Great news for all the police haters
#32
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Strange but true, it's silly operations like this that route out a huge number of wanted people, and generates a lot of intelligence for the police. ANPR is the other "pointless" one that is effective.
In the USA roadside stops account for a huge number of felony arrests.
So what looks dumb and infuriates people, is actually quite effective.
In the USA roadside stops account for a huge number of felony arrests.
So what looks dumb and infuriates people, is actually quite effective.
Hey, why not also install cameras in everyone's houses in case they are up to no good, and snoop their interweb activity in case they are viewing "Frosties" extreme **** and put GPS trackers in everybodies cars (after all, speed kills dontyaknow) and as for kitchen knives....
Let's face it everyone is a criminal (apart from "those in charge") - just gotta get the evidence, that's all
mb
#33
I was on your side until this point!
Hey, why not also install cameras in everyone's houses in case they are up to no good, and snoop their interweb activity in case they are viewing "Frosties" extreme **** and put GPS trackers in everybodies cars (after all, speed kills dontyaknow) and as for kitchen knives....
Let's face it everyone is a criminal (apart from "those in charge") - just gotta get the evidence, that's all
mb
Hey, why not also install cameras in everyone's houses in case they are up to no good, and snoop their interweb activity in case they are viewing "Frosties" extreme **** and put GPS trackers in everybodies cars (after all, speed kills dontyaknow) and as for kitchen knives....
Let's face it everyone is a criminal (apart from "those in charge") - just gotta get the evidence, that's all
mb
Do tell us from your many years of frontline policing experience how the best way is for us to do our work.
Clearly we dont know what we're doing and need your enlightened and detailed knowledge of law enforcement and how to be pro-active
What a stupid comment "everyone's a criminal"
And yes speed does sometimes kill. How else do you explain what happened to the RTC I was first on scene at where two brothers were racing each other as the younger had just passed his driving test and spun into a wall. Very nice that seeing the insides of some kids head all over the dashboard.
I bet you'd swap with me having to break the news to his family
Why dont you get of your high horse and sign up to be a Special PC and you'll see what it's like being in the Police
Last edited by Bonehead; 15 December 2010 at 10:52 PM.
#34
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Whatever the other half of this story, it's hard to imagine what a mere PCSO could possibly do to warrant being stabbed multiple times in the neck, particularly at 3pm on a busy street with plenty of potential witnesses around.
The 'more to this than meets the eye brigade' posting in this thread should hang their heads in shame for hinting at the police being somehow to blame here.
The 'more to this than meets the eye brigade' posting in this thread should hang their heads in shame for hinting at the police being somehow to blame here.
It was an out of the ordinary exercise that seems to have gone badly wrong. It is terrible for all involved and it would easier all around if it was clearer what was going on.
Personally I think it is perfectly reasonable.
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I was on your side until this point!
Hey, why not also install cameras in everyone's houses in case they are up to no good, and snoop their interweb activity in case they are viewing "Frosties" extreme **** and put GPS trackers in everybodies cars (after all, speed kills dontyaknow) and as for kitchen knives....
Let's face it everyone is a criminal (apart from "those in charge") - just gotta get the evidence, that's all
mb
Hey, why not also install cameras in everyone's houses in case they are up to no good, and snoop their interweb activity in case they are viewing "Frosties" extreme **** and put GPS trackers in everybodies cars (after all, speed kills dontyaknow) and as for kitchen knives....
Let's face it everyone is a criminal (apart from "those in charge") - just gotta get the evidence, that's all
mb
Don't quite see the parallel you are drawing up.
Having had a few anpr operations based from my road, seeing some of the stops done, sometimes with CO19 are not only well executed, but also rewarding too.
Sometimes looking more into how a system works, allows you to understand it's benefits, and also put your mind at rest. For me, I have nothing to hide, and if technology can be used to deter, detect, prevent and solve crimes, they can do as they please.
For the record it was not an out of the ordinary operation at all revenue collection operations have been going on for years now, with cross force cooperation. The operation was normal, the actions and outcome of an encounter with a single individual was out of the ordinary. Sadly 2 officers took a knife that could have otherwise ended up in someone else.
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Sorry to jump in here, but while I know nothing about how things work in London, we have similar goings on up here.
While it doesn't happen every day, we sometimes have police at our Metro (like a train-ish) stations checking tickets. They are almost always there when the ticket inspectors are, presumably in case there is trouble, but sometimes they do work alone. I am not for a second saying that someone who evades a metro/bus/train fare is a career criminal, but to be honest you will at times find that someone who does that, can be a 'certain' type of person and in some circumstances as the op, will already be wanted for something else. Much like a stop for no tax/insurance can show up alot worse. (obviously not always, as it can be an error on the police part or simply not having tax/insurance is 'all' they have done wrong)
Me personally, I have been stopped by police to show my ticket. It's a moments inconvenience (if you can even call it that), and if it even only sometimes results in the apprehension of a criminal, then a few hours now and then are worth it.
While it doesn't happen every day, we sometimes have police at our Metro (like a train-ish) stations checking tickets. They are almost always there when the ticket inspectors are, presumably in case there is trouble, but sometimes they do work alone. I am not for a second saying that someone who evades a metro/bus/train fare is a career criminal, but to be honest you will at times find that someone who does that, can be a 'certain' type of person and in some circumstances as the op, will already be wanted for something else. Much like a stop for no tax/insurance can show up alot worse. (obviously not always, as it can be an error on the police part or simply not having tax/insurance is 'all' they have done wrong)
Me personally, I have been stopped by police to show my ticket. It's a moments inconvenience (if you can even call it that), and if it even only sometimes results in the apprehension of a criminal, then a few hours now and then are worth it.
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Well how do we catch villians then oh informed one?
Do tell us from your many years of frontline policing experience how the best way is for us to do our work.
Clearly we dont know what we're doing and need your enlightened and detailed knowledge of law enforcement and how to be pro-active
What a stupid comment "everyone's a criminal"
And yes ispeed does sometimes kill. How else do you explain what happened to the RTC I was first on scene at where two brothers were racing each other as the younger had just passed his driving test and spun into a wall. Very nice that seeing the insides of some kids head all over the dashboard.
I bet you'd swap with me having to break the news to his family
Why dont you get of your high horse and sign up to be a Special PC and you'll see what it's like being in the Police
Do tell us from your many years of frontline policing experience how the best way is for us to do our work.
Clearly we dont know what we're doing and need your enlightened and detailed knowledge of law enforcement and how to be pro-active
What a stupid comment "everyone's a criminal"
And yes ispeed does sometimes kill. How else do you explain what happened to the RTC I was first on scene at where two brothers were racing each other as the younger had just passed his driving test and spun into a wall. Very nice that seeing the insides of some kids head all over the dashboard.
I bet you'd swap with me having to break the news to his family
Why dont you get of your high horse and sign up to be a Special PC and you'll see what it's like being in the Police
anyone who thinks the police are useless should sign up as a special to see what life is really like.
#39
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Sorry to jump in here, but while I know nothing about how things work in London, we have similar goings on up here.
While it doesn't happen every day, we sometimes have police at our Metro (like a train-ish) stations checking tickets. They are almost always there when the ticket inspectors are, presumably in case there is trouble, but sometimes they do work alone. I am not for a second saying that someone who evades a metro/bus/train fare is a career criminal, but to be honest you will at times find that someone who does that, can be a 'certain' type of person and in some circumstances as the op, will already be wanted for something else. Much like a stop for no tax/insurance can show up alot worse. (obviously not always, as it can be an error on the police part or simply not having tax/insurance is 'all' they have done wrong)
Me personally, I have been stopped by police to show my ticket. It's a moments inconvenience (if you can even call it that), and if it even only sometimes results in the apprehension of a criminal, then a few hours now and then are worth it.
While it doesn't happen every day, we sometimes have police at our Metro (like a train-ish) stations checking tickets. They are almost always there when the ticket inspectors are, presumably in case there is trouble, but sometimes they do work alone. I am not for a second saying that someone who evades a metro/bus/train fare is a career criminal, but to be honest you will at times find that someone who does that, can be a 'certain' type of person and in some circumstances as the op, will already be wanted for something else. Much like a stop for no tax/insurance can show up alot worse. (obviously not always, as it can be an error on the police part or simply not having tax/insurance is 'all' they have done wrong)
Me personally, I have been stopped by police to show my ticket. It's a moments inconvenience (if you can even call it that), and if it even only sometimes results in the apprehension of a criminal, then a few hours now and then are worth it.
One of the main jobs which sticks in my mind is when I went to a report of an unconscious frmale. When I arrived it turned out to be a rape in progress. I can still picture the unconscious 15 year old girl, on the wet floor almost completely naked. That sticks with me more than all the dead bodies I've seen.
anyone who thinks the police are useless should sign up as a special to see what life is really like.
anyone who thinks the police are useless should sign up as a special to see what life is really like.
Credit where credit is due, the police do a fantastic and varied job, far more varied than most give them credit for.
I'm sure there are people out there who still say we don't need the police and I will deal with it myself, but then who would be there for situations like that one!
#40
When it comes to what actually happened here, I don't think that the reason for checking tickets is of any significance. They may have a good reason for doing that and taken out of context I think it is wrong to criticise without knowing all the facts.
This was a terrible and uncalled for attack, the man was wanted anyway for being outside conditions previously placed upon him. I feel sorry for the wounded coppers and hope they soon recover fully.
Les
This was a terrible and uncalled for attack, the man was wanted anyway for being outside conditions previously placed upon him. I feel sorry for the wounded coppers and hope they soon recover fully.
Les
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I am glad the stopped an evil scum-bag who deliberately took an offensive weapon out on the streets!
Sorry for the officers who got hurt
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TBH, i have no problem with "manual" ANPR. Trained traffic police targeting a specific location and when the "ping" comes, actually being able to stop the suspect and if necessary take things further has got to be a good thing. It is just one step up from radio-ing a reg to check against the PNC.
Unfortunately the majority of ANPR is now fixed, un-manned and robotic.
When it was originally "invented", ANPR was installed on arterial roads and only activated when a significant event happened (e.g. a bank robbery) - that way the movement of criminals could be quickly traced. Over the years, more and more (non arterial) ANPRs where installed and they were permanently switched on. Now we have them all over the place including SPECS and the London congestion charge cameras (and don't forget the covert ones that were installed in certain parts of Birmingham but which had to be removed after a public outcry!). The recorded details are retained for two years and in the case of the CC cameras the met police now have a live feed (of cameras that were supposedly intended to reduce congestion) to assist their snooping.
Using made up figures (but ones that are probably quite realistic), 99.999% of the recorded (ANPR) items are of TOTALLY innocent people going about their normal daily business. Why on earth should this information be recorded in the first place, never mind retained for two years??
And as for the "nothing to hide", well you might not have (although that is no reason to be spied on) but (fixed) ANPR may well flag up an "association" whereby your car is regularly seen near a true crim/terrorist/kiddiefiddler/insert-latest-scare and you get flagged as a suspect - all because the computer says so
Bring back the bobby on the beat and traffic-pol on the road as the primary enforcer of the law and keep cameras/computers as a useful tool to be called upon as and when required.
mb
Unfortunately the majority of ANPR is now fixed, un-manned and robotic.
When it was originally "invented", ANPR was installed on arterial roads and only activated when a significant event happened (e.g. a bank robbery) - that way the movement of criminals could be quickly traced. Over the years, more and more (non arterial) ANPRs where installed and they were permanently switched on. Now we have them all over the place including SPECS and the London congestion charge cameras (and don't forget the covert ones that were installed in certain parts of Birmingham but which had to be removed after a public outcry!). The recorded details are retained for two years and in the case of the CC cameras the met police now have a live feed (of cameras that were supposedly intended to reduce congestion) to assist their snooping.
Using made up figures (but ones that are probably quite realistic), 99.999% of the recorded (ANPR) items are of TOTALLY innocent people going about their normal daily business. Why on earth should this information be recorded in the first place, never mind retained for two years??
And as for the "nothing to hide", well you might not have (although that is no reason to be spied on) but (fixed) ANPR may well flag up an "association" whereby your car is regularly seen near a true crim/terrorist/kiddiefiddler/insert-latest-scare and you get flagged as a suspect - all because the computer says so
Bring back the bobby on the beat and traffic-pol on the road as the primary enforcer of the law and keep cameras/computers as a useful tool to be called upon as and when required.
mb
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I don't know how it works elsewhere, but in Notts, we've always had to have a target vehicle, a known direction of travel and then request that the council activate the fixed ANPR cameras. The decision to do so is down to the council CCTV operators.
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Ok, I'll state the blinding obvious for you then
Oyster (Smart) card contains some personal info that can be read via a simple hand held 'reader' to ascertain who is the correct/legit owner
Fill you boots! http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14836.aspx
If you have any more Oyster Card questions then perhaps keep them to yourself or, here's a radical thought - look on the FAQ section, eh!
Oh and it is Mr Habgood to you!
Oh and why not answer this one then
Last edited by The Zohan; 17 December 2010 at 12:52 PM.
#54
I know some coppers can be a bit officious/on a power trip but I have never had a problem in any of my dealings with them, my feelings is that the Police provide more to the public in trems of service, help, courtesy than a lot deserve.
Imagine day in, day out hearing the same lame explanations for criminal acts, being spat at, called a pig, given attitude of smart **** kids and still having to retain a pleasant manner, they are only people and can sometimes come across badly.
All those who hate the Police, the scumbags, the criminals, the illegals and whatever soon make that call to 999 if something causes them an issue.
Coppers react in my experience to you being respectful and courteous and largely return in, amazes me the restraint some show on the telly (maybe because of) with the brainless idiots they deal with who try to goad them into a reaction.
Imagine day in, day out hearing the same lame explanations for criminal acts, being spat at, called a pig, given attitude of smart **** kids and still having to retain a pleasant manner, they are only people and can sometimes come across badly.
All those who hate the Police, the scumbags, the criminals, the illegals and whatever soon make that call to 999 if something causes them an issue.
Coppers react in my experience to you being respectful and courteous and largely return in, amazes me the restraint some show on the telly (maybe because of) with the brainless idiots they deal with who try to goad them into a reaction.
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I know some coppers can be a bit officious/on a power trip but I have never had a problem in any of my dealings with them, my feelings is that the Police provide more to the public in trems of service, help, courtesy than a lot deserve.
Imagine day in, day out hearing the same lame explanations for criminal acts, being spat at, called a pig, given attitude of smart **** kids and still having to retain a pleasant manner, they are only people and can sometimes come across badly.
All those who hate the Police, the scumbags, the criminals, the illegals and whatever soon make that call to 999 if something causes them an issue.
Coppers react in my experience to you being respectful and courteous and largely return in, amazes me the restraint some show on the telly (maybe because of) with the brainless idiots they deal with who try to goad them into a reaction.
Imagine day in, day out hearing the same lame explanations for criminal acts, being spat at, called a pig, given attitude of smart **** kids and still having to retain a pleasant manner, they are only people and can sometimes come across badly.
All those who hate the Police, the scumbags, the criminals, the illegals and whatever soon make that call to 999 if something causes them an issue.
Coppers react in my experience to you being respectful and courteous and largely return in, amazes me the restraint some show on the telly (maybe because of) with the brainless idiots they deal with who try to goad them into a reaction.
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#57
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Normally private information is only available to the Police by warrant where reasonable cause needs to be demonstrated.
What gives the Police the right of access to Oyster information? Seems like a reasonable question as you were offering yourself as an 'expert'.
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Is it blinding (sic) obvious to me how an Oyster card works. What I was pondering is how the Police have access to that information.
Normally private information is only available to the Police by warrant where reasonable cause needs to be demonstrated.
What gives the Police the right of access to Oyster information? Seems like a reasonable question as you were offering yourself as an 'expert'.
Normally private information is only available to the Police by warrant where reasonable cause needs to be demonstrated.
What gives the Police the right of access to Oyster information? Seems like a reasonable question as you were offering yourself as an 'expert'.
Usually in a revenue collection operation, like this one, you would at least have TFL there, and sometimes Met too. Joint force ops are great for checking people out for a whole host of things, and turning up things just like they did here.
PACE+ TFL's access to oyster card info can really come up trumps at times.
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The card remains the property of TFL - but the card and your data are two entirely different things.
Are you suggesting the Police have a blanket waiver to your data?
And you wonder why some people think we live in a Police State!
Are you suggesting the Police have a blanket waiver to your data?
And you wonder why some people think we live in a Police State!