500bhp Build
22 February 2011, 06:50 PM
#91
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
chunkb's post 2nd pic down 
Ultimately it comes down to how deep your pockets are, and for the majorrity it would be hard to stretch to the expense of an RCM build regardless of quality.
As what would be the point of a having a awesome build but being in a shedload of debt?
22 February 2011, 07:32 PM
#92
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,258
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The biggest problem of the tuning/big power/fast car interest we all share, is money.
If we were all into (lets say) fishing, we would all buy the best rod & equipment we can afford. The difference being after 5-10 years all the fishing rods would still be complete and owned by the buyers !.
I could write a long list here, of names and amounts spent on building big power Impreza's. If I were then to put a tick beside all the guys that still own the car, you would be shocked. If I then listed the amounts of money that were wasted you would call me a liar.
When guys spend BIG money they keep quiet about it, other than a small circle of friends.
If we were all into (lets say) fishing, we would all buy the best rod & equipment we can afford. The difference being after 5-10 years all the fishing rods would still be complete and owned by the buyers !.
I could write a long list here, of names and amounts spent on building big power Impreza's. If I were then to put a tick beside all the guys that still own the car, you would be shocked. If I then listed the amounts of money that were wasted you would call me a liar.
When guys spend BIG money they keep quiet about it, other than a small circle of friends.
Last edited by SkullFudge; 22 February 2011 at 07:34 PM.
22 February 2011, 08:07 PM
#94
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: MK
Posts: 4,931
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have spent the last year planning my WRX project; honest reliable advice is the most important factor when picking which company to use it can save you a lot of money in the long run.
Another RCM Picture poser
Another RCM Picture poser
22 February 2011, 08:26 PM
#99
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Sunny BELFAST
Posts: 19,408
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know how much I have spent with my 4 upgraded engines. My mechanic always manages to sell my bits on to other enthusiasts to cut down on the cost but it's still a staggering amount of money. I don't quite believe it myself sometimes. Skull fudge is right, don't talk much about how much we have spent for fear of being called liars or being branded a niave.
22 February 2011, 08:46 PM
#100
Brand new 2.5 short engine with all the forged parts etc, helix twin plate clutch, FPR, lightweight pulleys, cosworth oil control baffle plate, manifold spacers, kevlar belt, uprated oil pump, ARP headstuds etc, all built and fitted - around £9k.
I had already bought and had fitted second hand induction stuff (samco, RCM 80mm inlet and K&N) for about £200.
I needed new heads as mine were cracked - £1100 for a pair of 1000 mile old AVCS '05 Spec C heads imported from Japan.
£1000 on lateral twinscroll headers, including ceramic coating them and the milltek downpipe I already had. That was a waste of money as they didn't perform well enough (wrong pipe diameters for a 2.5) so having sold my oem twinscroll headers I then had to buy another set. The milltek downpipe later cracked around the turbo flange so I had to have them repaired, and lost most of the ceramic coating. More recently I had the oem headers cleaned up and wrapped (£120). This was probably the major thing I did wrong - but, to defend myself, the original plan was for 400-450bhp and to try and retain the TMIC, hence the ceramic coating etc.
I then spent £1100 on importing an APS DR725 from the US - I probably could have got away with a Hybrid for much less.
Then came the turbo and new injectors, plus FMIC fitting and a remap - £4k.
Then the ecu proved to be not up to the task, so a Syvecs was fitted. The price of that is well known, although I got a good deal
More recently it cost me £3,500 to have the block and heads skimmed after the headgaskets went, and then rebuilt with 14mm headstuds, Cosworth headgaskets etc. And I took the opportunity to have the turbo brought up to current spec by Iain Litchfield for around £500.
There were some other costs as well, but they were optional - for example replacing the scoop with a louvre grill, and replacing the STi wing with a Spec D lip spoiler...but most of those were cash neutral as I sold the original parts to recoup the cost. Likewise, I sold the VF36, STi pinks etc.
Bottom line, all in, this venture has cost me about £22k so far
I had already bought and had fitted second hand induction stuff (samco, RCM 80mm inlet and K&N) for about £200.
I needed new heads as mine were cracked - £1100 for a pair of 1000 mile old AVCS '05 Spec C heads imported from Japan.
£1000 on lateral twinscroll headers, including ceramic coating them and the milltek downpipe I already had. That was a waste of money as they didn't perform well enough (wrong pipe diameters for a 2.5) so having sold my oem twinscroll headers I then had to buy another set. The milltek downpipe later cracked around the turbo flange so I had to have them repaired, and lost most of the ceramic coating. More recently I had the oem headers cleaned up and wrapped (£120). This was probably the major thing I did wrong - but, to defend myself, the original plan was for 400-450bhp and to try and retain the TMIC, hence the ceramic coating etc.
I then spent £1100 on importing an APS DR725 from the US - I probably could have got away with a Hybrid for much less.
Then came the turbo and new injectors, plus FMIC fitting and a remap - £4k.
Then the ecu proved to be not up to the task, so a Syvecs was fitted. The price of that is well known, although I got a good deal
More recently it cost me £3,500 to have the block and heads skimmed after the headgaskets went, and then rebuilt with 14mm headstuds, Cosworth headgaskets etc. And I took the opportunity to have the turbo brought up to current spec by Iain Litchfield for around £500.
There were some other costs as well, but they were optional - for example replacing the scoop with a louvre grill, and replacing the STi wing with a Spec D lip spoiler...but most of those were cash neutral as I sold the original parts to recoup the cost. Likewise, I sold the VF36, STi pinks etc.
Bottom line, all in, this venture has cost me about £22k so far
22 February 2011, 09:01 PM
#101
From the prices I know, and your statements above Tim, I would have guessed a couple of grand lower but still in the same ball park.
As you say, some of that you recovered by selling on parts, and it seems a bit was down to wear and tear / bad luck.
A simple rebuild of my classic wagon motor at APi started at £2100 then went up and up as I went for forged pistons, rods, STi4 heads/cams etc. and soon cost well over £4000. Nothing fancy like Sti9 cranks or rear thrust bearing mods. That's before I added 20G turbo, 800 cc/min injectors, 3" exhaust, new tubular headers ceramic coated, clutch, PPG gearset & front Quaife LSD ... remap, so arounf £11000 - £12000 for a safe reliable 380 bhp/360 lb ft daily driver wagon.
Gulp!!
Someone got a bargain when I sold it to get a hatch Sti!!
As you say, some of that you recovered by selling on parts, and it seems a bit was down to wear and tear / bad luck.
A simple rebuild of my classic wagon motor at APi started at £2100 then went up and up as I went for forged pistons, rods, STi4 heads/cams etc. and soon cost well over £4000. Nothing fancy like Sti9 cranks or rear thrust bearing mods. That's before I added 20G turbo, 800 cc/min injectors, 3" exhaust, new tubular headers ceramic coated, clutch, PPG gearset & front Quaife LSD ... remap, so arounf £11000 - £12000 for a safe reliable 380 bhp/360 lb ft daily driver wagon.
Gulp!!
Someone got a bargain when I sold it to get a hatch Sti!!
22 February 2011, 09:04 PM
#102
Brand new 2.5 short engine with all the forged parts etc, helix twin plate clutch, FPR, lightweight pulleys, cosworth oil control baffle plate, manifold spacers, kevlar belt, uprated oil pump, ARP headstuds etc, all built and fitted - around £9k.
I had already bought and had fitted second hand induction stuff (samco, RCM 80mm inlet and K&N) for about £200.
I needed new heads as mine were cracked - £1100 for a pair of 1000 mile old AVCS '05 Spec C heads imported from Japan.
£1000 on lateral twinscroll headers, including ceramic coating them and the milltek downpipe I already had. That was a waste of money as they didn't perform well enough (wrong pipe diameters for a 2.5) so having sold my oem twinscroll headers I then had to buy another set. The milltek downpipe later cracked around the turbo flange so I had to have them repaired, and lost most of the ceramic coating. More recently I had the oem headers cleaned up and wrapped (£120). This was probably the major thing I did wrong - but, to defend myself, the original plan was for 400-450bhp and to try and retain the TMIC, hence the ceramic coating etc.
I then spent £1100 on importing an APS DR725 from the US - I probably could have got away with a Hybrid for much less.
Then came the turbo and new injectors, plus FMIC fitting and a remap - £4k.
Then the ecu proved to be not up to the task, so a Syvecs was fitted. The price of that is well known, although I got a good deal
More recently it cost me £3,500 to have the block and heads skimmed after the headgaskets went, and then rebuilt with 14mm headstuds, Cosworth headgaskets etc. And I took the opportunity to have the turbo brought up to current spec by Iain Litchfield for around £500.
There were some other costs as well, but they were optional - for example replacing the scoop with a louvre grill, and replacing the STi wing with a Spec D lip spoiler...but most of those were cash neutral as I sold the original parts to recoup the cost. Likewise, I sold the VF36, STi pinks etc.
Bottom line, all in, this venture has cost me about £22k so far
I had already bought and had fitted second hand induction stuff (samco, RCM 80mm inlet and K&N) for about £200.
I needed new heads as mine were cracked - £1100 for a pair of 1000 mile old AVCS '05 Spec C heads imported from Japan.
£1000 on lateral twinscroll headers, including ceramic coating them and the milltek downpipe I already had. That was a waste of money as they didn't perform well enough (wrong pipe diameters for a 2.5) so having sold my oem twinscroll headers I then had to buy another set. The milltek downpipe later cracked around the turbo flange so I had to have them repaired, and lost most of the ceramic coating. More recently I had the oem headers cleaned up and wrapped (£120). This was probably the major thing I did wrong - but, to defend myself, the original plan was for 400-450bhp and to try and retain the TMIC, hence the ceramic coating etc.
I then spent £1100 on importing an APS DR725 from the US - I probably could have got away with a Hybrid for much less.
Then came the turbo and new injectors, plus FMIC fitting and a remap - £4k.
Then the ecu proved to be not up to the task, so a Syvecs was fitted. The price of that is well known, although I got a good deal
More recently it cost me £3,500 to have the block and heads skimmed after the headgaskets went, and then rebuilt with 14mm headstuds, Cosworth headgaskets etc. And I took the opportunity to have the turbo brought up to current spec by Iain Litchfield for around £500.
There were some other costs as well, but they were optional - for example replacing the scoop with a louvre grill, and replacing the STi wing with a Spec D lip spoiler...but most of those were cash neutral as I sold the original parts to recoup the cost. Likewise, I sold the VF36, STi pinks etc.
Bottom line, all in, this venture has cost me about £22k so far
Fair play though,good result in the end
22 February 2011, 09:32 PM
#104
Scooby Regular
I have also NEVER kept quiet about a)what ever went wrong on my engine build (and not a fat lot tbh ) or b)how much it would cost to do all the work I ever had done.
When I sold the car I totted it all up and it was well in excess of £50k in total from the day I bought it to the day I moved it on, which included buying the car for £20,500.00 in the first place.
I am of course talking about my Spec C and not my current JDM Hawkeye.... that has only had £5k+ worth of work since taking delivery of it in August 2010, so I am mearly "playing at it" currently.
In comparasion the current JDM is saving me money hand over fist! roflol
) or b)how much it would cost to do all the work I ever had done.When I sold the car I totted it all up and it was well in excess of £50k in total from the day I bought it to the day I moved it on, which included buying the car for £20,500.00 in the first place.
I am of course talking about my Spec C and not my current JDM Hawkeye.... that has only had £5k+ worth of work since taking delivery of it in August 2010, so I am mearly "playing at it" currently.
In comparasion the current JDM is saving me money hand over fist! roflol
22 February 2011, 10:25 PM
#105
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: May 2008
Location: not sure my mum just dropped me off here????
Posts: 1,323
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the reason RCM and Zen and others charge a premium is to cover the cost of all the hours of development that goes in to the parts they offer, i mean they don't just dream these parts up and bing they appear, it can take hours,days even weeks to get these parts right and while they are working on these bits they are not working on customers car basicly thier income, so the long and short of it they need to cover thier time and cost for producing top quality items
23 February 2011, 07:58 AM
#107
Scooby Regular
I think the reason RCM and Zen and others charge a premium is to cover the cost of all the hours of development that goes in to the parts they offer, i mean they don't just dream these parts up and bing they appear, it can take hours,days even weeks to get these parts right and while they are working on these bits they are not working on customers car basicly thier income, so the long and short of it they need to cover thier time and cost for producing top quality items
but the parts rcm are mega expensive on the most, like £800 for a fuel pump.
F1 CJE UK if yu dont mind give us a rough ball park of what you spent to get it built and what the final power figures on the build have ended up.
23 February 2011, 09:21 AM
#108
There are loads of companies offering good deals out there at the mo especially being as 450-500 is the norm at the mo and within a lot of peoples budgets........As posted previously shop around and see what suits you best.......its a competitive world out there and even though prices and V.A.T ETC going through the roof its still a buyers market being on the back end of a recession.
As for companies there are loads out there......even unheard of companies that are very good at thier jobs and priced well.......Big tuners can afford to charge what they do.......At the end of the day people are saying RCM are expensive which I'm not denying but being as they are as professional as they are and don't slag off other companies like LOTS I know do, whom then travel the forums and join other websites like the P1WOC just to say its someone else and not them......and its rare even you may n ot even hear of an RCM build blowing up........credit to them I say
I admit I have a big build (for track and not pub talk) and have used scoobyclinic........I opt to stay with them as I have formed a friendship with them and get looked after........I'm from south Wales and have to travel but am willing to do that.......I say the company you used last time if they were good then use them again and form that bond......will save you money in the future no doubt
Above 500 is where it starts to get expensive..........the only way to keep costs down is to build the engine yourself....
As for companies there are loads out there......even unheard of companies that are very good at thier jobs and priced well.......Big tuners can afford to charge what they do.......At the end of the day people are saying RCM are expensive which I'm not denying but being as they are as professional as they are and don't slag off other companies like LOTS I know do, whom then travel the forums and join other websites like the P1WOC just to say its someone else and not them......and its rare even you may n ot even hear of an RCM build blowing up........credit to them I say
I admit I have a big build (for track and not pub talk) and have used scoobyclinic........I opt to stay with them as I have formed a friendship with them and get looked after........I'm from south Wales and have to travel but am willing to do that.......I say the company you used last time if they were good then use them again and form that bond......will save you money in the future no doubt
Above 500 is where it starts to get expensive..........the only way to keep costs down is to build the engine yourself....
23 February 2011, 10:15 AM
#109
There is also another very significant cost to be factored in that has yet to be mentioned and that is the cost of supporting mods,everyone here is mostly talking about the engine build cost.
If you want to be able to drive a car that has this much power to anything like its true capability it's an absolute must to look at the suspension and braking as well as bushes and you'll have no problem spending circa 5k sorting that lot nevermind the 2k on engine ancillaries and thats also before a ecu and remap the list goes on and on.
IM sure many would agree a well sorted chassis with top spec brakes at around 450/450 is more than capable of out stripping the driving abilities of all but the most commited and tallented of drivers...
p.s and thats before anything breaks..
If you want to be able to drive a car that has this much power to anything like its true capability it's an absolute must to look at the suspension and braking as well as bushes and you'll have no problem spending circa 5k sorting that lot nevermind the 2k on engine ancillaries and thats also before a ecu and remap the list goes on and on.
IM sure many would agree a well sorted chassis with top spec brakes at around 450/450 is more than capable of out stripping the driving abilities of all but the most commited and tallented of drivers...
p.s and thats before anything breaks..
Last edited by ditchmyster; 23 February 2011 at 10:19 AM.
23 February 2011, 10:25 AM
#110
Moderator
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Terry Crews of moderation. P P P P P P POWER!!
Posts: 18,687
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are loads of companies offering good deals out there at the mo especially being as 450-500 is the norm at the mo and within a lot of peoples budgets........As posted previously shop around and see what suits you best.......its a competitive world out there and even though prices and V.A.T ETC going through the roof its still a buyers market being on the back end of a recession.
As for companies there are loads out there......even unheard of companies that are very good at thier jobs and priced well.......Big tuners can afford to charge what they do.......At the end of the day people are saying RCM are expensive which I'm not denying but being as they are as professional as they are and don't slag off other companies like LOTS I know do, whom then travel the forums and join other websites like the P1WOC just to say its someone else and not them......and its rare even you may n ot even hear of an RCM build blowing up........credit to them I say
I admit I have a big build (for track and not pub talk) and have used scoobyclinic........I opt to stay with them as I have formed a friendship with them and get looked after........I'm from south Wales and have to travel but am willing to do that.......I say the company you used last time if they were good then use them again and form that bond......will save you money in the future no doubt
Above 500 is where it starts to get expensive..........the only way to keep costs down is to build the engine yourself....
As for companies there are loads out there......even unheard of companies that are very good at thier jobs and priced well.......Big tuners can afford to charge what they do.......At the end of the day people are saying RCM are expensive which I'm not denying but being as they are as professional as they are and don't slag off other companies like LOTS I know do, whom then travel the forums and join other websites like the P1WOC just to say its someone else and not them......and its rare even you may n ot even hear of an RCM build blowing up........credit to them I say
I admit I have a big build (for track and not pub talk) and have used scoobyclinic........I opt to stay with them as I have formed a friendship with them and get looked after........I'm from south Wales and have to travel but am willing to do that.......I say the company you used last time if they were good then use them again and form that bond......will save you money in the future no doubt
Above 500 is where it starts to get expensive..........the only way to keep costs down is to build the engine yourself....
I've just spent a 5 figure sum getting a hawk up to a reliable 450/450 configuration (in fact the mods were only a few grand cheaper than the car lol). To my mind that's expensive.
As I said before, it's all well and good saying I want 500/550/600 etc but most people have not even the vaguest idea of what a car with 400bhp+ is like and what getting to the mid 400s reliably involves even on STi spec cars!
The problem with building stuff yourself is that there is no warranty if something goes wrong and and if you bend expensive engine parts, you've just blown whatever saving you might have made by getting the thing put together properly the first time.
I've learned one thing in 6+ years of high performance car ownership: there is never a cheap way, you always pay......sooner or later!
23 February 2011, 10:51 AM
#111
Scooby Regular
Depends what you define as expensive really.
I've just spent a 5 figure sum getting a hawk up to a reliable 450/450 configuration (in fact the mods were only a few grand cheaper than the car lol). To my mind that's expensive.
As I said before, it's all well and good saying I want 500/550/600 etc but most people have not even the vaguest idea of what a car with 400bhp+ is like and what getting to the mid 400s reliably involves even on STi spec cars!
The problem with building stuff yourself is that there is no warranty if something goes wrong and and if you bend expensive engine parts, you've just blown whatever saving you might have made by getting the thing put together properly the first time.
I've learned one thing in 6+ years of high performance car ownership: there is never a cheap way, you always pay......sooner or later!
I've just spent a 5 figure sum getting a hawk up to a reliable 450/450 configuration (in fact the mods were only a few grand cheaper than the car lol). To my mind that's expensive.
As I said before, it's all well and good saying I want 500/550/600 etc but most people have not even the vaguest idea of what a car with 400bhp+ is like and what getting to the mid 400s reliably involves even on STi spec cars!
The problem with building stuff yourself is that there is no warranty if something goes wrong and and if you bend expensive engine parts, you've just blown whatever saving you might have made by getting the thing put together properly the first time.
I've learned one thing in 6+ years of high performance car ownership: there is never a cheap way, you always pay......sooner or later!
lol
23 February 2011, 11:01 AM
#113
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Essex
Posts: 434
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
23 February 2011, 11:07 AM
#114
Moderator
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Terry Crews of moderation. P P P P P P POWER!!
Posts: 18,687
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No you don't; you forgot to add the VAT! Hey presto, even the clinic (renowned for cracking labour rates) can't do it for you for under 5 figures.
Oh, and I have a few "nice to have things" that aren't included in that package!
Hey presto, even the clinic (renowned for cracking labour rates) can't do it for you for under 5 figures.Oh, and I have a few "nice to have things" that aren't included in that package!
Last edited by New_scooby_04; 23 February 2011 at 11:10 AM.
23 February 2011, 11:14 AM
#116
Moderator
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Terry Crews of moderation. P P P P P P POWER!!
Posts: 18,687
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Goes something like this:
Customer x bounds in and says: "I want 550bhp"
Richard says "come out for a ride in mine"
Customer goes out for a ride and beams: "YES! Exactly what I want"
Richards says: "well this car only has 420bhp"
Customer: "oh!"
The customer was happy with 420 but thought they wanted 550..... BIG cost difference between achieving these two outputs reliably!
23 February 2011, 11:23 AM
#119
agree with you ditchmyster.......and also gearbox, clutch etc etc.......it all adds up........
true a lot of people may not have a clue what it takes for 450/450 and many will not know how fast it is on the street......and its not to bad on track either
as for warranties..........does a tuner give them out????............I've not met one who does warranties...........its one of the gambles that goes with tunning cars and why people go to RCM or scoobyclinic or other big names to get reliability
true a lot of people may not have a clue what it takes for 450/450 and many will not know how fast it is on the street......and its not to bad on track either
as for warranties..........does a tuner give them out????............I've not met one who does warranties...........its one of the gambles that goes with tunning cars and why people go to RCM or scoobyclinic or other big names to get reliability
