Threat level, severe
07 January 2011, 07:48 PM
#91
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Yes the euro powers were 'interfering' in the near and middle east in the late colonial period, but what was the alternative? Some local 'utopia'?! The Ottoman Empire had collapsed, the locals didn't even want it, the Arabs rebelled against Ottoman rule (the Caliphate!) helped by the British. Into that collapsing vacuum of Ottoman power you need some hegemony, some stability to provide security etc or you can anarchy, dark ages, economic collapse...the British fulfilled that role....it is entirely reasonable from a realistic POV.
You paint this as a narrative of 'the west' vs/oppressing 'Islam' - as the Islamists and their lefty apologists like to do - is to ignore history and the FACTS. It's absurd reductionism and propaganda for simpletons.
Nobody removed democratic governments in Iraq, but I would agree that the US's role in Iran was unjust but we don't live in a utopia and to extrapolate that episode to characterise the whole of recent history is dishonest at best.
By and large - with the exception of the US in Iran - the middle east - certainly the Arab world - has been free to forge its own destiny post WW2 though. You have a pattern of de-colonization and granting of independence etc. How long can you keep on blaming 'the west' for contemporary Arab problems?
Saddam eventually turned against the "WEST"(realising he had been manipulated).Threatening to stop oil supplies and refusing to bow down,(invading Kuwait didn't help, but thats a different question,no doubt yer gonna ask!)
But thank you fer askin in-tell-i-gent questions anyways.Maybes someone will learn from dis,eh?
Gots to go now,there's sum fu*er knockin at mi door,sounds like a batterin ram,wonder who that is??
But thank you fer askin in-tell-i-gent questions anyways.Maybes someone will learn from dis,eh?
Gots to go now,there's sum fu*er knockin at mi door,sounds like a batterin ram,wonder who that is??
A posture?
We backed Saddam as a counter-weight to Iran. Maybe it seems distasteful but again what was the alternative?
Ultimately Saddam took a gamble with Kuwait and it failed. You can see it as some 'courageous' stand against Western oppression if you want? I just see it as a failed political/economic gambit.
Last edited by tony de wonderful; 07 January 2011 at 07:50 PM.
07 January 2011, 08:43 PM
#94
If you have a point to make, then make it. If you have info to add, add it, don't just ask the same question over and over.
I DO NOT TRUST the police OR the intelligence sevices, and nor should anyone.
BOTH have been shown to tell lies and to have an agenda, plus BOTH will do exactly what their paymasters tell them. Trust either at your peril.
07 January 2011, 08:44 PM
#95
Nope,more religious propaganda.
The middle east/terrorist "opposition" only wants LESS interference from the West,they dont want to convert everyone.You are believing to much of what a tiny minority of people say.
Just to remind you, the West HAS supported Undemocraticlly elected desposts, Sadam Hussain (Iraq),Mohammed Reza Shah Pahlavi (IRAN).
The middle east/terrorist "opposition" only wants LESS interference from the West,they dont want to convert everyone.You are believing to much of what a tiny minority of people say.
Just to remind you, the West HAS supported Undemocraticlly elected desposts, Sadam Hussain (Iraq),Mohammed Reza Shah Pahlavi (IRAN).
And have you any idea what the q'ran says about, "the infidel"?
07 January 2011, 08:55 PM
#97
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I didn't say they were not entitled just pointing out that there is a movement with 'imperialist' like ambitions.
But the west has a capitalist agenda...correct?? is that more morally correct?
There has been unrest and disillusionment since the Ottoman empire went into decline etc.
How far in history do you want to go back????? I was refering to the last 40 years.Christ (pardon the pun) Dont think the Muslims are gonna hold the crusades, ETC against us,(the UK)
Yes the euro powers were 'interfering' in the near and middle east in the late colonial period, but what was the alternative? Some local 'utopia'?! The Ottoman Empire had collapsed, the locals didn't even want it, the Arabs rebelled against Ottoman rule (the Caliphate!) helped by the British. Into that collapsing vacuum of Ottoman power you need some hegemony, some stability to provide security etc or you can anarchy, dark ages, economic collapse...the British fulfilled that role....it is entirely reasonable from a realistic POV
.
I have said before, obtaining peace in the middle east is very difficult,the numerous tribes wont allow a "democracy" but the west has rarely taken the local populations interest into account,mainly taking advantage satisfying their own needs for oil,of course this is only a recent arguement this does not explain Muslim behaviour from umpteen+ years ago.How far do you want to go back??? (The killing of BRITISH soilders by Israelies (try googling that one))
You paint this as a narrative of 'the west' vs/oppressing 'Islam' - as the Islamists and teir lefty apologists like to do - is to ignore history and the FACTS. It's absurd reductionism and propaganda for simpletonsh.
Sorry bud,cant be arsed lookin up that supremacist statement,put it in laymans terms.BTW. It wasn't "leftists" that started this war,Correct???
Nobody removed democratic governments in Iraq, but I would agree that the US's role in Iran was unjust but we don't live in a utopia and to extrapolate that episode to characterise the whole of recent history is dishonest at best.
Other than we dont live in a utopia, you are wrong,the UK (with the help of the enthusiastic/finance US) put Saddam in charge,google it.The US (therefore the west) has oppressed ALL countries opposed to Western, capitalist culture,including South America,and Asia.Correct??
By and large - with the exception of the US in Iran - the middle east - certainly the Arab world - has been free to forge its own destiny post WW2 though. You have a pattern of de-colonization and granting of independence etc. How long can you keep on blaming 'the west' for contemporary Arab problems?
Nope, the Arab world has been free to forge its own destiny providing it is beneficial to the west.
I was talking about Islamists not all muslims.
What do you mean 'turned against'? 'Refused to bow down'?
Objection to Western culture.
A posture?
We backed Saddam as a counter-weight to Iran. Maybe it seems distasteful but again what was the alternative?
Was this at the same time Iran (public) were demanding the return of the original democratically elected (western opposed) ruler?
Ultimately Saddam took a gamble with Kuwait and it failed. You can see it as some 'courageous' stand against Western oppression if you want? I just see it as a failed political/economic gambit.
But the west has a capitalist agenda...correct?? is that more morally correct?
There has been unrest and disillusionment since the Ottoman empire went into decline etc.
How far in history do you want to go back????? I was refering to the last 40 years.Christ (pardon the pun) Dont think the Muslims are gonna hold the crusades, ETC against us,(the UK)
Yes the euro powers were 'interfering' in the near and middle east in the late colonial period, but what was the alternative? Some local 'utopia'?! The Ottoman Empire had collapsed, the locals didn't even want it, the Arabs rebelled against Ottoman rule (the Caliphate!) helped by the British. Into that collapsing vacuum of Ottoman power you need some hegemony, some stability to provide security etc or you can anarchy, dark ages, economic collapse...the British fulfilled that role....it is entirely reasonable from a realistic POV
.
I have said before, obtaining peace in the middle east is very difficult,the numerous tribes wont allow a "democracy" but the west has rarely taken the local populations interest into account,mainly taking advantage satisfying their own needs for oil,of course this is only a recent arguement this does not explain Muslim behaviour from umpteen+ years ago.How far do you want to go back??? (The killing of BRITISH soilders by Israelies (try googling that one))
You paint this as a narrative of 'the west' vs/oppressing 'Islam' - as the Islamists and teir lefty apologists like to do - is to ignore history and the FACTS. It's absurd reductionism and propaganda for simpletonsh.
Sorry bud,cant be arsed lookin up that supremacist statement,put it in laymans terms.BTW. It wasn't "leftists" that started this war,Correct???
Nobody removed democratic governments in Iraq, but I would agree that the US's role in Iran was unjust but we don't live in a utopia and to extrapolate that episode to characterise the whole of recent history is dishonest at best.
Other than we dont live in a utopia, you are wrong,the UK (with the help of the enthusiastic/finance US) put Saddam in charge,google it.The US (therefore the west) has oppressed ALL countries opposed to Western, capitalist culture,including South America,and Asia.Correct??
By and large - with the exception of the US in Iran - the middle east - certainly the Arab world - has been free to forge its own destiny post WW2 though. You have a pattern of de-colonization and granting of independence etc. How long can you keep on blaming 'the west' for contemporary Arab problems?
Nope, the Arab world has been free to forge its own destiny providing it is beneficial to the west.
I was talking about Islamists not all muslims.
What do you mean 'turned against'? 'Refused to bow down'?
Objection to Western culture.
A posture?
We backed Saddam as a counter-weight to Iran. Maybe it seems distasteful but again what was the alternative?
Was this at the same time Iran (public) were demanding the return of the original democratically elected (western opposed) ruler?
Ultimately Saddam took a gamble with Kuwait and it failed. You can see it as some 'courageous' stand against Western oppression if you want? I just see it as a failed political/economic gambit.
07 January 2011, 09:02 PM
#98
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Give it a rest, mate. You are arguing simply by questioning every statement I make, which is what women do.
NO! he is asking very good questions,hopefully other people will learn from it.
If you have a point to make, then make it. If you have info to add, add it, don't just ask the same question over and over.
I DO NOT TRUST the police OR the intelligence sevices, and nor should anyone.
BOTH have been shown to tell lies and to have an agenda, plus BOTH will do exactly what their paymasters tell them. Trust either at your peril.
NO! he is asking very good questions,hopefully other people will learn from it.
If you have a point to make, then make it. If you have info to add, add it, don't just ask the same question over and over.
I DO NOT TRUST the police OR the intelligence sevices, and nor should anyone.
BOTH have been shown to tell lies and to have an agenda, plus BOTH will do exactly what their paymasters tell them. Trust either at your peril.
Spell cheker were ar yu??
07 January 2011, 09:08 PM
#99
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I think THEY are a TINY,INSIGNIFICANT number of people.......I'm more worried about the massive number of white,non-religious ******* who I work with and live at the back of my housing estate.
07 January 2011, 09:15 PM
#101
THEY are the large number of Asians in MY town and many others across the North, North-West and North Midlands of this once proud country.
They DO refer to us as "the infidel", it means "unbeliever" and their q'ran tells them that we are lesser beings.
They WOULD like to see us ALL face down to Mecca twice daily. Their religion INSTRUCTS them to convert infidels.
In a recent poll, 40% of their youth said they would like to see Sharia Law in the UK.
That means women as second class citizens, among other things.They are ALREADY in the majority in Leicester. Several more English cities are slated to go majority Asian in the next five years.
YOU may not see this as a problem.
Best of luck.
07 January 2011, 09:36 PM
#103
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How sad for you.
THEY are the large number of Asians in MY town and many others across the North, North-West and North Midlands of this once proud country.
They DO refer to us as "the infidel", it means "unbeliever" and their q'ran tells them that we are lesser beings.
They WOULD like to see us ALL face down to Mecca twice daily. Their religion INSTRUCTS them to convert infidels.
In a recent poll, 40% of their youth said they would like to see Sharia Law in the UK. That means women as second class citizens, among other things.
They are ALREADY in the majority in Leicester. Several more English cities are slated to go majority Asian in the next five years.
YOU may not see this as a problem.
Best of luck.
THEY are the large number of Asians in MY town and many others across the North, North-West and North Midlands of this once proud country.
They DO refer to us as "the infidel", it means "unbeliever" and their q'ran tells them that we are lesser beings.
They WOULD like to see us ALL face down to Mecca twice daily. Their religion INSTRUCTS them to convert infidels.
In a recent poll, 40% of their youth said they would like to see Sharia Law in the UK.
That means women as second class citizens, among other things.They are ALREADY in the majority in Leicester. Several more English cities are slated to go majority Asian in the next five years.
YOU may not see this as a problem.
Best of luck.
I will still say its a tiny minority, AND it is other Muslims who are giving information to the police,you are doing them a disservice and insulting them.
I think you will find that the Bible (Christian Persuasion) Insists on Exactly the same thing (BUT IT IS DOWN TO INTERPRETATION) they (christians) do insist on cutting off the arm of "any women who strikes you". But I ain't worried bout that either. (do you want more extremist christian quotes?).
You will also find in the unwritten word of the average thug to stab you in the head for not handing over your wallet.Let mi see,the chance of dying from a thug on the streets OR the chance of being killed from a terrorist (Muslim or Irish). So where is YOUR check on reality.
As for a majority in Leicester etc,as usual that isn't MY problem thats societies.
so we're actually at Defcon 10
07 January 2011, 10:27 PM
#105
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So you refer to all ("They") Muslims as terrorists?
I will still say its a tiny minority, AND it is other Muslims who are giving information to the police,you are doing them a disservice and insulting them.
Ok how would you like us to refer to this tiny minority?I think you will find that the Bible (Christian Persuasion) Insists on Exactly the same thing (BUT IT IS DOWN TO INTERPRETATION) they (christians) do insist on cutting off the arm of "any women who strikes you". But I ain't worried bout that either. (do you want more extremist christian quotes?).
Your correct of course we do have extreme christians ! they are called johovahs witnesses.. (That was a joke by the way before some other clown decide's I'm racist.)
You will also find in the unwritten word of the average thug to stab you in the head for not handing over your wallet.Let mi see,the chance of dying from a thug on the streets OR the chance of being killed from a terrorist (Muslim or Irish). So where is YOUR check on reality.
As for a majority in Leicester etc,as usual that isn't MY problem thats societies.
I will still say its a tiny minority, AND it is other Muslims who are giving information to the police,you are doing them a disservice and insulting them.
Ok how would you like us to refer to this tiny minority?I think you will find that the Bible (Christian Persuasion) Insists on Exactly the same thing (BUT IT IS DOWN TO INTERPRETATION) they (christians) do insist on cutting off the arm of "any women who strikes you". But I ain't worried bout that either. (do you want more extremist christian quotes?).
Your correct of course we do have extreme christians ! they are called johovahs witnesses.. (That was a joke by the way before some other clown decide's I'm racist.)
You will also find in the unwritten word of the average thug to stab you in the head for not handing over your wallet.Let mi see,the chance of dying from a thug on the streets OR the chance of being killed from a terrorist (Muslim or Irish). So where is YOUR check on reality.
As for a majority in Leicester etc,as usual that isn't MY problem thats societies.
08 January 2011, 12:46 AM
#106
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The threat level has only been increased for Airports, Railway Stations etc. It must be the government trying to get us all off public transport and back into our cars
08 January 2011, 01:15 AM
#107
Just seen this on the news
http://news.uk.msn.com/articles.aspx...ntid=155781461
Now they cynic in me thinks, what new strategy or system do they want to implement now?
anyone else think the same?
Mart
http://news.uk.msn.com/articles.aspx...ntid=155781461
Now they cynic in me thinks, what new strategy or system do they want to implement now?
anyone else think the same?
Mart
Are you intimating that the current incumbants of Whitehall etc. would deliberately suggest that there was a high threat to National Safety that would result in the Vox Pop infering a real threat - And therefore divert attention from the issues of National Debt etc?
Shame on you
08 January 2011, 08:36 AM
#108
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Give it a rest, mate. You are arguing simply by questioning every statement I make, which is what women do.
If you have a point to make, then make it. If you have info to add, add it, don't just ask the same question over and over.
I DO NOT TRUST the police OR the intelligence sevices, and nor should anyone.
BOTH have been shown to tell lies and to have an agenda, plus BOTH will do exactly what their paymasters tell them. Trust either at your peril.
If you have a point to make, then make it. If you have info to add, add it, don't just ask the same question over and over.
I DO NOT TRUST the police OR the intelligence sevices, and nor should anyone.
BOTH have been shown to tell lies and to have an agenda, plus BOTH will do exactly what their paymasters tell them. Trust either at your peril.
08 January 2011, 08:38 AM
#109
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08 January 2011, 09:06 AM
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Can you please learn to use the quote function properly!?
Capitalism just is, it spreads because it works...it's not really ideologically driven more like it's demanded by economic realities. Nobody invented Capitalism it just came into being out of necessity as as the means of production became mobile and liquid requiring a Capitalist class to manage it (as oppose to an agricultural economy where land is fixed and inherited etc).. To oppose Capitalism is to want to concentrate and use state power as an alternative/defense...a really weak alternative which has been proven to fail over and over. In reality you just get populist elites playing a campaign of lefty rhetoric like in Venezuala running the show. At least Capitalism is open to all and disseminates power unlike state socialism which concentrates power.
The Islamists are otoh ideologically driven.
Sure but you are trying to correlate Islamic disillusionment with 'western interference'.
Western need for oil isn't necessarily against the interests of the middle east people. At least it provides an income and a means to start a modern economy. The Soviets or ***** would have stolen the oil, otoh the 'west' has always been about markets and free trade.
I don't believe they 'put' Saddam in charge but I'm sure they enabled him, but again what is the alternative. To provide economic/political stability to the region the west must back strongmen or have boots on the ground? You don't want the latter right? That would be an 'occupation'. The alternative to having no law and order is no stability and a blood bath/war etc. The middle east would have been in anarchy.
They oppress themselves by trying to opt out of the Capitalist, globalised market. That way lies poverty. Neither isolationism or state socialism work.
Capitalism is the only way.
What benefits the west benefits the Arab world by and large. Free trade benefits all remember. Basis economics. We have a mutual interdependence. What better way to stop conflict!?
Using state power to 'defend' against a 'culture' is a sign that the local culture is weak. Strong culture doesn't need laws to protect it.
Not sure what you mean.
The Islamists are otoh ideologically driven.
I have said before, obtaining peace in the middle east is very difficult,the numerous tribes wont allow a "democracy" but the west has rarely taken the local populations interest into account,mainly taking advantage satisfying their own needs for oil,of course this is only a recent arguement this does not explain Muslim behaviour from umpteen+ years ago.How far do you want to go back??? (The killing of BRITISH soilders by Israelies (try googling that one))
Sorry bud,cant be arsed lookin up that supremacist statement,put it in laymans terms.BTW. It wasn't "leftists" that started this war,Correct???
Sorry bud,cant be arsed lookin up that supremacist statement,put it in laymans terms.BTW. It wasn't "leftists" that started this war,Correct???
Capitalism is the only way.
Using state power to 'defend' against a 'culture' is a sign that the local culture is weak. Strong culture doesn't need laws to protect it.
Not sure what you mean.
Last edited by tony de wonderful; 08 January 2011 at 09:09 AM.
08 January 2011, 02:15 PM
#111
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You should remember that I had a great deal to do with the intelligence services in my previous job so it is unfair to infer that I am naive in these matters.
Les
08 January 2011, 05:25 PM
#113
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08 January 2011, 05:28 PM
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Hasn't it always been like this Zip? Just to varying degrees IMO. Why can't people have a sensible debate about stuff, agree to disagree, throw in a bit of banter etc etc.
08 January 2011, 05:36 PM
#116
sad acts in my view trying to lead thier lives by a book writen thousands of years ago that bears no relavance to todays modern society abd way of life
a classic example the witnesses not having blood transfusions because the book states (thou shaLT NOT Take blood ) durr you dumb asses he ment drink it not have it put in your arm cos you are dying. stupid the bloody lot of em
a classic example the witnesses not having blood transfusions because the book states (thou shaLT NOT Take blood ) durr you dumb asses he ment drink it not have it put in your arm cos you are dying. stupid the bloody lot of em
08 January 2011, 05:48 PM
#117
You may well be right in some circumstances, but they have demonstrated their ability to foil possible attacks through good intelligence and we have only that to rely on to save us from possible terrorist attack. We are not in a position to ignore the possible threat.
You should remember that I had a great deal to do with the intelligence services in my previous job so it is unfair to infer that I am naive in these matters.
Les
You should remember that I had a great deal to do with the intelligence services in my previous job so it is unfair to infer that I am naive in these matters.
Les
09 January 2011, 12:34 PM
#118
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I suppose it depends if they get caught before or after an offence. Also how long it takes to assemble any proof. If there is none then they have to be released. Lot of variables but a possible bad ending.
Les
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