J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Les, it isnt some Police death squad going round shooting the public, more a case of you give people guns they are able to kill other people, sometimes they get it wrong, but it is very very rare, on balance I will take my chance of taking a Hollow Point to the head as it is very very small against there being no armed Police whatsover.

You used to fly an 80 odd tonne plane, full of fuel and munitions over peoples houses, there was the potential for an accident or you top have an error of judgement that would have resulted in someones death, just like those firearms officers, thankfully you didnt.

Richie856

In normal circumstances police aren't trained to aim for the head but the main torso.
If you shoot 'to stop' there's no guarantee 1 shot or 2 would do it.
Again in 'normal' circumstances, after a shot there would probably be a pause and if the person then attempted to raise the weapon etc, another shot could be justified.
If you believe someone has a bomb strapped to them, you won't want to wait to see if one shot is enough.
Make sure there won't be any reflex twitches that could trigger something hence the head shots.
While there were a lot of rounds fired, I imagine if you or I were in that position thinking you could get blown up, you may well think, 'I'm making sure'.

Leslie

So far hopefully it is J4CKO, but you did not answer my point about shooting the man with table leg. You are allowed to transport an unloaded shotgun as long as you are licenced to possess it and it is in a cover so that you can't shoot it and that you take great care that it remains in your own possession. It seems a bit hard on that bloke with a bagged table leg to shoot him dead purely on suspicion.

Can't see what my job has to do with all this. The aircraft was actually heavier than that. I was a fully qualified flying instructor as well as an instrument rating examiner on that aircraft. Apart from teaching people how to fly it safely, the main point is that unlike the coppers involved above, I was not screaming about the place looking for someone to kill deliberately at the time. Quite the opposite in fact! I managed to avoid an error of judgement as you say for many years not only on that aircraft but also the other 28 types and marks that I flew. The reason was that I used to think very carefully before taking any kind of action with any machine I was flying at the time.

Can you say that of the armed police when they shot dead a man carrying a bagged table leg who was not taking any kind of threatening action? Are they free of any fault when you think about it?

Les

Richie856

Les,

Thinkning about the incident again....from the cops point of view, they say they issued a challenge and he turned round towards them in a threatening manner..ie..the table leg (unknown to them) was 'levelled' at them in the horizontal.
Doesn't matter if it's in a bag..you can still fire it.

The thing against the cops was that I think the guy had a hole in the back of his jacket or he was shot towards the rear of his head??
This would obviously tell a different story.

There have been a few shootings where the 'firearms' have been table legs and the like but if the reports are coming in that a person is carrying a firearm and that person is challenged and moves like he was carrying a firearm, he'll get shot.
We can only go on what the cops said in the particular incident you're talking about in that the guy made threatening movements.
You said he wasn't but do we know that either? The only circumstantial thing that goes with that is where he was shot?
Unfortunately withouth independent witnesses we'll never know.

With regards to your shotgun owners point...the thing there is that they will, more than likely, be carrying the shotgun over their shoulder.
Depending on where you live, members of the public could see that a lot, but wouldn't find it threatening. If someone was to see the same owner, but with a shotgun in a holdall/plastic bag, they would probably phone it in.
From there on it, it would come down to the owners actions that would determine the outcome.

Plastikman

Gotta jump in on this, seems the initial point subject has been lost. I cant believe there is anybody questioning the police or Volunteer. This man stabbed and slashed them, he was carrying a knife! and travelling on Public Transport. I wonder what would of happened if they hadnt be checking fares that day and this guy travelled unchallenged and a member of the public happened to bang into this guy or look the wrong way at him...........
Unfortunately for you people who live in the south, thats the world you live in. Crime is more prevalent, more agressive, more un called for, therefor policing has to be more intrusive. We dont have police or volunteers checking bus fares because we dont have fare dodgers but unfortuntely we have them for Taxi Queues because its everybodys right to excercise no self control, no self restraint or respect for others, its their right. The whole thing stinks. The cost to the country for this lack of self restraint, control or responsability is so fricking big it really twists my nipples! I have no persuasion to any political party because Im not tolerant or understanding of criminals and the liberal people who stand behind them, to me all partys have the wrong policy towards crime.

This guily man should be removed from society, be it very long term incarseration or lethal injection. I cannot see past the FACT that he swipped a knife at another mans throat, and repeatedly stabbed another with a Knife he carried. There is no proof needed for this unless he is of unsound mind in which case he has now proved he cannot live amoungst the rest of the community.

Snazy

Well said and well done for putting the thread back on track.

Snazy

I can see the point J4CKO was making, there are similarities. Had you been asked to drop a bomb somewhere, how many questions would you have asked before carrying out your job for national security?
Not having a dig, but flying a bomber surely calls for acting on orders too?

Obviously you were not required to make quite the same sort of decisions on the spot.

Back on track
I was pleased to hear the knifeman is being charged with attempted murder, fingers crossed the charges stick.

GC8WRX

snazy whats with the pro police agenda?

tony de wonderful

Sure it is fine if the government and police are populated by good people, but this sort of unregulated power can be abused by bad men and sometimes bad men are in power.

That is the reason for having judical over-sight and due process...because good men are not always in power.

Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

If you say the Magic Word on the phone, you will be recorded ...

TX.

Terminator X

iTrader: (7)

The trouble though fella is that technology just creeps closer & closer ... ANPR / CCTV today = cameras in your car tomorrow followed by your home the next day, just to make sure you're not breaking any laws there too. IMHO ANPR etc is a huge invasion of privacy which I'd vote out if I ever got the chance tbh I'm fecking that all this crap gets brought in without asking the taxpayer anyways.

TX.

Snazy

Lol WTF , "pro police agenda"
I am just relaxed about the police and unlike some, dont have some paranoid delusion that the are out to get me.
A also like to think I am realistic about their job and how it is carried out. Do you have to be pro or anti, is it that clear cut?

Trout

iTrader: (1)

In your first statement you have made it pro or anti.

I think you can have a view that the police should be transparently accountable for their actions - that is a little more cautious or sceptical than relaxed, but certainly not a paranoid delusion that they are out to get anyone.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

I think you are missing my point. I have an Oyster card and have had one for years.

I am not questioning Oyster any more than I question my bank card or my library card. I am questioning apparent blanket powers the Police have for accessing information.

You posted that the police have access to this information and it would appear that the Oyster terms do not allow blanket access.

So either you were mistaken, then fair enough, or the police are abusing their powers.

I am sure if it was your bank account details you would be concerned about the police having access without just cause and certainly a warrant.

ScoobyWon't

One of the main factors recorded for Ian Huntley being able to murder those two young girls was the fact that information was kept unshared by various organisations, including neighbouring police forces, which is why all partner agencies strive to share information in order to prevent more tragedies happening again in the future.

Leslie

I have no option but to defend what I was doing in my RAF career.

We were aligned against a common threat to the West. If we were attacked from there then we would have been ordered to take off on a one way trip to deliver a weapon on a military target. This would always have been in response to an attack from the other side.

We knew that in that case, while we were on the way, our own country would be being destroyed behind us. The defensive attacks from the West would also destroy the attacking country.

The fact that they knew that we would respond if they tried anything on prevented them from getting the idea of trying it on. That was the entire concept, ie "MAD" or mutually assured destruction. Neither side knew that they could win and that they would have nothing left.

You may not like the sound of that, as in fact we did not either, but it did succeed in preventing a conflict during the Cold War which would have effectively destroyed the world. There was no other approach under the circumstances.

The safety precautions on each side to prevent that happening accidentally were extreme to say the least.

Now you can tell me if we were acting incorrectly or in an immoral manner.

I in common with my crew had absolute faith in the leaders of the West that we wouild not be involved in an initial attack, but only as a defensive action.

The attitude expressed by some in this thread seem to lay blame on me for that kind of job which was part of my career. Should the country have no form of attack which is in fact a vital part of our defence?

Les