cster

The point of relevance is that whether a country is to the right or left has no bearing on the perceived righteousness of their foreign policy.
Put simply, they are all at it.

When you ask;
"So why do America and the UK come to that dress it up as being about the people, the good of the country etc. etc. when in fact it is all about the West's need for oil."

I question the balance of your views, for there is a clear implication that "America and the UK" are in some way special in this regard.
Why name them otherwise?
I mention the left wing countries specifically, as they of course believe there is a moral superiority to their system vis a vis capitalism, which lets face it, has no moral dimension per se.
The same sense of moral superiority seems to be a characteristic of lefties in general, who seem to take great umbrage with anyone who questions their sanctimonious opinion on all matter of subject. Self righteous indignation seems to be a frequent closing argument. (mind you, that could just be the effect I have on people)
I wouldn't put you in this category of course.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Er I can't beleive I am really having to type this, but I name them because they are the two prime nations involved in invading Iraq and Afgahanistan.

What left wing countries? Are there any left?

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

That's a joke, right?

JTaylor

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

I heard talks mentioning that rebels should be given arms by the West to help aid their revolution.

Either directly or indirectly that must never ever happen.

Remember; thats exactly how al-Qaeda were empowered...we (or the USA to be precise)created it, with arms sourced by the West to aid the Jihad in Afghanistan agianst the Russians.

Biggest mistake the USA ever made, and one the west continue to pay for.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Nope, China has a poor record as regards places like Tibet, but Ameica has invaded two countries illegally in the last 10 years (with our help I might add) and is probably about to poke its nose in to at least one or two more. Then there is China's woeful human rights record in return for which I give you Guantanamo which in many ways is worse as America more or less brags about it and so on and so on..... As I said how much worse can China be?

hodgy0_2

they are both avid proponents of the death penalty

in fact China, Iran, Iraq, Saudi and the States fill the top 5 places


which is nice

cster

Libya, China(?), Cuba and Venezuela spring to mind. Zimbabwe maybe.
You are quite correct to point out that this is a pretty-much defunct ideology - just don't tell that to an ideologue.
I am sorry you have had to take the trouble to type about "invading Iraq and Afghanistan".
It is just that this thread is about Libya and up until now, no one has alluded to "invading Iraq and Afghanistan".
Cheers for making the effort all the same.
I love your pearls.

cster

Very true - I must say that if Saudi is indeed up there, it must be doing very well on a per capita basis - but how long can they keep it up?

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Libya has no governement, just a dictatorship... or that should be 'had'.

Cuba and Venezuela - not exactly players on the World stage.

Zimbabwe - not really is it?

Which leaves China.... who need the West to sell their tat to so they are likely to become right wing pretty bloody quickly at least where it matters if not as regards their own people.

Sorry you didn't make the connection to Iraq/Afghanistan... glad we got it sorted though

GlesgaKiss

I'm sorry, but back to the real world... and where would you rather live?

Sure, you could say that I'm only thinking like that because I hold the values from western countries... western ideals. But on the other hand someone can't possibly argue that people in totalitarian states enjoy the occasional injustice/beating/rape. And I'm pretty sure the people who live in China would rather criticise their government freely at times. Although they won't say that of course.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Gadaffi needs killing, simple as that, he is a nutcase prepared to kill his own people to hold onto his wealth and power, prepared to sanction the sdeaths of 300 or so people on a fully laden 747, I would cheerfully do it myself.

Leslie

It is down to his downtrodden people to sort him out, on a lampost if necessary.

Les

JTaylor

What if the opposition ask for NATO's help?

GlesgaKiss

http://www.sify.com/news/britain-int...ew4egbabd.html

Leslie

All they could do is to ask the UN and they would give the required answer.

What would you do in that situation if they asked you?

Les

David Lock

A problem in Libya is that it is hard to define who the opposition are. At the moment it's "any one who doesn't like Gaddafi" and there is no recognised opposition leader. Some of the protesters think it would be great if the West bombed Gaddafi's planes (but I doubt if they appreciate the reality of a no-fly zone) but most seem to say they can manage on their own thank you very much! The dead ones may have a different view of course.

dl

tony de wonderful

Guantanamo is ONE THING. It's a failing I admit and one the US is slowly rectifying - thus proving that a liberal democracy can self-correct (albeit painfully slowly). China otoh will at best put you under house arrest if you disagree with the government and at worse execute you or put you in a mental hospital. Get some perspective please.

tony de wonderful

I'm convinced him and his sons are delusional. They actually believe that they are loved and the bad guys are AQ.

It's a hallmark of insular political systems that this sort of flight from reality happens.

tony de wonderful

Yep it's a popular and spontaneous insurrection basically. I was saying this from day one despite Sky news etc talking of 'rebel armies' and 'opposition government' etc.

One thing in the rebels favor is that the longer this goes on the more likely Loyalist forces are to put down arms or turn on Gadaffi. Nothing is worse for a regular army from a moral POV that killing its own country men. These soldiers have to live perhaps in the communities where they may be killing next door neighbors, and as for mercenaries Gadaffi should read Machiavelli!

David Lock

And the second worse things for an army is perhaps not getting paid and if/when Gaddafi runs out of cash then the s,hit will hit the fan big time. dl

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Yes, its the "cult of personality" kicking in, like Saddam, Lenin etc etc, too long in power, too many yes men, too much money and the freedom to do what he wants, the oil money has kept the place going, he is a nutter and has proven it before but him and his family have courted the west like them befriending a dog that tends to bite people when under duress, he is prepared to kill his own, at sixty nine years of age to hang onto power, remember this is a man that sanctioned the destruction of a Pan Am 747 and the people on board to make a point, I am not a violent man but I would cheerfully put a bullet in his temple having read what people had to go through in Lockerbie and on that 747.

He needs to be taken down,

Leslie

Yes it is natural for such megalomaniacs to act in a delusional manner because they have no excuse to offer for their heinous behaviour. All they can do with the rest of the world is to effectively go into denial.

I really don't think they can truly and honestly believe that their countrymen love them in the face of such a revolution against their despotic rule.

Les

tony de wonderful

Anyone watching the Sky exclusive on Zawiya ATM?

Unbelievable what is going down, it's basically a civilian militia taking on the Gadaffi state. These are extremely brave people.

JTaylor

Watching it now.

GlesgaKiss

They sure are. They're basically sacrificing themselves for the cause and for the rest of their people. Hard to imagine when living in this country.

David Lock

I think they should parachute Prince Andrew in to sort it out

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

I don't have much time for journos, but this is some good reporting and they are way braver than I

tony de wonderful

Yeah the gun is the final means to take down a corrupt and tyrannical government.

Still I do worry this is just essentially a peasants revolt and thus doomed.

GlesgaKiss

The news on the side of the revolt does seem ever more pessimistic. What I'm wondering is how the UN etc are going to squirm out of this if Gaddafi does succeed in crushing the revolt. We're surely in a position now where we've pretty much totally alienated him, meaning that western countries may actually be forced to take action in the end... because what are relations going to be like if he brings things back to 'normal' in Libya under his rule?