David Starkey's comments on Newsnight.
14 August 2011, 01:11 PM
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For far too long, white in this country have got this notion that black people are slaves or people suffering from the aftermath of slavery which is far from the truth. There are so many successful black middle class living the kind of lifestyle that an average white man would dream. The unfortunate thing is that, people like Dr. Starkey do not see these people as black; the blackness is applied only when there is a robbery, mugging or drug dealing involving black youths.
14 August 2011, 01:15 PM
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Starkey could have articulated that argument far better. This is an issue that is manifesting itself across skin colour. He made it sound as if that kind of behaviour was the sole dominion of black people. This likely reflects his role as a historian who is interested in the origin of the trend, which is seemingly rooted in black culture.
However, this is no longer about race; it's a problem that has been taken up across racial divides (i.e. it's everyone's problem now) and discourse needs to be directed at how decent members of communities (something that also crosses racial divides) can work together to deal with the drop outs.
Debate on this subject is too easily polarised in terms of approtioning blame to particular sectors of society and spouting a lot of pro/anti integration rhetoric.
However, this is no longer about race; it's a problem that has been taken up across racial divides (i.e. it's everyone's problem now) and discourse needs to be directed at how decent members of communities (something that also crosses racial divides) can work together to deal with the drop outs.
Debate on this subject is too easily polarised in terms of approtioning blame to particular sectors of society and spouting a lot of pro/anti integration rhetoric.
14 August 2011, 01:20 PM
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14 August 2011, 01:28 PM
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14 August 2011, 01:32 PM
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Starkey could have articulated that argument far better. This is an issue that is manifesting itself across skin colour. He made it sound as if that kind of behaviour was the sole dominion of black people. This likely reflects his role as a historian who is interested in the origin of the trend, which is seemingly rooted in black culture.
However, this is no longer about race; it's a problem that has been taken up across racial divides (i.e. it's everyone's problem now) and discourse needs to be directed at how decent members of communities (something that also crosses racial divides) can work together to deal with the drop outs.
Debate on this subject is too easily polarised in terms of approtioning blame to particular sectors of society and spouting a lot of pro/anti integration rhetoric.
However, this is no longer about race; it's a problem that has been taken up across racial divides (i.e. it's everyone's problem now) and discourse needs to be directed at how decent members of communities (something that also crosses racial divides) can work together to deal with the drop outs.
Debate on this subject is too easily polarised in terms of approtioning blame to particular sectors of society and spouting a lot of pro/anti integration rhetoric.
14 August 2011, 01:33 PM
#37
The point we should all take home from what Starkey said is the one he made at the very end of the discussion, namely "this ... culture militates against education."
If you forget any and all mention of skin-colour, you can still take that statement away and apply it universally pretty much anywhere. Any time that you've got a cultural trend which positively discourages its followers from accumulating knowledge or applying themselves at school, you can be reasonably certain its effect on them and their view of the world won't be specially beneficial.
If you forget any and all mention of skin-colour, you can still take that statement away and apply it universally pretty much anywhere. Any time that you've got a cultural trend which positively discourages its followers from accumulating knowledge or applying themselves at school, you can be reasonably certain its effect on them and their view of the world won't be specially beneficial.
14 August 2011, 01:52 PM
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R&B, Rap and Hip-Hop, often pervaded by silly and superficial and destructive gangsta (not gangster) 'culture' is black in its origins. To pretend it isn't is doublethink. Oh, and Fear of a Black Planet is one of my favourite albums.
14 August 2011, 02:01 PM
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If one started praising 'black culture' for its musical contributions would that be ok? Why is it only ok to be positive?
14 August 2011, 02:02 PM
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Last edited by f1_fan; 14 August 2011 at 02:04 PM.
14 August 2011, 02:19 PM
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It's a socialising force (or a-socialising) that is stronger than the educational socialising forces being applied to counter it.
14 August 2011, 02:31 PM
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No one's pretending anything... but that is just a culture 'enjoyed' by some black (and white) people, it is not an all encompassing big evil nasty 'culture of the ******'.... and that is the argument he seems to be putting across in one breath and then in the next declaring that the woman next to him is not part of it yet she clearly is black
14 August 2011, 02:42 PM
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He says: a “particular form” of black culture, i.e. “the violent, destructive, nihilistic, gangsta culture” of R&B, Rap and Hip-Hop. To even suggest that he implied something along the lines of "culture of the ******" is nothing more than spiteful propaganda and will be bought only by the hard of thinking; ironically and sadly the very people being criticised by Starkey and vast swathes of the population. You're supporting the very narrative, again, that's working in opposition to the welfare of our society.
14 August 2011, 02:44 PM
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Some people (not aimed at anyone on this BBS!) just want to jump on the racist bandwagon and will exploit any ambiguity in what a person says to do so; he made it a bit easy for them by referring to the more general "black culture" elswhere when I personally belive that he was continually referring back to this aspect of a culture!
To make a reasoned argument that something has its roots in a particular ethnic culture isn't racist, but to dwell on it is unhelpful when the problem crosses ethnicity!
Last edited by New_scooby_04; 14 August 2011 at 02:48 PM.
14 August 2011, 02:45 PM
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I think that was the key aspect of what he said that people missed out on!
Some people (not aimed at anyone on this BBS!) just want to jump on the racist bandwagon and he made it a bit easy for them by referring to the more general "black culture" elswhere!
To make a reasoned argument that something has its roots in a particular ethnic culture isn't racist, but to dwell on it is unhelpful when the problem becomes common crosses ethnicity!
Some people (not aimed at anyone on this BBS!) just want to jump on the racist bandwagon and he made it a bit easy for them by referring to the more general "black culture" elswhere!
To make a reasoned argument that something has its roots in a particular ethnic culture isn't racist, but to dwell on it is unhelpful when the problem becomes common crosses ethnicity!
14 August 2011, 02:55 PM
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14 August 2011, 02:56 PM
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But again, you have to remember that he is a historian and I dare say is correct in identifying the roots of gang culture. BUT
1) He is unwise to pin it down to a certain race, intentionally or otherwise, because it is disparate with the situation we're now in
2) His detractors are equally unwise to fixate on the specifics of his wording and not the message
Neither approach moves the deabate forward. It just gets it bogged down!
Gang culture is something that has spread to all races now; that much cannot be denied. Whilst the educated endlessly argue about terms and rhetoric, the uneducated continue to swell in ranks because we're too busy p%ssing away the spoils of a decent education bickering when we should be addressing the problem head on.
1) He is unwise to pin it down to a certain race, intentionally or otherwise, because it is disparate with the situation we're now in
2) His detractors are equally unwise to fixate on the specifics of his wording and not the message
Neither approach moves the deabate forward. It just gets it bogged down!
Gang culture is something that has spread to all races now; that much cannot be denied. Whilst the educated endlessly argue about terms and rhetoric, the uneducated continue to swell in ranks because we're too busy p%ssing away the spoils of a decent education bickering when we should be addressing the problem head on.
Last edited by New_scooby_04; 14 August 2011 at 02:58 PM.
14 August 2011, 03:14 PM
#50
But again, you have to remember that he is a historian and I dare say is correct in identifying the roots of gang culture. BUT
1) He is unwise to pin it down to a certain race, intentionally or otherwise, because it is disparate with the situation we're now in
2) His detractors are equally unwise to fixate on the specifics of his wording and not the message
Neither approach moves the deabate forward. It just gets it bogged down!
Gang culture is something that has spread to all races now; that much cannot be denied. Whilst the educated endlessly argue about terms and rhetoric, the uneducated continue to swell in ranks because we're too busy p%ssing away the spoils of a decent education bickering when we should be addressing the problem head on.
1) He is unwise to pin it down to a certain race, intentionally or otherwise, because it is disparate with the situation we're now in
2) His detractors are equally unwise to fixate on the specifics of his wording and not the message
Neither approach moves the deabate forward. It just gets it bogged down!
Gang culture is something that has spread to all races now; that much cannot be denied. Whilst the educated endlessly argue about terms and rhetoric, the uneducated continue to swell in ranks because we're too busy p%ssing away the spoils of a decent education bickering when we should be addressing the problem head on.
14 August 2011, 03:21 PM
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Why should the hard working, moral and educated help those that don't want to be helped? The dregs of society by and large choose to do what they do. By qualifying their misdemeanours under the umbrella of social deprivation is giving them licence to carry on. I want my hard earned taxes to go to people who want to better themselves and improve their lives. Education in this country is free if people fail to take advantage of it it's their/their parent's fault. As the saying goes you can't teach a pig to dance, it will only annoy the pig and frustrate you.
He could of course be a one off
just backs up your comments, oh and really boils my p1ss!
14 August 2011, 03:39 PM
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14 August 2011, 03:40 PM
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It's black gang culture, f1, and it's crap. The juxtaposition is black gospel culture which I'd say is incredibly positive (and an import that I welcome). The problem with everyone being terrified of proclaiming that the former is crap (for fear of team multi-culti demonising them) is that it spreads. Sacha Baron Cohen nailed-it about a decade ago. So, whilst I support the right of anyone to express themselves (legally), I'll also defend to the death my right to point out why they're deeply mis-guided to express themselves in that way. Political correctness isn't working.
14 August 2011, 03:46 PM
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Why should the hard working, moral and educated help those that don't want to be helped? The dregs of society by and large choose to do what they do. By qualifying their misdemeanours under the umbrella of social deprivation is giving them licence to carry on. I want my hard earned taxes to go to people who want to better themselves and improve their lives. Education in this country is free if people fail to take advantage of it it's their/their parent's fault. As the saying goes you can't teach a pig to dance, it will only annoy the pig and frustrate you.
The whole social deprivation things is largely a circular argument anyway. "I'm in the fringes because I'm deprived and I'm deprived because I'm in the fringes" I don't buy it in 99% of cases, people have a choice to better themselves; most just take the lazy way out and then blame other people for their ills!
14 August 2011, 03:46 PM
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14 August 2011, 03:46 PM
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It's black gang culture, f1, and it's crap. The juxtaposition is black gospel culture which I'd say is incredibly positive (and an import that I welcome). The problem with everyone being terrified of proclaiming that the former is crap (for fear of team multi-culti demonising them) is that it spreads. Sacha Baron Cohen nailed-it about a decade ago. So, whilst I support the right of anyone to express themselves (legally), I'll also defend to the death my right to point out why they're deeply mis-guided to express themselves in that way. Political correctness isn't working.
14 August 2011, 03:48 PM
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Agreed, to call it black gang culture is taking something away from black culture. Gangs are gangs, colour or culture have no bearing. IMO that is.
