimum standard of living. Some folk will not have the option to contribute to a private pension throughout their working life.
That's my tuppence anyway.
16 December 2010, 05:30 PM
#45
put it this way, my missus is polish and her mum and dad were living in a private rented flat (they both worked full time), one of their mates told them about cheshire peaks and plains housing and they went for a visit. They now have a 3 bedroom house with subsidised rent, grants and vouchers for doing the place up and they have complained about the heating costs so are getting a new boiler and new double glazing.
All paid for by us, why give them a house when they were already paying for their own flat?
I went to cheshire peaks and plains cos i know someone who works there and im entitled to sweet **** all, can anyone tell me why we are funding immigrants to live here and giving them a better deal than people like me who have lived here for decades and paid thousands in tax?
We will be full of non british types soon as anyone with any sense will **** off to a less fcuked up country!
All paid for by us, why give them a house when they were already paying for their own flat?
I went to cheshire peaks and plains cos i know someone who works there and im entitled to sweet **** all, can anyone tell me why we are funding immigrants to live here and giving them a better deal than people like me who have lived here for decades and paid thousands in tax?
We will be full of non british types soon as anyone with any sense will **** off to a less fcuked up country!
Stop encouraging them by marrying them!
16 December 2010, 06:16 PM
#47
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30% of the working age population are not working and 30% of pensioners bitch about not getting enough free money from the 70% of the population who are willing to work.
You continue believing it's a co-incidence if you want
16 December 2010, 06:18 PM
#48
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and for the record I would increase the state pension for those that have worked all their lives - for spongers that make it to 65 having contributed **** all - they can **** off and die !
16 December 2010, 06:25 PM
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No stamp = no pension.
The only people who should have their stamp "paid" by the state is Mothers bringing up kids.
16 December 2010, 06:48 PM
#51
Excellent post. Unfortunately it seems some posters on here (usually the successful ones) seem to forget that not everyone will be successful in life, especially financially. That's the different classes for you. They then also have the "I'm alright jack" attitude. The thing is not everyone will have a well paid job, a successful career or private pension. The way the world works depicts that some will be wealthy and some will be poor. It also depicts that those better off will look down from their ivory towers and judge more than those who make a modest living.
For those that simply throw the "should have worked harder at school and you'd have a better job" line, it doesn't work like that; read said comments above. I wouldn't say simply that pensioners should all be subsidised to live a wealthy retirement regardless of contributions or private pensions but the simple fact is the state pension is there to create a minimum standard of living. Some folk will not have the option to contribute to a private pension throughout their working life.
That's my tuppence anyway.
For those that simply throw the "should have worked harder at school and you'd have a better job" line, it doesn't work like that; read said comments above. I wouldn't say simply that pensioners should all be subsidised to live a wealthy retirement regardless of contributions or private pensions but the simple fact is the state pension is there to create a minimum standard of living. Some folk will not have the option to contribute to a private pension throughout their working life.
That's my tuppence anyway.
The welfare state has an element of trying to equalize the provision of basic services so people who do these low paid jobs dont descend into poverty, its out there but by no means as bad as it would be if we were without it. Basically dont expect things to be cheap in the shops or when you go for a meal if the waiter gets paid enough to provide his own house, pension, transport, heat, light, food etc etc, we cant have it both ways, i.e. no tax and cheap prices in the shops, we would end up with no service industry and loads of people dying in the street. Trouble is the welfare safety net has become more of a trap that is hard to get out of and a lot think they dont want to.
I think that really we arent far away from as effective a system as has existed, strange as it may seem but look at Communism, it doesnt work and neither does unfettered capitalism without welfare, we kind of exist in a hybrid between the two and adjusting the shift between the two is a difficult balancing act for the government, especially given the economic climate, its easy to moan about them but basically they can only work with what they are given to work with, even the most inept administration in the world would do well if,
Those that could work, did work
Those in work, worked hard, didnt go off sick all the time
All those in work paid a fair ammount of tax
People led heathier lives, less drain on the NHS
People stop focussing on instant gratification.
People were not destructive to property and violent to each other
People were less greedy, the rich in trying to avoid tax and the poor
not trying to claim what they arent entitled to
As a country acted as a closed loop, allowing in only people who would contribute and a
fair share relative to other countries of those in need from other countries.
As it is, not everyone abides by these ideas, in fact we have a drunken, shirking, lazy, grasping, bloated, non contributing section of society, difficult to pin down with legislation and broad brush policy as you may catch 90 percent of the target individuals but unfairly penalise the other ten percent.
I dont think we will ever have a utopian society, there will always be winners and losers in life, financially, I think human nature would need to change and perhaps people start thinking about society as a whole rather than them as an individual, perhaps perceiving others like members of their own family, trouble is nobody will let their guard down as you will get mugged, scammed or shagged.
16 December 2010, 07:40 PM
#52
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After my comment I felt that what I said was in some way wrong. Should the sort of pensioner that Jacko's grandparents are go without? Of course not and if thats how I came across I apologise. And Jacko I'm not sitting in some ivory tower looking down my nose, I come from a very verh humble background.
The thing is though that not all pensioners are like that. You told me about your parents now let me tell you about my parents. My late father would be about 75 if he were alive. He was never in a highly paid job but worked like a dog and lived a very simple life.
He never went on holiday and hardly went to the pub, never gambled or ate in restaurants etc. At the time I remember my dads mates would be down the pub every night, in the bookies at the weekends etc.
When I bump into some of these guys now they complain how hard it is now to make ends meet. If my father had been alive he would have been far from rich but would have just about put enough away to have a half decent standard of living.
He would still have had to be careful with his spending but never would have lacked a warm house, plenty of food and a simple car.
So we are all shaped by our experiences and these are mine. I don't want to be paying for those matesof my dads who I described.
The thing is though that not all pensioners are like that. You told me about your parents now let me tell you about my parents. My late father would be about 75 if he were alive. He was never in a highly paid job but worked like a dog and lived a very simple life.
He never went on holiday and hardly went to the pub, never gambled or ate in restaurants etc. At the time I remember my dads mates would be down the pub every night, in the bookies at the weekends etc.
When I bump into some of these guys now they complain how hard it is now to make ends meet. If my father had been alive he would have been far from rich but would have just about put enough away to have a half decent standard of living.
He would still have had to be careful with his spending but never would have lacked a warm house, plenty of food and a simple car.
So we are all shaped by our experiences and these are mine. I don't want to be paying for those matesof my dads who I described.
Last edited by Dingdongler; 16 December 2010 at 07:50 PM.
16 December 2010, 07:42 PM
#53
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Fact is an immigrant gets more money than somebody who has worked here all of their life, which is a disgrace TBVFH.
Also according to you
You seem to forget people who are retirement age now brought up larger families back in the day, my Grandparents brough up my mother and three sisters then adopted a boy because they wanted one, so thats five kids they brought up, yet because they brought up a big family they have little left in the pot for retirement, ohh and they both worked all of their lifes as well, I guess they are the soap dodgers your talking about
Please engage your brain before opening your mouth in future Jasey.
16 December 2010, 08:04 PM
#54
After my comment I felt that what I said was in some way wrong. Should the sort of pensioner that Jacko's grandparents are go without? Of course not and if thats how I came across I apologise. And Jacko I'm not sitting in some ivory tower looking down my nose, I come from a very verh humble background.
But its all getting a bit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo
16 December 2010, 08:26 PM
#58
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Are you telling me that your Grand parents are/were completely reliant on the state pension for their retirement ?
I know a lot of pensioners - but don't know any that rely entirely on the state for their survival - most of them have savings / family support etc.
16 December 2010, 08:30 PM
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I'll try a different approach
Are you telling me that your Grand parents are/were completely reliant on the state pension for their retirement ?
I know a lot of pensioners - but don't know any that rely entirely on the state for their survival - most of them have savings / family support etc.
Are you telling me that your Grand parents are/were completely reliant on the state pension for their retirement ?
I know a lot of pensioners - but don't know any that rely entirely on the state for their survival - most of them have savings / family support etc.
16 December 2010, 10:38 PM
#60
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Yes, you got my point entirely, every time you go out to eat you see waitresses and kitchen staff, you see porters in hotels, people sweeping town centres, people digging graves, people emptying bins, standard office administrators, the bloke who delivers your shopping from Waitrose, etc etc. I would imagine each one listed is on less than £10 an hour from which they have to live and potentially put half a million pounds away for their dotage, it will never happen.
The welfare state has an element of trying to equalize the provision of basic services so people who do these low paid jobs dont descend into poverty, its out there but by no means as bad as it would be if we were without it. Basically dont expect things to be cheap in the shops or when you go for a meal if the waiter gets paid enough to provide his own house, pension, transport, heat, light, food etc etc, we cant have it both ways, i.e. no tax and cheap prices in the shops, we would end up with no service industry and loads of people dying in the street. Trouble is the welfare safety net has become more of a trap that is hard to get out of and a lot think they dont want to.
I think that really we arent far away from as effective a system as has existed, strange as it may seem but look at Communism, it doesnt work and neither does unfettered capitalism without welfare, we kind of exist in a hybrid between the two and adjusting the shift between the two is a difficult balancing act for the government, especially given the economic climate, its easy to moan about them but basically they can only work with what they are given to work with, even the most inept administration in the world would do well if,
Those that could work, did work
Those in work, worked hard, didnt go off sick all the time
All those in work paid a fair ammount of tax
People led heathier lives, less drain on the NHS
People stop focussing on instant gratification.
People were not destructive to property and violent to each other
People were less greedy, the rich in trying to avoid tax and the poor
not trying to claim what they arent entitled to
As a country acted as a closed loop, allowing in only people who would contribute and a
fair share relative to other countries of those in need from other countries.
As it is, not everyone abides by these ideas, in fact we have a drunken, shirking, lazy, grasping, bloated, non contributing section of society, difficult to pin down with legislation and broad brush policy as you may catch 90 percent of the target individuals but unfairly penalise the other ten percent.
I dont think we will ever have a utopian society, there will always be winners and losers in life, financially, I think human nature would need to change and perhaps people start thinking about society as a whole rather than them as an individual, perhaps perceiving others like members of their own family, trouble is nobody will let their guard down as you will get mugged, scammed or shagged.
The welfare state has an element of trying to equalize the provision of basic services so people who do these low paid jobs dont descend into poverty, its out there but by no means as bad as it would be if we were without it. Basically dont expect things to be cheap in the shops or when you go for a meal if the waiter gets paid enough to provide his own house, pension, transport, heat, light, food etc etc, we cant have it both ways, i.e. no tax and cheap prices in the shops, we would end up with no service industry and loads of people dying in the street. Trouble is the welfare safety net has become more of a trap that is hard to get out of and a lot think they dont want to.
I think that really we arent far away from as effective a system as has existed, strange as it may seem but look at Communism, it doesnt work and neither does unfettered capitalism without welfare, we kind of exist in a hybrid between the two and adjusting the shift between the two is a difficult balancing act for the government, especially given the economic climate, its easy to moan about them but basically they can only work with what they are given to work with, even the most inept administration in the world would do well if,
Those that could work, did work
Those in work, worked hard, didnt go off sick all the time
All those in work paid a fair ammount of tax
People led heathier lives, less drain on the NHS
People stop focussing on instant gratification.
People were not destructive to property and violent to each other
People were less greedy, the rich in trying to avoid tax and the poor
not trying to claim what they arent entitled to
As a country acted as a closed loop, allowing in only people who would contribute and a
fair share relative to other countries of those in need from other countries.
As it is, not everyone abides by these ideas, in fact we have a drunken, shirking, lazy, grasping, bloated, non contributing section of society, difficult to pin down with legislation and broad brush policy as you may catch 90 percent of the target individuals but unfairly penalise the other ten percent.
I dont think we will ever have a utopian society, there will always be winners and losers in life, financially, I think human nature would need to change and perhaps people start thinking about society as a whole rather than them as an individual, perhaps perceiving others like members of their own family, trouble is nobody will let their guard down as you will get mugged, scammed or shagged.
Having read through your post twice to fully digest what's said, I fully agree J4CKO
The point with regards lower paid folk regardless of education, intelligence, background or whatever, is that there will always be people required to do minimum wage jobs.
Without getting personal and mentioning names, I am suprised by the attitudes of some on here (for as long as I've been a member) who toe the line with regards to my previous comments of "I'm alright jack" and "should have tried harder at school", especially if any of them came from poor upbringings and made successes of themselves. It sometimes comes across that some of those that didn't have a pot to **** in as a child but now have a few quid (for whatever reason) forget about the lower classes and the fact that all these jobs which may not yeild a private pension need to be done. Unfortunately there seems to be examples in this thread from reading all the comments.
(In a nutshell J4CKO +1
)