Judaism
18 January 2011, 09:21 PM
#151
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@ thesyn.
On which side of the house, or both and what would constitute an 'original' position?
FWIW the roots of the 'conflict' stem back to around the 2nd millenia BCE. After 10 years of observation I cannot, with clear conscience, find an unequivocal position. Grey, grey and more grey.
On which side of the house, or both and what would constitute an 'original' position?
FWIW the roots of the 'conflict' stem back to around the 2nd millenia BCE. After 10 years of observation I cannot, with clear conscience, find an unequivocal position. Grey, grey and more grey.
Is it not hubris to think that it is our job to arbitrate the moral rights and wrongs?
18 January 2011, 09:41 PM
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you may not be able to understand the difference, but their is one
18 January 2011, 11:03 PM
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18 January 2011, 11:04 PM
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18 January 2011, 11:08 PM
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19 January 2011, 08:17 AM
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19 January 2011, 10:58 AM
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No true liberal democracies in the Arab world and certainly not in 1948! There had been pogroms right through the Islamic world. That and the Holocaust proved that Jewish people cannot guarantee their freedom except with a Jewish state. Why should they have faith in the Arabs to protect their freedom after the pogroms?
Is not religion a reason why 'Islam' (and the Palestinians as their proxies) should 'have' Jerusalem?
Is not religion a reason why 'Islam' (and the Palestinians as their proxies) should 'have' Jerusalem?
Geezer
19 January 2011, 12:59 PM
#162
It is all very well to say that Jews can live safely in in Europe etc. but you may have had trouble explaining that to Jews in the events leading up to the founding of Israel.
I wonder how many people are aware of the expulsion of Jews from England in 1290 by an edict that was not overturned for over 300 years? For some reason this is not widely taught in schools.
I come from Australia, a land that was basically stolen from the indigenous population by white Europeans.
The same thing has happened throughout the whole of the Americas and less successfully in Africa.
My forebears did not go there because of persecution/pogroms/ethnic cleansing/genocide etc. or because they didn't have a country of their own. They went there and stole he land for purely economic reasons - they just wanted the f*ckin real estate - it was good business.
I am sure that even the most biased muesli munching Grauniad reader would have to agree, that Jewish history presents a better requirement for taking land from someone (and that is exactly what has gone on here), than those of my forebears.
I have declined from commenting on this thread and will decline from further comment on it, because it generally seems to be the product two peculiarly British traits - Ignorance and self righteous indignation.
Keep it up SNetters
19 January 2011, 01:15 PM
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I hardly think that en edict in 1290 has any relevance now (or indeed in the 20th Century).
Sure there has been anti-semitism in most places at some point, but that still does not justify the setting up of a Jewish state. There's been plenty of persecution of all races/religions throughout history, but Judaism is the only one that has managed to wangle it's own state....
OK, Pakistan was created out of India, but it's not the same as that was one country already, not because Muslim equivalent of Zionism demanded it. It was to stop a slaughter in one area for a particular problem.
Admittedly, it is becoming more like an Israel for Muslims though
Geezer
Sure there has been anti-semitism in most places at some point, but that still does not justify the setting up of a Jewish state. There's been plenty of persecution of all races/religions throughout history, but Judaism is the only one that has managed to wangle it's own state....
OK, Pakistan was created out of India, but it's not the same as that was one country already, not because Muslim equivalent of Zionism demanded it. It was to stop a slaughter in one area for a particular problem.
Admittedly, it is becoming more like an Israel for Muslims though
Geezer
19 January 2011, 01:16 PM
#164
Pakistan is an exception to that.
It is all very well to say that Jews can live safely in in Europe etc. but you may have had trouble explaining that to Jews in the events leading up to the founding of Israel.
I wonder how many people are aware of the expulsion of Jews from England in 1290 by an edict that was not overturned for over 300 years? For some reason this is not widely taught in schools.
I come from Australia, a land that was basically stolen from the indigenous population by white Europeans.
The same thing has happened throughout the whole of the Americas and less successfully in Africa.
My forebears did not go there because of persecution/pogroms/ethnic cleansing/genocide etc. or because they didn't have a country of their own. They went there and stole he land for purely economic reasons - they just wanted the f*ckin real estate - it was good business.
I am sure that even the most biased muesli munching Grauniad reader would have to agree, that Jewish history presents a better requirement for taking land from someone (and that is exactly what has gone on here), than those of my forebears.
I have declined from commenting on this thread and will decline from further comment on it, because it generally seems to be the product two peculiarly British traits - Ignorance and self righteous indignation.
Keep it up SNetters
It is all very well to say that Jews can live safely in in Europe etc. but you may have had trouble explaining that to Jews in the events leading up to the founding of Israel.
I wonder how many people are aware of the expulsion of Jews from England in 1290 by an edict that was not overturned for over 300 years? For some reason this is not widely taught in schools.
I come from Australia, a land that was basically stolen from the indigenous population by white Europeans.
The same thing has happened throughout the whole of the Americas and less successfully in Africa.
My forebears did not go there because of persecution/pogroms/ethnic cleansing/genocide etc. or because they didn't have a country of their own. They went there and stole he land for purely economic reasons - they just wanted the f*ckin real estate - it was good business.
I am sure that even the most biased muesli munching Grauniad reader would have to agree, that Jewish history presents a better requirement for taking land from someone (and that is exactly what has gone on here), than those of my forebears.
I have declined from commenting on this thread and will decline from further comment on it, because it generally seems to be the product two peculiarly British traits - Ignorance and self righteous indignation.
Keep it up SNetters
19 January 2011, 04:36 PM
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Some Aboriginals hadn't even learn to use fire.
You can take this romantic view about a 'primitive utopia' but history happens. If it had not been euro settlers it would have been some other group. There is a historical pattern of primitive cultures being pushed aside by advanced ones throughout history.....it's about economics more then anything.
Another way to look at it is that the Aboriginals LOST the land.
Land is only yours in so far as you are able to defend it.
19 January 2011, 04:42 PM
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Private ownership is something else, and as far as I know the partition didn't just 'take' private land. Israel offered Arabs citizenship. It is an administrative question not 'ownership' as such.
Last edited by tony de wonderful; 19 January 2011 at 04:44 PM.
19 January 2011, 08:23 PM
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19 January 2011, 11:31 PM
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Judaism is a very old religion, to be respected and learnt about, IMO. I have a few Jewish friends, even been to a Jewish wedding.
Luckily it was only for the evening reception, so I missed the bit where they all stand up and give a toast to the State of Israel! Good thing as my non participation in that bit might have caused a stir!
And this is the problem - Zionism.
In my mind, there is a clear distinction between Judaism and Zionism. Judaism is an ancient religion, Zionism is a modern political movement. A movement that uses and manipulates religion, religious belief, and religious people, to further its own ends. Those being (like ALL other religion based, political movements) to further itself, grow more powerful, and to be greedy!
Zionism is very successful however, as having achieved so many of its aims. It has always however needed to defend itself. You were never going to be able to grab somone elses land and not cause a problem or two.
This alone, as a basic premise of the movement, makes it evil in my mind. In other words, from its early days, the people in charge always knew what they would have to do, to create a State of Israel, through force of arms. This is so against Jewish teachings, why any right thinking Jew would agree with it is beyond me. As you can imagine, my Jewish friends are completely embarrassed by what Israel does in the name of 'freedom' and so on.
Completely devoid of morals, which it claims to have, a view of themselves as 'The chosen ones', with the Worlds most powerful nation emotionally blackmailed into apologising and unquestioningly supporting it, while also armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons, the means for which they stole from guess who?
Anyway, why people are scared to tell the truth, I don't know? In my mind, it is the biggest threat to World peace and solely responsible for the problems in the Middle East. Responsible for all the conflicts, the tension, the issues which affect us here, in the West. However, managed to do such a good PR campaign, they have managed to blame others for the problems they have caused.
Funny that, a bit like how the Zionist sympathisers on this thread answer questions about Israel by attacking Islam?? How does that work?
Luckily it was only for the evening reception, so I missed the bit where they all stand up and give a toast to the State of Israel! Good thing as my non participation in that bit might have caused a stir!
And this is the problem - Zionism.
In my mind, there is a clear distinction between Judaism and Zionism. Judaism is an ancient religion, Zionism is a modern political movement. A movement that uses and manipulates religion, religious belief, and religious people, to further its own ends. Those being (like ALL other religion based, political movements) to further itself, grow more powerful, and to be greedy!
Zionism is very successful however, as having achieved so many of its aims. It has always however needed to defend itself. You were never going to be able to grab somone elses land and not cause a problem or two.
This alone, as a basic premise of the movement, makes it evil in my mind. In other words, from its early days, the people in charge always knew what they would have to do, to create a State of Israel, through force of arms. This is so against Jewish teachings, why any right thinking Jew would agree with it is beyond me. As you can imagine, my Jewish friends are completely embarrassed by what Israel does in the name of 'freedom' and so on.
Completely devoid of morals, which it claims to have, a view of themselves as 'The chosen ones', with the Worlds most powerful nation emotionally blackmailed into apologising and unquestioningly supporting it, while also armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons, the means for which they stole from guess who?
Anyway, why people are scared to tell the truth, I don't know? In my mind, it is the biggest threat to World peace and solely responsible for the problems in the Middle East. Responsible for all the conflicts, the tension, the issues which affect us here, in the West. However, managed to do such a good PR campaign, they have managed to blame others for the problems they have caused.
Funny that, a bit like how the Zionist sympathisers on this thread answer questions about Israel by attacking Islam?? How does that work?
19 January 2011, 11:51 PM
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Evening, Asif.
No angle here, but have you considered the Zionists' position from a Biblical perspective? One's assuming that there's an underlyng faith in the supernatural, the Word as spoken in the Torah.
No angle here, but have you considered the Zionists' position from a Biblical perspective? One's assuming that there's an underlyng faith in the supernatural, the Word as spoken in the Torah.
Judaism is a very old religion, to be respected and learnt about, IMO. I have a few Jewish friends, even been to a Jewish wedding.
Luckily it was only for the evening reception, so I missed the bit where they all stand up and give a toast to the State of Israel! Good thing as my non participation in that bit might have caused a stir!
And this is the problem - Zionism.
In my mind, there is a clear distinction between Judaism and Zionism. Judaism is an ancient religion, Zionism is a modern political movement. A movement that uses and manipulates religion, religious belief, and religious people, to further its own ends. Those being (like ALL other religion based, political movements) to further itself, grow more powerful, and to be greedy!
Zionism is very successful however, as having achieved so many of its aims. It has always however needed to defend itself. You were never going to be able to grab somone elses land and not cause a problem or two.
This alone, as a basic premise of the movement, makes it evil in my mind. In other words, from its early days, the people in charge always knew what they would have to do, to create a State of Israel, through force of arms. This is so against Jewish teachings, why any right thinking Jew would agree with it is beyond me. As you can imagine, my Jewish friends are completely embarrassed by what Israel does in the name of 'freedom' and so on.
Completely devoid of morals, which it claims to have, a view of themselves as 'The chosen ones', with the Worlds most powerful nation emotionally blackmailed into apologising and unquestioningly supporting it, while also armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons, the means for which they stole from guess who?
Anyway, why people are scared to tell the truth, I don't know? In my mind, it is the biggest threat to World peace and solely responsible for the problems in the Middle East. Responsible for all the conflicts, the tension, the issues which affect us here, in the West. However, managed to do such a good PR campaign, they have managed to blame others for the problems they have caused.
Funny that, a bit like how the Zionist sympathisers on this thread answer questions about Israel by attacking Islam?? How does that work?
Luckily it was only for the evening reception, so I missed the bit where they all stand up and give a toast to the State of Israel! Good thing as my non participation in that bit might have caused a stir!
And this is the problem - Zionism.
In my mind, there is a clear distinction between Judaism and Zionism. Judaism is an ancient religion, Zionism is a modern political movement. A movement that uses and manipulates religion, religious belief, and religious people, to further its own ends. Those being (like ALL other religion based, political movements) to further itself, grow more powerful, and to be greedy!
Zionism is very successful however, as having achieved so many of its aims. It has always however needed to defend itself. You were never going to be able to grab somone elses land and not cause a problem or two.
This alone, as a basic premise of the movement, makes it evil in my mind. In other words, from its early days, the people in charge always knew what they would have to do, to create a State of Israel, through force of arms. This is so against Jewish teachings, why any right thinking Jew would agree with it is beyond me. As you can imagine, my Jewish friends are completely embarrassed by what Israel does in the name of 'freedom' and so on.
Completely devoid of morals, which it claims to have, a view of themselves as 'The chosen ones', with the Worlds most powerful nation emotionally blackmailed into apologising and unquestioningly supporting it, while also armed to the teeth with nuclear weapons, the means for which they stole from guess who?
Anyway, why people are scared to tell the truth, I don't know? In my mind, it is the biggest threat to World peace and solely responsible for the problems in the Middle East. Responsible for all the conflicts, the tension, the issues which affect us here, in the West. However, managed to do such a good PR campaign, they have managed to blame others for the problems they have caused.
Funny that, a bit like how the Zionist sympathisers on this thread answer questions about Israel by attacking Islam?? How does that work?
19 January 2011, 11:52 PM
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Anyway, why people are scared to tell the truth, I don't know? In my mind, it is the biggest threat to World peace and solely responsible for the problems in the Middle East. Responsible for all the conflicts, the tension, the issues which affect us here, in the West. However, managed to do such a good PR campaign, they have managed to blame others for the problems they have caused.
You are scapegoating but don't know it. Demonising Israel.
How can they be responsible for middle east problem and tensions. An Iraqi shoots a fellow Iraqi and say 'Oh it was Israels' fault. Absurd.
Israel hasn't caused overpopulation and economic underdevelopment in most Islamic countries which is driving conflict.
20 January 2011, 12:01 AM
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I didn't mean that they had no religion, to be honest I don't know that, only they do.
If I were to speculate however, I am sure they feel that there is a religious justification for what they are doing, but I honestly think, the political power they crave is a far stronger draw.
What 'religion' they might have, guides some of their everyday actions, such as what they eat, how they might dress and so on. Hardcore Zionists are essentially extreme nationalists IMO and act accordingly.
Asif