Oslo bomb blast
28 July 2011, 09:24 PM
#211
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I disagree. Tony's assertion was not factually correct
Although you make a fair point or two, you have to ask why isn't there reasonable debate about those issues, from both sides of the fence (as you see it)?
And I am really sorry to say James, this is not a wind up, but you have not suffered, in the slightest, from being able to air your views on here, have you?
The intention of shutting up anothers opinion, because it doesn't agree with ones own, is something I have encountered here rather a lot.
Not pointing the finger at anyone, just saying what I think.
Asif
The left need to ask and be asked some serious questions. The second biggest crime has been to close down debate around immigration and brand grass-roots concerns about dramatic cultural shifts as "racist", "Islamaphobic" and "bigoted". The idea that not having the discussion will somehow make the problem go away is madness and has driven the issue underground where actually it ought to be treated seriously and addressed with mutual respect in democratic forums. The extension of this is that ordinary people begin to feel disenfranchised and move further to the right and the left start co-opting Islamist narrative to counter; we're left with serious division as opposed to mutual understanding. A good example are the EDL demonstrations which are countered by Islam4uk and Unite Against Fascism - that the UAF should choose to stand amongst Choudry's ultra-fascists leaves me incredulous, it's doublethink, but serves to highlight how the absence of discourse leads to warped thinking on both sides.
The upshot of Political Correctness or cultural-Marxism or the Thought Police or however you wish to describe the surpression of free expression is tension and frustration and, it would seem, ultimately madness and mass-murder.
If you take Snet as a microcosm and observe how counterjihadist thinking has been addressed by its opponents, it hasn't been via honest debate, it's been largely via branding and personal attacks to discredit and scare others off. Who are the fascists, here?
The upshot of Political Correctness or cultural-Marxism or the Thought Police or however you wish to describe the surpression of free expression is tension and frustration and, it would seem, ultimately madness and mass-murder.
If you take Snet as a microcosm and observe how counterjihadist thinking has been addressed by its opponents, it hasn't been via honest debate, it's been largely via branding and personal attacks to discredit and scare others off. Who are the fascists, here?
And I am really sorry to say James, this is not a wind up, but you have not suffered, in the slightest, from being able to air your views on here, have you?
The intention of shutting up anothers opinion, because it doesn't agree with ones own, is something I have encountered here rather a lot.
Not pointing the finger at anyone, just saying what I think.
Asif
28 July 2011, 09:28 PM
#212
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Asif, i'll ask the awkward question, if you don't mind. Assuming you're Muslim, and assuming you live in the UK, why do you choose to live in the UK rather than a Muslim country?
28 July 2011, 09:30 PM
#213
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Hi Tel. How are the neighbours these days?
It's my home. Why do you live here and why do you ask please?
Asif
28 July 2011, 09:34 PM
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The neighbours? The wooden gate? 
It's my home too. I'm not a Muslim and this is not a Muslim country. So i sort of think there's no dichotomy. Over to you.
It's my home too. I'm not a Muslim and this is not a Muslim country. So i sort of think there's no dichotomy. Over to you.
28 July 2011, 09:44 PM
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28 July 2011, 09:47 PM
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I disagree. Tony's assertion was not factually correct
Although you make a fair point or two, you have to ask why isn't there reasonable debate about those issues, from both sides of the fence (as you see it)?
And I am really sorry to say James, this is not a wind up, but you have not suffered, in the slightest, from being able to air your views on here, have you?
The intention of shutting up anothers opinion, because it doesn't agree with ones own, is something I have encountered here rather a lot.
Not pointing the finger at anyone, just saying what I think.
Asif
Although you make a fair point or two, you have to ask why isn't there reasonable debate about those issues, from both sides of the fence (as you see it)?
And I am really sorry to say James, this is not a wind up, but you have not suffered, in the slightest, from being able to air your views on here, have you?
The intention of shutting up anothers opinion, because it doesn't agree with ones own, is something I have encountered here rather a lot.
Not pointing the finger at anyone, just saying what I think.
Asif
28 July 2011, 09:47 PM
#217
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Ok, but why do you ask? I am Muslim by birth only. I live here because it's my home. I could live in many Muslim or non Muslim countries. I might emigrate, one day, depending on how things go here, but I choose to live here. I was born here, educated here, raised here, and I work here. I don't see myself as different to anyone else. I consider myself to be a British Asian and proud of it. Does this answer your question?
Regarding yourself however, do you consider yourself to be Christian, Atheist, Agnostic, or something else? (forgive me, I have not read sufficient of your posts to know the answer to that question already) And do you therefore consider this country to be one of the above labels? Do you feel you fit in with that?
Asif
Last edited by AsifScoob; 28 July 2011 at 10:18 PM.
28 July 2011, 09:47 PM
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28 July 2011, 09:51 PM
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The position is where you have asserted that (let me sort of paraphrase it) 'unpopular' opinions are not allowed to be expressed.
I believe that position to be incorrect, for the reasons I have already stated.
You stated those assertions James. I am not attacking you, so please stop accusing me of that. You however ARE making those assertions.
Last edited by AsifScoob; 28 July 2011 at 09:58 PM.
28 July 2011, 10:17 PM
#220
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I'm simply not interested in these personal exchanges, I'm interested in the issues and the dialectic.
Last edited by JTaylor; 28 July 2011 at 10:23 PM.
28 July 2011, 10:43 PM
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No. I said, "If you take Snet as a microcosm and observe how counterjihadist thinking has been addressed by its opponents, it hasn't been via honest debate, it's been largely via branding and personal attacks to discredit and scare others off." Now that statement doesn't apply simply to you, or this
thread, but was a general observation. I've not asserted that "unpopular opinions are not allowed to be expressed". I repeat, going forward, if you disagree with what I say, attack it with reason and facts and if I'm wrong, and you can quote me on this, I'll concede.
thread, but was a general observation. I've not asserted that "unpopular opinions are not allowed to be expressed". I repeat, going forward, if you disagree with what I say, attack it with reason and facts and if I'm wrong, and you can quote me on this, I'll concede.
You missed out the bit about fascism. Was that not a personal attack on the 'general' others (me included)? Do you know that anyone on SN is a member of a Fascist organisation? I don't.
You complain about personal attacks, but that is exactly what you are doing. So what are you complaining about?
Why not just stick to the discussion point, which seems to have gone way off track, have you noticed?
Before you get irate, I am open minded to however you wish to proceed, but you need to ditch the whinging, the paranoia, and what appears to be rabid Islamophobia, and we can discuss whatever you wish.
28 July 2011, 10:56 PM
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Ok, but why do you ask? I am Muslim by birth only. I live here because it's my home. I could live in many Muslim or non Muslim countries. I might emigrate, one day, depending on how things go here, but I choose to live here. I was born here, educated here, raised here, and I work here. I don't see myself as different to anyone else. I consider myself to be a British Asian and proud of it. Does this answer your question?
Regarding yourself however, do you consider yourself to be Christian, Atheist, Agnostic, or something else? (forgive me, I have not read sufficient of your posts to know the answer to that question already) And do you therefore consider this country to be one of the above labels? Do you feel you fit in with that?
Asif
Regarding yourself however, do you consider yourself to be Christian, Atheist, Agnostic, or something else? (forgive me, I have not read sufficient of your posts to know the answer to that question already) And do you therefore consider this country to be one of the above labels? Do you feel you fit in with that?
Asif
But, at the risk of trivialising this, if you're watching England play India or Pakistan or Bangladesh (i don't know your origin) at cricket, who do you support? And if it's not England, why are you, or anybody else that doesn't answer England, living in England? And there are plenty of you/them living here.
28 July 2011, 11:09 PM
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But, at the risk of trivialising this, if you're watching England play India or Pakistan or Bangladesh (i don't know your origin) at cricket, who do you support? And if it's not England, why are you, or anybody else that doesn't answer England, living in England? And there are plenty of you/them living here.
This thread has gone way off topic, which is a shame, so I won't go on, but we can continue elsewhere, if you wish?
In answer to your last question, I was at Lords, last Thursday, and I wasn't supporting India. I am however not 'English'.
Asif
28 July 2011, 11:15 PM
#226
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Don't be obsessed with "why" i'm asking. You know why i'm asking. I'm asking why i have to tolerate Bradistan in the UK. Why aren't the Muslims living in Bradford living in a Muslim country instead? Tell me. What's the agenda.
Your answer to the cricket question is equally elusive. Don't play silly buggers with me, please. If you were watching England play YOUR home country at cricket, who would you support? And if it wasn't England, why don't you live in a Muslim country? Or do you simply not understand or appreciate that for the majority of English people, they don't want to be told that they HAVE to face the prospect of an increasingly "multi-cultural" United Kingdom, whatever that means.
Your answer to the cricket question is equally elusive. Don't play silly buggers with me, please. If you were watching England play YOUR home country at cricket, who would you support? And if it wasn't England, why don't you live in a Muslim country? Or do you simply not understand or appreciate that for the majority of English people, they don't want to be told that they HAVE to face the prospect of an increasingly "multi-cultural" United Kingdom, whatever that means.
Last edited by TelBoy; 28 July 2011 at 11:17 PM.
28 July 2011, 11:31 PM
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Don't be obsessed with "why" i'm asking. You know why i'm asking. I'm asking why i have to tolerate Bradistan in the UK. Why aren't the Muslims living in Bradford living in a Muslim country instead? Tell me. What's the agenda.
Your answer to the cricket question is equally elusive. Don't play silly buggers with me, please. If you were watching England play YOUR home country at cricket, who would you support? And if it wasn't England, why don't you live in a Muslim country? Or do you simply not understand or appreciate that for the majority of English people, they don't want to be told that they HAVE to face the prospect of an increasingly "multi-cultural" United Kingdom, whatever that means.
Your answer to the cricket question is equally elusive. Don't play silly buggers with me, please. If you were watching England play YOUR home country at cricket, who would you support? And if it wasn't England, why don't you live in a Muslim country? Or do you simply not understand or appreciate that for the majority of English people, they don't want to be told that they HAVE to face the prospect of an increasingly "multi-cultural" United Kingdom, whatever that means.
From that POV they chose the UK like you might choose what Hotel you stay at when you go on holiday. It's the simple - which offers the best deal.
The biggest mistake the UK made was giving these people RIGHTS with NO RESPONSIBILITIES.
In fact that goes for the western democracies in general - regarding their populations - but very much especially for the immigrants from Pakistan.
28 July 2011, 11:34 PM
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Your answer to the cricket question is equally elusive. Don't play silly buggers with me, please. If you were watching England play YOUR home country at cricket, who would you support? And if it wasn't England, why don't you live in a Muslim country? Or do you simply not understand or appreciate that for the majority of English people, they don't want to be told that they HAVE to face the prospect of an incleasingly "multi-cultural" United Kingdom, whatever that means.
As it's not illegal to support who you like...
What do you think about Brits who go and live abroad and still support England? I have been around the World and seen British flags, St Georges Crosses all over the place. What's all that about? The number of times I have encountered Brits abroad who complain that the locals don't speak English. It's laughable.
Why should I live in another country because of my perceived religion? I have about as much affinity with people from say, Somalia, or Saudi Arabia, as you have. Should all Christians go and buy a house in Bethlehem?
Where should all Atheists go then?
As far as an increasingly multi cultural UK (whatever that means) goes, most people seem clearly not that bothered, or they would have voted differently last year.
It is an issue, I agree, but it's not the most important one.
28 July 2011, 11:37 PM
#231
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Feel free to attack me personally, Tone!
You know the answer to that question Tony, why do you even bother to ask mate?
Are you going to pretend to be an objective observer, offering rational critique, all of a sudden?
Another personality transplant!
28 July 2011, 11:40 PM
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Bradford is essentially a Pakistan-over spill area. They came here for economic reasons which very much includes the welfare opportunities. Nobody starves here, everyone can have a roof over their heads and health care.
From that POV they chose the UK like you might choose what Hotel you stay at when you go on holiday. It's the simple - which offers the best deal.
From that POV they chose the UK like you might choose what Hotel you stay at when you go on holiday. It's the simple - which offers the best deal.
Can you prove this? Sounds a bit subjective to me.
28 July 2011, 11:44 PM
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29 July 2011, 12:08 AM
#234
Don't be obsessed with "why" i'm asking. You know why i'm asking. I'm asking why i have to tolerate Bradistan in the UK. Why aren't the Muslims living in Bradford living in a Muslim country instead? Tell me. What's the agenda.
Your answer to the cricket question is equally elusive. Don't play silly buggers with me, please. If you were watching England play YOUR home country at cricket, who would you support? And if it wasn't England, why don't you live in a Muslim country? Or do you simply not understand or appreciate that for the majority of English people, they don't want to be told that they HAVE to face the prospect of an increasingly "multi-cultural" United Kingdom, whatever that means.
Your answer to the cricket question is equally elusive. Don't play silly buggers with me, please. If you were watching England play YOUR home country at cricket, who would you support? And if it wasn't England, why don't you live in a Muslim country? Or do you simply not understand or appreciate that for the majority of English people, they don't want to be told that they HAVE to face the prospect of an increasingly "multi-cultural" United Kingdom, whatever that means.
29 July 2011, 07:18 AM
#235
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I don't find it entirely fair to use this against someone. There are plenty of English people that move abroad for whatever reason, that still support their home country, and their children may well follow in that support despite being born and raised elsewhere. That doesn't mean a person doesn't have respect (or even pride) for the place they live.
29 July 2011, 08:47 AM
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29 July 2011, 09:23 AM
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Don't be obsessed with "why" i'm asking. You know why i'm asking. I'm asking why i have to tolerate Bradistan in the UK. Why aren't the Muslims living in Bradford living in a Muslim country instead? Tell me. What's the agenda.
Your answer to the cricket question is equally elusive. Don't play silly buggers with me, please. If you were watching England play YOUR home country at cricket, who would you support? And if it wasn't England, why don't you live in a Muslim country? Or do you simply not understand or appreciate that for the majority of English people, they don't want to be told that they HAVE to face the prospect of an increasingly "multi-cultural" United Kingdom, whatever that means.
Your answer to the cricket question is equally elusive. Don't play silly buggers with me, please. If you were watching England play YOUR home country at cricket, who would you support? And if it wasn't England, why don't you live in a Muslim country? Or do you simply not understand or appreciate that for the majority of English people, they don't want to be told that they HAVE to face the prospect of an increasingly "multi-cultural" United Kingdom, whatever that means.
By your logic anyone that supports Brazil over England in footsyball should go live in Brazil
Mind you it is crap constantly being spoon fed by and told you have to accept multi xyz.
As for Bradford it is just ****, the same can be said for many whiter parts of the UK. Crap areas where crap people live. Take a look at the chavtowns website for more info.
I suggest people living in Bradford came over when there were mining / cotton jobs in the local area. They then had kids, then the jobs went. Faced with **** all employment in the local area crime rises. Look at the Bradford riots, they were all to do with white and brown drug gangs. The rest of its history should be on Google.
29 July 2011, 09:45 AM
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I don't find it entirely fair to use this against someone. There are plenty of English people that move abroad for whatever reason, that still support their home country, and their children may well follow in that support despite being born and raised elsewhere. That doesn't mean a person doesn't have respect (or even pride) for the place they live.
So, whilst I admire your sense of fairness, Lisa, I'm afraid there is a case for discrimination, despite what you've been indoctrinated to believe. The Pakistani cricket shirt represents far more than a sporting loyalty.
Last edited by JTaylor; 29 July 2011 at 10:08 AM. Reason: Typo
29 July 2011, 09:50 AM
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By your logic anyone that supports Brazil over England in footsyball should go live in Brazil
Mind you it is crap constantly being spoon fed by and told you have to accept multi xyz.
As for Bradford it is just ****, the same can be said for many whiter parts of the UK. Crap areas where crap people live. Take a look at the chavtowns website for more info.
I suggest people living in Bradford came over when there were mining / cotton jobs in the local area. They then had kids, then the jobs went. Faced with **** all employment in the local area crime rises. Look at the Bradford riots, they were all to do with white and brown drug gangs. The rest of its history should be on Google.