Public Sector Pensions
17 June 2011, 05:42 PM
#61
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Nearly all of the public sector pensions are paid for direct from taxation, there is no fund or 'pot' i.e. they are unfunded. The only ones that are funded are the local government and universities schemes. Why is this, you might well ask? Well, it's because successive governments have spunked the cash on general spending, instead of investing any of it.
Personally, I think it's hardly fair to suddenly ask workers who've contributed for years to suddenly make up for politicians own stupidity and shortsightedness, but when did this rotten coalition ever worry about that?
Personally, I think it's hardly fair to suddenly ask workers who've contributed for years to suddenly make up for politicians own stupidity and shortsightedness, but when did this rotten coalition ever worry about that?
But you had one of the Teachers unions people on TV saying that these cuts might mean all new Teachers leave the pension schemes and they would would 'go bust' because of that. It's total dishonesty, these pensions are just liabilities for the taxpayer, they only go under if the state become insolvent.
17 June 2011, 05:44 PM
#62
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I have never heard such utter rubbish. are you for real? i have had a pay freeze for the last 3 years for instance whilst being asked to do more and more work. i dont get overtime, my job is unpredictable and not one most people would relish doing...so don't tell me that the public sector has to take a hit as if they havent so far. you couldnt be further from the truth!
17 June 2011, 07:59 PM
#63
I'm hearing a lot of the typical public sector mentality of “I work in the public sector and my situation is such and such and I don't get this and that and we're really hard done by...”. Well you know what, your situation is by no means unique, this is happening in the private sector too! Some of you are so pre-occuppied bleating on about not having a pay rise blah blah, you don't seem to take notice that in fact you're the lucky ones and that both private and public sector has seen many having to take big pay cuts or job losses. This isn't directed at anyone personally, but this is what I'm seeing and hearing.
The Government asks that retirement be taken in line with state pension, that contributions rise on average by 3.2%, but no contribution for those below £15k and capped at 1.5% for those earning up to £18k, that pensions be based on career average salary rather than final salary. I'd say that is fair given the current economic climate. There is an unsustainable £30billion pension black hole, what would you suggest the Government do instead? You can't expect the private sector to plug this hole with out help from the public sector. Sticking your public sector head in the sand will not make it go away!
The Government asks that retirement be taken in line with state pension, that contributions rise on average by 3.2%, but no contribution for those below £15k and capped at 1.5% for those earning up to £18k, that pensions be based on career average salary rather than final salary. I'd say that is fair given the current economic climate. There is an unsustainable £30billion pension black hole, what would you suggest the Government do instead? You can't expect the private sector to plug this hole with out help from the public sector. Sticking your public sector head in the sand will not make it go away!
17 June 2011, 08:20 PM
#65
to be fair to public service workers some do more than others , and its about time the goverment figured out that one shoe does not fit all . for example
office waller working until 68 NO PROBLEM
fireman 68 running up a ladder DON'T THINK SO
copper chasing kids at 68 DON'T MAKE ME LAUGH
midwife or nurse lifting chubba's at 68 ISN'T HAPPENING
forget whats fair and what isn't a degree of common sence is required here something goverment sadly lacks
office waller working until 68 NO PROBLEM
fireman 68 running up a ladder DON'T THINK SO
copper chasing kids at 68 DON'T MAKE ME LAUGH
midwife or nurse lifting chubba's at 68 ISN'T HAPPENING
forget whats fair and what isn't a degree of common sence is required here something goverment sadly lacks
17 June 2011, 08:47 PM
#68
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office waller working until 68 NO PROBLEM
fireman 68 running up a ladder DON'T THINK SO
copper chasing kids at 68 DON'T MAKE ME LAUGH
midwife or nurse lifting chubba's at 68 ISN'T HAPPENING
forget whats fair and what isn't a degree of common sence is required here something goverment sadly lacks
fireman 68 running up a ladder DON'T THINK SO
copper chasing kids at 68 DON'T MAKE ME LAUGH
midwife or nurse lifting chubba's at 68 ISN'T HAPPENING
forget whats fair and what isn't a degree of common sence is required here something goverment sadly lacks
Although I think public sector pensions are just obsurd, and are going to be impossible to actually honour for current workers, I think it's important to note that many public sector workers do vital jobs such as teachers, police, NHS and forces.
17 June 2011, 08:53 PM
#69
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to be fair to public service workers some do more than others , and its about time the goverment figured out that one shoe does not fit all . for example
office waller working until 68 NO PROBLEM
fireman 68 running up a ladder DON'T THINK SO
copper chasing kids at 68 DON'T MAKE ME LAUGH
midwife or nurse lifting chubba's at 68 ISN'T HAPPENING
forget whats fair and what isn't a degree of common sence is required here something goverment sadly lacks
office waller working until 68 NO PROBLEM
fireman 68 running up a ladder DON'T THINK SO
copper chasing kids at 68 DON'T MAKE ME LAUGH
midwife or nurse lifting chubba's at 68 ISN'T HAPPENING
forget whats fair and what isn't a degree of common sence is required here something goverment sadly lacks
17 June 2011, 08:55 PM
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17 June 2011, 09:15 PM
#72
no one has mentioned mp's yet . i remember reading somewher that tony bollock brain blair could of retired from pm and got full pension and stayed as a mp therefore making him 40grand a year better off , now thats what you call a pension , the fireman and coppers to answer tony should be given desk jobs to see out the rest of working days , but of course that would take common sence . as for council workers i personally resent the fact that 17% of my council tax goes into their pension pot
17 June 2011, 10:36 PM
#73
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Obviously the amount of cash once paid is not going to change but in all fairness its been taken up to 15 years early so people cant grumble at that!
17 June 2011, 10:50 PM
#74
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no one has mentioned mp's yet . i remember reading somewher that tony bollock brain blair could of retired from pm and got full pension and stayed as a mp therefore making him 40grand a year better off , now thats what you call a pension , the fireman and coppers to answer tony should be given desk jobs to see out the rest of working days , but of course that would take common sence . as for council workers i personally resent the fact that 17% of my council tax goes into their pension pot
It amazes me how misinformed the public in general are about what can and can not be done with whatever pension you have. It's a perfect example of how the media can manipulate people's way of thinking by giving only a small amount of information and a large dose of speculation.
It also amazes me that public sector workers, in this instance i'll use teachers as someone has already pointed out that they will go bust if they increase their contributions, have not been given the choice of paying increased contributions for the same benefit of paying the same contributions for a reduced benefit going forward. Many defined benefit schemes have already gone through this process successfully in recent years so why not the public sector?
17 June 2011, 11:06 PM
#75
Chris-boris
Looking at the data I have on the back of a *** packet most of the retired plod I see are around 50........ and have a job doing someting else.
http://www.southyorks.police.uk/foi/...relog/20090592
Shaun
Looking at the data I have on the back of a *** packet most of the retired plod I see are around 50........ and have a job doing someting else.
http://www.southyorks.police.uk/foi/...relog/20090592
Shaun
18 June 2011, 09:43 AM
#76
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personally, i am happy to pay extra into my pension, work till i am older in line with others...what i am not happy about is the assertion that average earnings related pension will be forced upon us. that is the one decent benefit of public sector work and part way through my career they want to change it...i wont roll over on that one. would you, in my position? or perhaps there's more i could do, like work for free or something!
what we should be doing is pressing the govt to tackle the massive corporate tax evasion that goes on...something in the region of £90 billion a year rather than hit the workers.
18 June 2011, 10:48 AM
#77
There's a difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance. Show me evidence where Corporate tax evasion amounts to £90bn a year. If there is castigating of public servants, what do you expect when the majority of public servants expect to continue as they are and let the tax payers keep piling in money into their unsustainable pensions. If you've not had a pay cut or lost your job then you are lucky! Like I said many in both public and private have not been as fortunate. If there is no reform, you can expect bigger cuts in spending and jobs in the public sector and more tax increases for everyone and that is a fact!
18 June 2011, 11:20 AM
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18 June 2011, 12:28 PM
#79
Yep....... the old police pension closed to new entrants 2006 just like the old NHS pension closed to new entrants in 2008. The replacement pension package was somewhat less attractive for some new entrants.
Don't remember the teachers pension scheme closing to new entrants........
Shaun
Don't remember the teachers pension scheme closing to new entrants........
Shaun
18 June 2011, 01:54 PM
#80
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There's a difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance. Show me evidence where Corporate tax evasion amounts to £90bn a year. If there is castigating of public servants, what do you expect when the majority of public servants expect to continue as they are and let the tax payers keep piling in money into their unsustainable pensions. If you've not had a pay cut or lost your job then you are lucky! Like I said many in both public and private have not been as fortunate. If there is no reform, you can expect bigger cuts in spending and jobs in the public sector and more tax increases for everyone and that is a fact!
I wonder, how many of us have noticed that over the last 10 years, the local council has shiney, air conditioned offices and yet, the local school is a dilapidated wreck of 70s poor design and rot.
Local council middle management - even in back water welsh market towns - have pension pots of over half a million in many case.
And the public sector workers expect sympathy? Jog, the f*ck, on
18 June 2011, 05:58 PM
#81
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Yep that is right it killed the UK's productivity and competitiveness in the 70's and early 80's.
There are only really a few places where 'big unions' exists now and mainly they are in the public sector, and this is because of collective bargaining: the Government being the single employer.
All unions are effectively are special interest groups which seeks to leverage their interests (the pay of their members) against everyone else....in this case the private sector and taxpayer.
The Tories really need to break up these Teaching unions and stop this nonsense. This will happen if the unions over-extend which I think they are doing...the public have zero sympathy with them.
There are only really a few places where 'big unions' exists now and mainly they are in the public sector, and this is because of collective bargaining: the Government being the single employer.
All unions are effectively are special interest groups which seeks to leverage their interests (the pay of their members) against everyone else....in this case the private sector and taxpayer.
The Tories really need to break up these Teaching unions and stop this nonsense. This will happen if the unions over-extend which I think they are doing...the public have zero sympathy with them.
Unions and political parties have a lot to answer for in the 60s/70s. The big fight that was the 80s was just the obvious result of previous decades.
IMO this is exactly the wrong time to "persecute" the public sector. Or is it exactly the right time? They're going to generate a lot of genuine hatred over these reforms. But at the same time, people everywhere feel vulnerable at the moment.
J.
18 June 2011, 06:39 PM
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Nationalisation has a lot to answer for! NHS is generally a "good idea" but Leyland was a disaster. I won't mention trains as seeling those off is a bigger disaster.
Unions and political parties have a lot to answer for in the 60s/70s. The big fight that was the 80s was just the obvious result of previous decades.
IMO this is exactly the wrong time to "persecute" the public sector. Or is it exactly the right time? They're going to generate a lot of genuine hatred over these reforms. But at the same time, people everywhere feel vulnerable at the moment.
J.
Unions and political parties have a lot to answer for in the 60s/70s. The big fight that was the 80s was just the obvious result of previous decades.
IMO this is exactly the wrong time to "persecute" the public sector. Or is it exactly the right time? They're going to generate a lot of genuine hatred over these reforms. But at the same time, people everywhere feel vulnerable at the moment.
J.
In some ways I hope the unions over-reach like Icarus and the Gov takes them down.
18 June 2011, 06:42 PM
#83
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There's a difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance. Show me evidence where Corporate tax evasion amounts to £90bn a year. If there is castigating of public servants, what do you expect when the majority of public servants expect to continue as they are and let the tax payers keep piling in money into their unsustainable pensions. If you've not had a pay cut or lost your job then you are lucky! Like I said many in both public and private have not been as fortunate. If there is no reform, you can expect bigger cuts in spending and jobs in the public sector and more tax increases for everyone and that is a fact!
my figures were wrong, tax evasion costs £25bn a year and tax avoidance is £15bn a year...not a small amount by any stretch of the imagination i am sure you will agree. i dont want to alter the subject of the thread, i only mentioned the tax issue simply because it is such an enormous amount and before hitting workers who work to provide for their communities and the country as a whole, the tax avoidance/evasion issue would recoup a lot of money.
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2...tax-avoidance/
http://citywire.co.uk/new-model-advi...-fraud/a378274
if you read my posts i stated that i have had a pay cut as i have not had a pay rise for 3 years, therefore a cut in real terms. yes i am lucky and grateful to have a job, but i am no way solid gold secure as the LA i work for is shedding jobs, saving millions of pounds a year. these cuts will affect services and therefore people...lets not forget that, because if essential services are cut and the people who staff them are treated badly by the government changing their pensions part way through their careers, everyone suffers.
having said that, i accept things need to change as previously stated in my previous posts. its just that i do not agree with the final salary proposed change.
18 June 2011, 06:48 PM
#84
Evasion is illegal, avoidance isn't.
I wonder, how many of us have noticed that over the last 10 years, the local council has shiney, air conditioned offices and yet, the local school is a dilapidated wreck of 70s poor design and rot.
Local council middle management - even in back water welsh market towns - have pension pots of over half a million in many case.
And the public sector workers expect sympathy? Jog, the f*ck, on
I wonder, how many of us have noticed that over the last 10 years, the local council has shiney, air conditioned offices and yet, the local school is a dilapidated wreck of 70s poor design and rot.
Local council middle management - even in back water welsh market towns - have pension pots of over half a million in many case.
And the public sector workers expect sympathy? Jog, the f*ck, on
18 June 2011, 06:51 PM
#85
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my figures were wrong, tax evasion costs £25bn a year and tax avoidance is £15bn a year...not a small amount by any stretch of the imagination i am sure you will agree. i dont want to alter the subject of the thread, i only mentioned the tax issue simply because it is such an enormous amount and before hitting workers who work to provide for their communities and the country as a whole, the tax avoidance/evasion issue would recoup a lot of money.
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2...tax-avoidance/
http://citywire.co.uk/new-model-advi...-fraud/a378274
if you read my posts i stated that i have had a pay cut as i have not had a pay rise for 3 years, therefore a cut in real terms. yes i am lucky and grateful to have a job, but i am no way solid gold secure as the LA i work for is shedding jobs, saving millions of pounds a year. these cuts will affect services and therefore people...lets not forget that, because if essential services are cut and the people who staff them are treated badly by the government changing their pensions part way through their careers, everyone suffers.
having said that, i accept things need to change as previously stated in my previous posts. its just that i do not agree with the final salary proposed change.
http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2...tax-avoidance/
http://citywire.co.uk/new-model-advi...-fraud/a378274
if you read my posts i stated that i have had a pay cut as i have not had a pay rise for 3 years, therefore a cut in real terms. yes i am lucky and grateful to have a job, but i am no way solid gold secure as the LA i work for is shedding jobs, saving millions of pounds a year. these cuts will affect services and therefore people...lets not forget that, because if essential services are cut and the people who staff them are treated badly by the government changing their pensions part way through their careers, everyone suffers.
having said that, i accept things need to change as previously stated in my previous posts. its just that i do not agree with the final salary proposed change.
It's just a red herring put out by Politicians trying to blame their reckless spending on someone.
18 June 2011, 06:55 PM
#87
Scooby Regular
Vodaphone got out of at least a billion in one go
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-tax-deal.html
http://cachef.ft.com/cms/s/0/2bc7174...#axzz1PeS6GDg5
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ves-sour-taste
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-tax-deal.html
http://cachef.ft.com/cms/s/0/2bc7174...#axzz1PeS6GDg5
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ves-sour-taste
18 June 2011, 06:58 PM
#88
It's always been this way though. The Gov spends loads chasing up cheats but at some point it is not worth spending the money. The tax system is set up like this. I guess you call it a tax raising efficientcy or something? Would never be 100%.
It's just a red herring put out by Politicians trying to blame their reckless spending on someone.
It's just a red herring put out by Politicians trying to blame their reckless spending on someone.
18 June 2011, 07:00 PM
#89
Vodaphone got out of at least a billion in one go
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-tax-deal.html
http://cachef.ft.com/cms/s/0/2bc7174...#axzz1PeS6GDg5
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ves-sour-taste
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-tax-deal.html
http://cachef.ft.com/cms/s/0/2bc7174...#axzz1PeS6GDg5
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ves-sour-taste
06 July 2011, 11:20 AM
#90
Now then .The Truths out .
The Public Sector "Wallers" have been earning 8% more than their counterpounts in the Private Sector .Kind of ends the argument that their Pensions are larger due to earning less throughout out their careers .Tut Tut .!!!
Start paying for your Pensions instead of expecting us to fund them .We have our own to fund .!!
The Public Sector "Wallers" have been earning 8% more than their counterpounts in the Private Sector .Kind of ends the argument that their Pensions are larger due to earning less throughout out their careers .Tut Tut .!!!
Start paying for your Pensions instead of expecting us to fund them .We have our own to fund .!!