L.J.F

iTrader: (31)

What was the weather forecast for tomorrow mate?

boomer

I was on your side until this point!

Hey, why not also install cameras in everyone's houses in case they are up to no good, and snoop their interweb activity in case they are viewing "Frosties" extreme **** and put GPS trackers in everybodies cars (after all, speed kills dontyaknow) and as for kitchen knives....

Let's face it everyone is a criminal (apart from "those in charge") - just gotta get the evidence, that's all

mb

Bonehead

Well how do we catch villians then oh informed one?

Do tell us from your many years of frontline policing experience how the best way is for us to do our work.
Clearly we dont know what we're doing and need your enlightened and detailed knowledge of law enforcement and how to be pro-active

What a stupid comment "everyone's a criminal"

And yes speed does sometimes kill. How else do you explain what happened to the RTC I was first on scene at where two brothers were racing each other as the younger had just passed his driving test and spun into a wall. Very nice that seeing the insides of some kids head all over the dashboard.
I bet you'd swap with me having to break the news to his family

Why dont you get of your high horse and sign up to be a Special PC and you'll see what it's like being in the Police

Trout

iTrader: (1)

When you stop questioning what the Police are up to, and there is no transparency as to what they are up to then you are by definition living in a Police state.

It was an out of the ordinary exercise that seems to have gone badly wrong. It is terrible for all involved and it would easier all around if it was clearer what was going on.

Personally I think it is perfectly reasonable.

Snazy

Which part of an anpr operation is so intrusive?
Don't quite see the parallel you are drawing up.
Having had a few anpr operations based from my road, seeing some of the stops done, sometimes with CO19 are not only well executed, but also rewarding too.

Sometimes looking more into how a system works, allows you to understand it's benefits, and also put your mind at rest. For me, I have nothing to hide, and if technology can be used to deter, detect, prevent and solve crimes, they can do as they please.

For the record it was not an out of the ordinary operation at all revenue collection operations have been going on for years now, with cross force cooperation. The operation was normal, the actions and outcome of an encounter with a single individual was out of the ordinary. Sadly 2 officers took a knife that could have otherwise ended up in someone else.

Snazy

Errrm yes?

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

Sorry to jump in here, but while I know nothing about how things work in London, we have similar goings on up here.

While it doesn't happen every day, we sometimes have police at our Metro (like a train-ish) stations checking tickets. They are almost always there when the ticket inspectors are, presumably in case there is trouble, but sometimes they do work alone. I am not for a second saying that someone who evades a metro/bus/train fare is a career criminal, but to be honest you will at times find that someone who does that, can be a 'certain' type of person and in some circumstances as the op, will already be wanted for something else. Much like a stop for no tax/insurance can show up alot worse. (obviously not always, as it can be an error on the police part or simply not having tax/insurance is 'all' they have done wrong)

Me personally, I have been stopped by police to show my ticket. It's a moments inconvenience (if you can even call it that), and if it even only sometimes results in the apprehension of a criminal, then a few hours now and then are worth it.

ScoobyWon't

One of the main jobs which sticks in my mind is when I went to a report of an unconscious frmale. When I arrived it turned out to be a rape in progress. I can still picture the unconscious 15 year old girl, on the wet floor almost completely naked. That sticks with me more than all the dead bodies I've seen.
anyone who thinks the police are useless should sign up as a special to see what life is really like.

Snazy

Totally agree, it's not a big deal being stopped for a few minutes, in the car, on foot etc. Census however do annoy me lol.


Shocking mate, having a daughter of that age, it makes me sick to think people do these things, so can't imagine being called to such a scene.
Credit where credit is due, the police do a fantastic and varied job, far more varied than most give them credit for.
I'm sure there are people out there who still say we don't need the police and I will deal with it myself, but then who would be there for situations like that one!

Leslie

When it comes to what actually happened here, I don't think that the reason for checking tickets is of any significance. They may have a good reason for doing that and taken out of context I think it is wrong to criticise without knowing all the facts.

This was a terrible and uncalled for attack, the man was wanted anyway for being outside conditions previously placed upon him. I feel sorry for the wounded coppers and hope they soon recover fully.

Les

The Zohan

Did the Police arrest anyone for just standing there and not having a ticket (outstanding warrants aside)???

I am glad the stopped an evil scum-bag who deliberately took an offensive weapon out on the streets!

Sorry for the officers who got hurt

DCI Gene Hunt

Should start tasering any non-ticket holders on sight, especially "oyster card" holders.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Hapgood - you didn't answer my question?

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Unless they are fit then you can take them down the station for further 'questioning'!!

Chip

Who would of course still be alive had he been a law abiding citizen.

Chip

jasey

Indeed.

The police would have shot a different commuter - possibly even one of your family had they been unfortunate enough to be running for a train

Chip

Oh sorry , I didn't realise that the police intentionaly went out to shoot someone that day.

Chip

jasey

Oh I'm sorry - didn't realise their finger slipped - 23 times.

Chip

Thats because it didn't.

boomer

TBH, i have no problem with "manual" ANPR. Trained traffic police targeting a specific location and when the "ping" comes, actually being able to stop the suspect and if necessary take things further has got to be a good thing. It is just one step up from radio-ing a reg to check against the PNC.

Unfortunately the majority of ANPR is now fixed, un-manned and robotic.

When it was originally "invented", ANPR was installed on arterial roads and only activated when a significant event happened (e.g. a bank robbery) - that way the movement of criminals could be quickly traced. Over the years, more and more (non arterial) ANPRs where installed and they were permanently switched on. Now we have them all over the place including SPECS and the London congestion charge cameras (and don't forget the covert ones that were installed in certain parts of Birmingham but which had to be removed after a public outcry!). The recorded details are retained for two years and in the case of the CC cameras the met police now have a live feed (of cameras that were supposedly intended to reduce congestion) to assist their snooping.

Using made up figures (but ones that are probably quite realistic), 99.999% of the recorded (ANPR) items are of TOTALLY innocent people going about their normal daily business. Why on earth should this information be recorded in the first place, never mind retained for two years??

And as for the "nothing to hide", well you might not have (although that is no reason to be spied on) but (fixed) ANPR may well flag up an "association" whereby your car is regularly seen near a true crim/terrorist/kiddiefiddler/insert-latest-scare and you get flagged as a suspect - all because the computer says so

Bring back the bobby on the beat and traffic-pol on the road as the primary enforcer of the law and keep cameras/computers as a useful tool to be called upon as and when required.

mb

Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

^^ Introduced for our "safety" & now used to monitor our every movement ... you gotta love the UK

TX.

ScoobyWon't

I don't know how it works elsewhere, but in Notts, we've always had to have a target vehicle, a known direction of travel and then request that the council activate the fixed ANPR cameras. The decision to do so is down to the council CCTV operators.

The Zohan

Ok, I'll state the blinding obvious for you then

Oyster (Smart) card contains some personal info that can be read via a simple hand held 'reader' to ascertain who is the correct/legit owner


Fill you boots! http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14836.aspx
If you have any more Oyster Card questions then perhaps keep them to yourself or, here's a radical thought - look on the FAQ section, eh!


Oh and it is Mr Habgood to you!

Oh and why not answer this one then

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

I know some coppers can be a bit officious/on a power trip but I have never had a problem in any of my dealings with them, my feelings is that the Police provide more to the public in trems of service, help, courtesy than a lot deserve.

Imagine day in, day out hearing the same lame explanations for criminal acts, being spat at, called a pig, given attitude of smart **** kids and still having to retain a pleasant manner, they are only people and can sometimes come across badly.

All those who hate the Police, the scumbags, the criminals, the illegals and whatever soon make that call to 999 if something causes them an issue.

Coppers react in my experience to you being respectful and courteous and largely return in, amazes me the restraint some show on the telly (maybe because of) with the brainless idiots they deal with who try to goad them into a reaction.

Snazy

+1

The Zohan

i guess 99% or so of coppers do and are decent i have met some of the 1% that aren't but and not going to tar them all with that brush

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Is it blinding (sic) obvious to me how an Oyster card works. What I was pondering is how the Police have access to that information.

Normally private information is only available to the Police by warrant where reasonable cause needs to be demonstrated.

What gives the Police the right of access to Oyster information? Seems like a reasonable question as you were offering yourself as an 'expert'.

Snazy

I believe the transport inspectors and BTP are entitled to access that info based on the T&C's of an oyster card. It remains property of transport for London! And can be confiscated at any time.
Usually in a revenue collection operation, like this one, you would at least have TFL there, and sometimes Met too. Joint force ops are great for checking people out for a whole host of things, and turning up things just like they did here.
PACE+ TFL's access to oyster card info can really come up trumps at times.

Snazy

Yup I have met a few of the minority in my time too, but the are only humans too. The vast majority do a fantastic job.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

The card remains the property of TFL - but the card and your data are two entirely different things.

Are you suggesting the Police have a blanket waiver to your data?

And you wonder why some people think we live in a Police State!