Deja Vu (Libya)
20 March 2011, 02:38 PM
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20 March 2011, 02:49 PM
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Déjà Vu. The Russians and the Chinese veto'd punitive measures and, perhaps to appease the 'but it's illegal' crowd, the UK, France and the US honoured the outcome. So, on Iraq we were wrong because it was illegal and we took unilateral action and on Mugabe we were wrong because we didn't take unilateral action and on Libya we're wrong because we didn't take unilateral action against Robert Mugabe. Either acknowledge that this is an illogical position or explain why isn't but, please, please, don't keep posting the same circular, ill-considered proposition time and time again.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/...61L29O20100222
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4713961.stm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...rt-Mugabe.html
20 March 2011, 02:51 PM
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Déjà Vu. The Russians and the Chinese veto'd punitive measures and, perhaps to appease the 'but it's illegal' crowd, the UK, France and the US honoured the outcome. So, on Iraq we were wrong because it was illegal and we took unilateral action and on Mugabe we were wrong because we didn't take unilateral action and on Libya we're wrong because we didn't take unilateral action against Robert Mugabe. Either acknowledge that this is an illogical position or explain why isn't but, please, please, don't keep posting the same circular, ill-considered proposition time and time again.
I don't know what you mean by "proposition" and there is nothing ill-considered about my views.
As far as Mugabe is concerned the West had a moral duty to sort things out but the African Nations were against it because they viewed it as an attack "on their own" - because Mugabe is black and the West have no real strategic interest in Zimbabwe. Also China would have used their veto to protect their growing interest in Zimbabwe's resources.
Mugabe was responsible for far more deaths than have presently occurred in Libya but the country is strategically very important to the West. So it takes the decision to go in. Double standards from a moral standpoint but that doesn't really matter in pure political terms.
IMHO there are huge risks to the West taking the present action as it could open up a can of worms in the whole region.
You are fond of the phrase circular argument but I don't know what that means either. Nonetheless I shall continue to post my opinions. I do know quite a bit about Africa and am especially fond of Zimbabwe and its people but I have only limited experience of the Middle East.
dl
20 March 2011, 02:51 PM
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Growing pains. Take the UK, US and France. We had a civil war and then a revolution three hundred years ago, the US did it the other way round and the French stormed the Bastille 200 years ago. All nations hosted unimaginable attrocities, sectarian and 'tribal' violence and yet, here we are, enjoying universal suffrage.
Human beings crave (and have a right to) freedom and sometimes those who have it need to help those who don't.
Human beings crave (and have a right to) freedom and sometimes those who have it need to help those who don't.
20 March 2011, 03:00 PM
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Growing pains. Take the UK, US and France. We had a civil war and then a revolution three hundred years ago, the US did it the other way round and the French stormed the Bastille 200 years ago. All nations hosted unimaginable attrocities, sectarian and 'tribal' violence and yet, here we are, enjoying universal suffrage.
Human beings crave (and have a right to) freedom and sometimes those who have it need to help those who don't.
Human beings crave (and have a right to) freedom and sometimes those who have it need to help those who don't.
He's saying this:
If Iraq had gone to plan it would have been evidence of the West power.
If Iraq doesn't appear to go to plan, then this must have been the plan anyway, because the West always get's what it wants.
It's a type of irrational/fallacious thinking that is prevalent in the ME and Islamic world, where everyone sees themselves as impotent pawns whose fate is determined by Western-Jewish power/conspiracy which controls everything.
Sharks attacks in Egypt blamed on Mossad for example (I kid you not).
20 March 2011, 03:01 PM
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Mugabe is a mute point, he is now very much buddies with the Chinese who are now benefiting from the mineral wealth. Mugabe has Chinese troops in his country and we are unlikely to ever get involved for fear of confrontation with the Chinese.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/...61L29O20100222
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4713961.stm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...rt-Mugabe.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/...61L29O20100222
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4713961.stm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...rt-Mugabe.html
Thanks. Please see posts 99, 111 and 114.
20 March 2011, 03:23 PM
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Mugabe was responsible for far more deaths than have presently occurred in Libya but the country is strategically very important to the West. So it takes the decision to go in. Double standards from a moral standpoint but that doesn't really matter in pure political terms.
It's not a double moral standard. The West has made Mugabe a pariah, just one they chose not to remove with military force.
A true double standard would have been to endorse and support Mugabe in the face of evidence of his tyranny.
20 March 2011, 03:25 PM
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You do realise that my post above was on the other thread before it was moved and directed at the OP on that thread?
I don't know what you mean by "proposition" and there is nothing ill-considered about my views.
As far as Mugabe is concerned the West had a moral duty to sort things out but the African Nations were against it because they viewed it as an attack "on their own" - because Mugabe is black and the West have no real strategic interest in Zimbabwe. Also China would have used their veto to protect their growing interest in Zimbabwe's resources.
Mugabe was responsible for far more deaths than have presently occurred in Libya but the country is strategically very important to the West. So it takes the decision to go in. Double standards from a moral standpoint but that doesn't really matter in pure political terms.
IMHO there are huge risks to the West taking the present action as it could open up a can of worms in the whole region.
You are fond of the phrase circular argument but I don't know what that means either. Nonetheless I shall continue to post my opinions. I do know quite a bit about Africa and am especially fond of Zimbabwe and its people but I have only limited experience of the Middle East.
dl
I don't know what you mean by "proposition" and there is nothing ill-considered about my views.
As far as Mugabe is concerned the West had a moral duty to sort things out but the African Nations were against it because they viewed it as an attack "on their own" - because Mugabe is black and the West have no real strategic interest in Zimbabwe. Also China would have used their veto to protect their growing interest in Zimbabwe's resources.
Mugabe was responsible for far more deaths than have presently occurred in Libya but the country is strategically very important to the West. So it takes the decision to go in. Double standards from a moral standpoint but that doesn't really matter in pure political terms.
IMHO there are huge risks to the West taking the present action as it could open up a can of worms in the whole region.
You are fond of the phrase circular argument but I don't know what that means either. Nonetheless I shall continue to post my opinions. I do know quite a bit about Africa and am especially fond of Zimbabwe and its people but I have only limited experience of the Middle East.
dl
Last edited by JTaylor; 20 March 2011 at 03:30 PM.
20 March 2011, 03:29 PM
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20 March 2011, 03:44 PM
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I was trying to expose serega's conspiracy type thinking.
He's saying this:
If Iraq had gone to plan it would have been evidence of the West power.
If Iraq doesn't appear to go to plan, then this must have been the plan anyway, because the West always get's what it wants.
It's a type of irrational/fallacious thinking that is prevalent in the ME and Islamic world, where everyone sees themselves as impotent pawns whose fate is determined by Western-Jewish power/conspiracy which controls everything.
Sharks attacks in Egypt blamed on Mossad for example (I kid you not).
He's saying this:
If Iraq had gone to plan it would have been evidence of the West power.
If Iraq doesn't appear to go to plan, then this must have been the plan anyway, because the West always get's what it wants.
It's a type of irrational/fallacious thinking that is prevalent in the ME and Islamic world, where everyone sees themselves as impotent pawns whose fate is determined by Western-Jewish power/conspiracy which controls everything.
Sharks attacks in Egypt blamed on Mossad for example (I kid you not).
20 March 2011, 03:48 PM
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...you may have had a laugh but that is what you were saying. Seems ridiculous when it has a light shone on it though doesn't it?
20 March 2011, 03:58 PM
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I was trying to expose serega's conspiracy type thinking.
He's saying this:
If Iraq had gone to plan it would have been evidence of the West power.
If Iraq doesn't appear to go to plan, then this must have been the plan anyway, because the West always get's what it wants.
It's a type of irrational/fallacious thinking that is prevalent in the ME and Islamic world, where everyone sees themselves as impotent pawns whose fate is determined by Western-Jewish power/conspiracy which controls everything.
Sharks attacks in Egypt blamed on Mossad for example (I kid you not).
He's saying this:
If Iraq had gone to plan it would have been evidence of the West power.
If Iraq doesn't appear to go to plan, then this must have been the plan anyway, because the West always get's what it wants.
It's a type of irrational/fallacious thinking that is prevalent in the ME and Islamic world, where everyone sees themselves as impotent pawns whose fate is determined by Western-Jewish power/conspiracy which controls everything.
Sharks attacks in Egypt blamed on Mossad for example (I kid you not).
There's a very strong desire for empowerment amongst the people of that region and we have a duty to support secular and democratic uprisings. Thank goodness the majority of the UN now agree.
20 March 2011, 04:09 PM
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Sure, although the youth who have access to the internet and broad education and satalite television are demonstrably willing to push towards progression and reform. We went through this during the Enlightenment although the printing press and postal service, rather than Facebook, dissemenated the information. The East (Ottomans) rejected this thinking (compounded by their defeat at Vienna 1529) but, in my view, history's catching up with them. Saddam banned satalite TV (although not for himself and his ministers), and failure to comply was met with horrific punishment.
There's a very strong desire for empowerment amongst the people of that region and we have a duty to support secular and democratic uprisings. Thank goodness the majority of the UN now agree.
There's a very strong desire for empowerment amongst the people of that region and we have a duty to support secular and democratic uprisings. Thank goodness the majority of the UN now agree.
20 March 2011, 04:12 PM
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Are you going to come out in support of the intervention, btw, given its legal status?
20 March 2011, 04:15 PM
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Gadaffi was only getting started but anyway that is not the point.
It's not a double moral standard. The West has made Mugabe a pariah, just one they chose not to remove with military force.
A true double standard would have been to endorse and support Mugabe in the face of evidence of his tyranny.
It's not a double moral standard. The West has made Mugabe a pariah, just one they chose not to remove with military force.
A true double standard would have been to endorse and support Mugabe in the face of evidence of his tyranny.
Morally yes but it was never on was it? Chucking out the man who had got rid of white rule, not a chance of support from African neighbours. All the West can do is wait for him to die or be taken out by his own people who are not as switched on as Middle East rebels.
dl
20 March 2011, 04:40 PM
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Well you might be right but I still think the region is paralysed by a certain way of impoverished thinking....and I wouldn't equate a mob unprising with a wish for a secular democracy. The Islamic world just doesn't have the philosophical and ideological tools for the latter basically.
On the issue of 'mob uprising', that's not what I saw in Tunisia and Egypt; It was largely peaceful and considered as was Libya until Gadaffi started shooting people. The sectarian uprising in Bahrain and Saudi Arabia are, of course, a very different flavour and Al Qeada's effort in the Yemen needs to be controlled.
By the way, I'd hate to be accused of double standards so must ask why you're now supporting UN intervention despite this post:
https://www.scoobynet.com/showpost.p...5&postcount=74
'kin 'ell, has the whole of Snet developed short-term memory loss?
20 March 2011, 04:51 PM
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20 March 2011, 05:03 PM
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Morally yes but it was never on was it? Chucking out the man who had got rid of white rule, not a chance of support from African neighbours. All the West can do is wait for him to die or be taken out by his own people who are not as switched on as Middle East rebels.
dl
dl
FWIW, a 'coloured' asylum seeker worked for me in Plymouth, I have heard the stories first hand, I understand the emotion.
20 March 2011, 07:08 PM
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As your bias and hardheadedness are quite obvious, along with a failure to use your intelligence to think beyond what you read in the papers and books there is really no point continuing this any further.
I'll accept your understanding of me as being a conspiration-loving hippy, to save you from more trouble of trying to percieve different opinions without reverting to stereotypes
20 March 2011, 07:16 PM
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It's meddling in the sense that we might get our fingers very badly burnt.
"Coloureds" are generally mixed race from South Africa living primarily in the Cape region and Durban. Do you mean a black person from Zimbabwe?
dl
"Coloureds" are generally mixed race from South Africa living primarily in the Cape region and Durban. Do you mean a black person from Zimbabwe?
dl
20 March 2011, 07:38 PM
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No, she was a mixed-race Zimbabwean, Shonan iirc, white father (unknown) and black mother. She came over here in 2003 or 2004.
Last edited by JTaylor; 20 March 2011 at 07:39 PM.
20 March 2011, 07:48 PM
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Obviously i had a laugh for different reasons, and that is your absolute failure to deduct anything from the sentences you have read and my latter remark was aimed at mimicking the post about me .
As your bias and hardheadedness are quite obvious, along with a failure to use your intelligence to think beyond what you read in the papers and books there is really no point continuing this any further.
I'll accept your understanding of me as being a conspiration-loving hippy, to save you from more trouble of trying to percieve different opinions without reverting to stereotypes
As your bias and hardheadedness are quite obvious, along with a failure to use your intelligence to think beyond what you read in the papers and books there is really no point continuing this any further.
I'll accept your understanding of me as being a conspiration-loving hippy, to save you from more trouble of trying to percieve different opinions without reverting to stereotypes
Last edited by tony de wonderful; 20 March 2011 at 07:49 PM.
20 March 2011, 07:53 PM
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20 March 2011, 07:58 PM
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the Iraqi authorities shot dead 20 protestors last week, protesting against the same corruption and chronyism that the Libyans are -- maybe we should re-invade Iraq, they have lots of sand too
20 March 2011, 08:07 PM
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Lets just cut to the chase:
Invade Libya, occupy the country, take over the oil (the west needs it more) install pro west puppet government. Then look towards Iran with a view to putting them in their place and installing the Shar. But this is not to be like Iraq where we kicked *** then stood back. We go in kick ***, then kick *** again until they come around to our way of thinking.
If the west is not willing to do this, it simply does nothing and lets the Libyans fight it out internaly. End of.
Invade Libya, occupy the country, take over the oil (the west needs it more) install pro west puppet government. Then look towards Iran with a view to putting them in their place and installing the Shar. But this is not to be like Iraq where we kicked *** then stood back. We go in kick ***, then kick *** again until they come around to our way of thinking.
If the west is not willing to do this, it simply does nothing and lets the Libyans fight it out internaly. End of.
20 March 2011, 08:14 PM
#240
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Lets just cut to the chase:
Invade Libya, occupy the country, take over the oil (the west needs it more) install pro west puppet government. Then look towards Iran with a view to putting them in their place and installing the Shar. But this is not to be like Iraq where we kicked *** then stood back. We go in kick ***, then kick *** again until they come around to our way of thinking.
If the west is not willing to do this, it simply does nothing and lets the Libyans fight it out internaly. End of.
Invade Libya, occupy the country, take over the oil (the west needs it more) install pro west puppet government. Then look towards Iran with a view to putting them in their place and installing the Shar. But this is not to be like Iraq where we kicked *** then stood back. We go in kick ***, then kick *** again until they come around to our way of thinking.
If the west is not willing to do this, it simply does nothing and lets the Libyans fight it out internaly. End of.