Adrian F

Basicly how can the government change peoples contract T&C's when they want the penson is part of peoples employments contract when they took the job if the government wants to change this should either buy it off people or just close it to new staff.

As for private sector most of people in that are now getting wage rises this year public sector is still in a wage freeze

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

This, it isnt the 13 grand a year Gravedigger or the 30k a year teacher bleeding the country dry after 40 odd years of paying in is it !

Mrfastbaz

I have worked for the nhs for nearly 10 years now i have a staff of 8 working for me and regularly put in extra hours unpaid every week and am certainly not on 30 grand a year in fact i have only recently reached the pay that i was on when i was made redundant in 1995 working for a large private company with a good pension scheme as good as the nhs one i am in at present.......good holidays and regular overtime and half an hour a day shorter hours....so i can se both sides of the coin and certainly think there are benefits to be had from bothe public and private sector jobs.......needs must so if a job comes up you take your choice and grab it...after neing unemployed for nearly 4 years this nhs job came along and i was lucky enough to get it and enjoy working ther.....take any benefits that are attached and no doubt if any job in private sector that came along then i would have done the same and took that...you have got to eat at the ned of the day...

jonc

You don't get it do you The Government gets its money from the private sector. Take away the private sector money, where else will the Government get it's money to pay for public sector salaries and pensions?

Say that without people doing public sector jobs will put the country in a bigger mess is no different for those in the private sector. Indeed the situation would be even worse if no one did the private sector jobs; the private sector accounts for nearly 80% of the UK workforce, no tax revenue to fund the public sector and more people on benefits.

Everyone is entitled to a nice salary and pension. Are you saying that the public sector workers have more of an entitlement to this at the expense of the private sector, many of whom are finding it increasingly difficult to make ends meet, keep their business running, who also work in low paid "menial" jobs etc?

The government are already tackling "those who are sponging off the government, people who have no intentions of getting a job". They are doing away with all the multitudes of benefits to be replaced with a universal credit system. It's only right that the Government should now start on tackling the massive public sector overhead that has burdened the fragile economy. The middle England private sector have made sacrifices, it's time those in the public sector to do the same to shoulder some of the responsibility in this economic climate.

tony de wonderful

I agree they are necessary but it's not a reason to hold the country to ransom. Private sector jobs are also as necessary, in many instances.

The point about the tax is that ultimately all tax comes from the private sector. Teachers etc do not contribute NET tax, the gov is just taking with one hand what it gives with the other.

Say for example that the total pay to Teachers is £1 billion. They pay £200 million tax back to the Government as income tax. Well they really just COST the taxpayer £800 million in effect. Whether they pay income tax or not is incidental, it's the net cost to the taxpayer which matters.

The public sector is NET fiscal drain. Must be by definition.

Petem95

Public sector workers would be best to just accept these cuts/extra contributions are required, as either way they are coming.

They either accept them in a controlled manner like this, or listen to the unions - strike and cause a fuss - then much harsher cut backs will have to be made in the end - no matter who's in government.

scoobysewell69

we can argue and argue until we are blue in the face, we all have different opinions on this subject so be it. on a brighter side am getting an engine rebuild in the next few months laying the foundations for upgrades yey

s70rjw

iTrader: (2)

What percentage of their salary do people pay towards their pensions in the private sector?
I pay 11% and have done for the last 25 years in public sector.

njkmrs

[QUOTE=Adrian F;10093730]Basicly how can the government change peoples contract T&C's when they want the penson is part of peoples employments contract when they took the job if the government wants to change this should either buy it off people or just close it to new staff.

Simples !!
I have been paying into Pensions since I was 18 ,so 22 yrs .The government have now said I will probably have to work until im 66/67 ,maybe 68 .Its as easy as that .Thats how they can do it .I did not get asked if it was OK ,I just have to accept it .

Why do Public Sector have any right to say no thanks thats not for me I will take mine at 50 please .Thankyou .

Its the same for all of us Im afraid .

I wonder if Public Sector could try and move their Pensions to Stakeholder or similar ,then they could take it at whatever age they want like me .
But just a warning .You get out what you put in .!! And proportional to retirement age .Not one of those gold plated at the Publics expense no matter what it costs ones .

I did forewarn this was going to happen a while ago !!

_Meridian_

iTrader: (1)

So, the fact that the private sector wouldn't stand up for itself means that the public sector shouldn't be allowed to? As usual, the principle argument on display here seems to Dog in a Manger.


M

Chip

I cant recall the unions taking any action over Labours excessive borrowing.

Chip

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-10912958

This is an iteresting overview, I work for 40 years and get 40/80th (half) of my salary and pay 8.5%. It's not the same for other professions though.......

Shaun

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Well I dont know anyone who does pay more tax than they earn, do you?

Public sector on average get paid less than their private sector counterparts, end of.
3% pay decrease (as this is how you have to look at it) in a sector that isnt doing overtime or getting a pay rise is a big issue, fuel bills are up, cost of living is rising etc and those on the least wages will suffer first.

The guys where I work who were (are) on a final salary scheme have had a 4% increase, its not too bad for them though as they can cover that with an extra days OT per month, and most are nearing retirement age who are on that scheme anyway.

As for the unions being broken up tdw, go see what they have done for us to start with, you may change your mind unless you dont want holidays or pay rises (health and safety etc).

Tony

jonc

The "dog in a manger" is the public sector. It seems they're the ones not willing to help shoulder the some of the burden for the fragile economy just so they can keep their expensive final salary pensions. Keep the public sector in status quo while everyone else suffers to keep the public sector happy? The public sector reform is not a choice, it's a necessity, so they better get used to the idea!

Chip

It is interesting. I'm surprised how much variation there is between the different schemes.

Chip

tony de wonderful

Difference is that public sector pay ALL COMES FROM TAX RECEIPTS.

It's pretty simple.

Private sector funds the public sector.

It ALL comes from the private sector ultimately.

This was to counter the argument earlier that Teachers (and public sector) workers are somehow doing the country a favor by paying tax. How can you fund the public sector if you are a net drain on it?

hodgy0_2

the average public sector pension is less that 8k a year

we seem to be embarking on a "race to the bottom" in this country

low skill, low wage economy

but on the bright side it does leave more money around for us at the top

jonc

I think you'll find that it is the public sector that get paid more than private sector. 2009 figurs show that the average salary for public employees was £23,600 compared to £21,528 for private, more that £2000 extra for the public employee. Check the ONS and you'll see public sector pay increasing greater than the rate for the private sector.

Remember, whilst many low paid public sector workers get a pension, the majority of the low paid in the private sector do not get this luxury.

austinwrx

well I work in the public sector for a housing association.

we have zero goverment/tax payer contributions to our company.

the top up to my pension is from my employer. We are soley self sustaining from our own income.

So I think some of the public sector pension, tax payer arguments on here are clearly nonsense.

I could earn more in the private sector, but equally I enjoy the a.l, the flexi and the freedom I have in my job.

There is clearly an element of looking forward to a decent pension when I retire: in fact to really get you angry: I'm looking at a 6 figure lump sum and currently £36k a yr (thereabouts in today's money) for my pension.

But I have a very senior, well paid job and have been paying in at a very high rate since I was very young as I was already in management by 24/25 yrs.

I also like to think I've been paying enough in tax to support all the feckless, daft and unemployed for long enough to get someback myself on day.

no point moaning about pensions, if you don't reckon on the millions in this country happily sat on the dole, breeding like vicky pollard.

Tidgy

can someone please explain to me in simpleton terms exactly what the changes are and what they mean. so far all i see is 'striking over pensions'

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Jonc, A friend of mine works in IT doing all of the computer systems for his local council/schools/libraries etc, he "was" on £26000 per annum, he is now on £18000 per annum, is this actually as much as the private sector for a fully skilled IT engineer or is that about 12k less? (you may find its 12k less).

TDW, lets all put our faith in private sector funding, give them the jobs the public sector do, your still going to pay for it you know as your taxes will double as they charge more, go have a think about it

Tony

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Basically to stop the pension funds going negative they have to put more money in.

Tidgy

so there paying more money to get the same out?

jonc

Obviously there will be variances based on skill and the type of occupation, some will earn more than others in comparible roles in either sector. But the ONS looks at the whole private and public sector, not just individual roles for their comparisons. IT in the public sector isn't great either, there are quite a few examples of the massive overspend and waste on failed or ineffective local and national IT projects in the public sector.

Midlife......

iTrader: (2)

Tidgy

That's about it......my pension contributions went up 2.5% in 2008 (from 6% to 8.5%) I think in April 2008 to keep the NHS pension system afloat and maintain the present level of benefit.

I have no argument at all about that, for 8.5% of my salary I do get a good pension deal, the only bugbear is that I work for 40 years and get 50% salary whilst other public sector workers work for 30 years and get 75% of their salary.

As I said above, I have no gripes about my curent pension for the contribution which also covers death in service.

Shaun

hodgy0_2

like the debarq of PFI -- looks good upfront, until you realise it cost you £200 to change a lightbulb (as per the contract)

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Yes lots of waste, look at the NHS system, oh just wait wasnt that HP doing that? ooops not public then contracted out to the private sector, hence my argument that it will cost more subcontracting to the private sector.
Job wise, look at a starter in the private sector IT industry, they are on what? 14k per annum, tops out about 36k? so still less for a skilled IT guy in the public sector...
Plus there are jobs in the public sector that people in the private sector wont get out of bed for the sort of money they are paid...

Private sector will always have much better times and much worse times than the public sector, but when its much better the private sector really do make considerably more money than a public sector worker.

Tony

jonc

It doesn't matter whether the public sector contracts out to private sector or not. They are at the end of the day responsible for their budget and spend. It is those responsible for the taxpayers money not to fritter it away, for example, where an NHS hospital paid contractors more than £300 to change an electrical socket, creating non-jobs at inflated salaries such as a "Tenants Involvement and Development Officer" or "Programme Manager for Transitional Change", sending councillors on "away days" to tens of thousands of pounds, or the wastage thats goes on due to inefficiencies and bureaucratic red tape, the list goes on and on.......

Daryl

Nearly all of the public sector pensions are paid for direct from taxation, there is no fund or 'pot' i.e. they are unfunded. The only ones that are funded are the local government and universities schemes. Why is this, you might well ask? Well, it's because successive governments have spunked the cash on general spending, instead of investing any of it.

Personally, I think it's hardly fair to suddenly ask workers who've contributed for years to suddenly make up for politicians own stupidity and shortsightedness, but when did this rotten coalition ever worry about that?

wrx sti ppp

it starts with one group, say the teachers, then the whole public sector is demonised, which is why i mentioned a couple of other types of jobs. they may be teachers, but at the end of the day they are fellow human beings trying to get the best for them and their families and not at the expense of others...hmmm...bankers comes to mind! i wouldnt want to do a teacher's job...i have every sympathy for anyone, in any industry that feels they have to such drastic action to safeguard their futures.