hodgy0_2

Tbh TDW you are, by far the best advert for a policy of strict gun control

The thought of you sitting in your flat, alone, posting “hate” on the internet whilst methodically cleaning your assault rifle is almost too disturbing for words

JTaylor

My reason for asking is that the same question is being asked in Norway.

JTaylor

What a shîtty thing to say.

tony de wonderful

Well I gave you my opinion.

If multi-culturalism etc Islamic immigration is such a strong and robust idea then it shouldn't be afraid of a silly manifesto written by a nut right?

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

So was the guy a Knights Templar? Or a Mason aspiring to be one?

TelBoy

Unfortunately i think you're potentially right.

But the human in me still has an instinctive desire to know what makes these people tick.

Tricky one.

what would scooby do

Fear would be one basic component..

Leslie

Not really Tony, but nevertheless I think there are likely to be people who tend towards that kind of behaviour and would be more likely to try it on if guns were more easily available.

Its a matter of the opportunity presenting itself.

Les

JTaylor

It's a very tricky one, Tel. I'm a third of the way through his document for exactly the reasons you highlight in your second sentence. What I cannot square is how he's concluded that this act will promote cultural Christian conservatism. All I envisage is people publicly distancing themselves from those beliefs, or remaining silent, for fear of being linked with a mass-murderer. I'm sure there'll be liberal-left activists who, whilst appalled at the human loss, will, when considered dispassionatley, quietly view the event as offering-up massive political advantage. Whilst Breivik claims to want to combat cultural-Marxism, and making the fair assumption that his vision of a European civil war isn't realised, in my view, he's handed his opponents a result and dealt a blow to the unsullied, free expression of legitimate conservative thinking.

JTaylor

I'm not so sure it's about the substance but rather his means of bringing it to a wider audience. If he committed these acts in order to promote his agenda, is it sensible or right for the Norwegian state to be complicit in that promotion? If it's going to expose him as a 'lunatic' then probably best to get it out there - if it's going to be the same line as the Progress Party, the Labour Party would probably want it public for the reasons I've outlined above, however, if it plants the seed in the minds of would-be terrorist activists that murder equals exposure, then we have to be very careful.

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

Trying to censor his views may backfire and further inflame such sentiments amoung the fringes of the right wing, as those inclined towards this kind of view will interpret it as evidence there is a government and media sanctioned conspiracy against their position. Most likely this will just compound their sense of alientation and frustration and drive them to more extreme measures to get heard.

billythekid

Its a very strange incident. Sounds like this will get AQ and the like scratching their heads a bit!!

22BUK

But he won't though - maximum sentence for murder in Norway is 21 years.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...jail-most.html

JTaylor

There is the opportunity to extend the sentence if he's considered a threat at the time of his potential release. I'm guessing he'll still be considered a threat.

22BUK

Perhaps the UK should have the same opportunity regarding releasing paedophiles into the community.

JTaylor

The essence of his thinking isn't on the fringe, though. The Progress party is the second most popular in Norway, Angela Merkel holds comparable views as do many of the Danes and so forth. It's the means of promoting those views that are extreme along with how he envisages them coming to fruition, but not the essence of the views themselves. It's baffling.

It won't compound their sense of alienation, because they weren't alienated. At risk of repeating myself, the Christian-right are on the rise all over Europe. This was my point in my posts above - he's damaged the very philosophy he believes he's promoting. It just doesn't add up.

I understand the political ends of the IRA and AQ and Tamil Tigers and Hamas and so on; I don't get this. The Progress party were edging towards power via legitimate political means - he may well have put a halt to that which surely defeats the desired outcome.

JTaylor

We do.

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

I havent read much about this but he seems to have gone on a rampage killing people to protest about multi-culturism, anti Islam sentiment and immigration, surely he is actually doing AQ's job for them anyway ?

I think he is a just insane, any political agenda or views are null when you kill people for your "cause", same for AQ and the IRA or any other terrorist.

tony de wonderful

Maybe that was part of his plan. If conservative voices are disenfranchised they may turn to more extreme solutions.

tony de wonderful

I've heard this a lot but I really don't think it is significant and the 'threat' that liberal-lefties make it out to be.

Nationalism was acceptable prior to WW2 but the sins if fascism have tainted it. You won't get the middle classes drawn to it like what happen in Germany, it will just stay a fringe movement.

JTaylor

Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness bombed their way to the negotiating table; Hamas control Palestine; Nelson Mandela was the leader of the armed wing of the ANC etc, etc.

JTaylor

I'm not talking radicals and fundementalists here, but legitimate, electable or
elected, pragmatic parties with culturally Christian-conservative values - Merkel's on record as saying multi-culturalism isn't working. The pace of change was too slow for Breivik and he believed he was speeding up that process. Insane?

tony de wonderful

Well I don't think Merkel's stance is equivalent to say banning Muslim immigration or deporting immigrants.

It's not either/or.

Unlimited Immigration leading to Sharia Europe vs Christian fascist Europe.

jef

iTrader: (13)

i think trying to understand his actions is just about impossible for any sane person,

his religous beleifs i dont think promote mass murder of kids - i know it was a camp for some political group, but as soon as people start killing like this - there not thinking sanely. and therfore you cant really understand him.

im really surprised he didnt do himself in also - hes going to get toatlly f*cked in jail!

GlesgaKiss

Commit the crime, go to trial, get the punishment. Simple as that. This nutter is not going to get support for what he's done. Quite a lot of people, me included, have a strong dislike of cultural Marxism, but going from that to the kind of extremism this person has shown is a massive, massive leap. There are very few people capable of it in society as it currently stands.

tony de wonderful

But why do western lefties lend sympathy to say Palestinian terrorists or Hezzbollah who kill Israeli kids?

JTaylor

This is what baffles me about fundamentalism - it's just completely impractical and unpragmatic. If one follows it through to its logical conclusion it's doomed to failure. I've been thinking out loud on this thread, trying to get inside Brievik's head, but I just cannot fathom where he thought this would end-completely divorced from reality? Functioning psychopath? Evil?

GlesgaKiss

They're not plugged in to reality. Same reason they go all out in their scathing arguments about the oppression inherent in capitalism, but reserve only mild criticism for 3rd world despotic regimes going under the guise of 'communism' - much fairer to all be starving than for some people to have a little while others have a lot.

jef

iTrader: (13)

i honestly dont know

its just all fcked up!

but then were werent raised there - they possib;y lived with war/fighting all there lives - lost family members to the "other side", ans seek revenge?

tony de wonderful

Sure it's mental from the POV of reason. I've tried to understand say how people got sucked into say the loony side of National Socialism. I really can't.

Sometimes I think this sort of craziness is like political ideology made by an artist. Like it's created from nothing and just exists on its own term which you could call 'brave' if you were into it....like a kind of leap of faith.