David Starkey's comments on Newsnight.
16 August 2011, 02:11 PM
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Erm... Fail to see that excluding almost 50% of MPs is going to help the matter. We need both eyes open to deal with the problems, not an eye patch.
On some level this dominance/rap culture **** must work for at least some of the individuals concerned. That it strikes a chord with the youth is not surprising.
I agree with what Starkey said initially. As I see it, the "Problem", is that aspects of rap culture are massively commercially successful, therefore acceptable by inference.
My own fondly held theory is that the UK has lost its culture. A bit like searching for the identity of England within the UK. We(?!) just pick shiny, attractive bits of foreign cultures and ignore the unattractive bits. Result is probably amoral mongrels.
J.
On some level this dominance/rap culture **** must work for at least some of the individuals concerned. That it strikes a chord with the youth is not surprising.
I agree with what Starkey said initially. As I see it, the "Problem", is that aspects of rap culture are massively commercially successful, therefore acceptable by inference.
My own fondly held theory is that the UK has lost its culture. A bit like searching for the identity of England within the UK. We(?!) just pick shiny, attractive bits of foreign cultures and ignore the unattractive bits. Result is probably amoral mongrels.
J.
16 August 2011, 02:26 PM
#92
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wasn't his most "offensive" point, the one that suggests any sort of aspiration is purely a "white" phenomenom
i.e. David Lammy (who rightly is a ****) is successful and aspirational and so sounds "white"
the seems like a pretty sweeping statement and takes a swipe at most of the worlds non white population
i.e. David Lammy (who rightly is a ****) is successful and aspirational and so sounds "white"
the seems like a pretty sweeping statement and takes a swipe at most of the worlds non white population
16 August 2011, 02:29 PM
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If you look at it anthropologically, this 'black gang culture' and it's the surfaces/styles...the patois and clothes etc is obviously quite vital in a low kind of way. Kids would only 'convert' to it to fit it IMHO, to 'join the winning team'. If you fit in you don't get bullied etc, people don't mess with you if you ape something which is 'tough' and 'mean'....you might know some bigger kids who are 'bad-asses' etc.
16 August 2011, 02:34 PM
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wasn't his most "offensive" point, the one that suggests any sort of aspiration is purely a "white" phenomenom
i.e. David Lammy (who rightly is a ****) is successful and aspirational and so sounds "white"
the seems like a pretty sweeping statement and takes a swipe at most of the worlds non white population
i.e. David Lammy (who rightly is a ****) is successful and aspirational and so sounds "white"
the seems like a pretty sweeping statement and takes a swipe at most of the worlds non white population
16 August 2011, 02:35 PM
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wasn't his most "offensive" point, the one that suggests any sort of aspiration is purely a "white" phenomenom
i.e. David Lammy (who rightly is a ****) is successful and aspirational and so sounds "white"
the seems like a pretty sweeping statement and takes a swipe at most of the worlds non white population
i.e. David Lammy (who rightly is a ****) is successful and aspirational and so sounds "white"
the seems like a pretty sweeping statement and takes a swipe at most of the worlds non white population
He doesn't talk with a patois, wear baggy jeans, shout instead of talk etc. He's is articulate and his language is conventional, he dress is conventional.
Starkey's statement was 'reductive' and needs to be seen in context. IMHO he threw our unspoken understanding of social norms back at us by using 'black' 'white' etc. You know what it means, I know what it means...but to admit as such is 'wrongthink'.
He's not a racist using biology to explain anything, that much is obvious from what he said....or didn't.
16 August 2011, 02:38 PM
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If Starkey (or anyone) vilifies or criticises some black people, it's like 'oh you can't say that because it's a generalisation', 'don't you know that some black people are nice'!
Same for single mothers or any 'group'.
In this way debate is shutdown.
16 August 2011, 02:54 PM
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What is it with the liberal left? It's like a grand inquisition for 'racist thoughts'!
If Starkey (or anyone) vilifies or criticises some black people, it's like 'oh you can't say that because it's a generalisation', 'don't you know that some black people are nice'!
Same for single mothers or any 'group'.
In this way debate is shutdown.
If Starkey (or anyone) vilifies or criticises some black people, it's like 'oh you can't say that because it's a generalisation', 'don't you know that some black people are nice'!
Same for single mothers or any 'group'.
In this way debate is shutdown.
That is all I have ever said in this trhead from the start!
The equivakent would be referring to football hooliganism as white culture when most white people wouldn't dream of getting involved in it.
Last edited by f1_fan; 16 August 2011 at 02:57 PM.
16 August 2011, 03:00 PM
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Not at all. I am quite happy for him to criticise gang culture/some black people, my problem comes when he refers to it as black cultre full stop (1.58 in on the YT vid for instance) when it is just a small part of black culture (and now white culture too it would seem).
That is all I have ever said in this trhead from the start!
The equivakent would be referring to football hooliganism as white culture when most white people wouldn't dream of getting involved in it.
That is all I have ever said in this trhead from the start!
The equivakent would be referring to football hooliganism as white culture when most white people wouldn't dream of getting involved in it.
If I said Audi was part of 'car culture' would you vilify me?
16 August 2011, 03:37 PM
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it also amuses me that posters have a go at Owen Jones -- when he as actually studied/researched the subject, and written on it
"Chavs: The Demonization of the Working Class"
now I am sure he does not get it all right, or even the majority of it
but fvck me I would have thought he knows at least as much as Starky, who may know a thing or to about the Tudors but his knowledge of modern day black/gang/whatever culture must only come from his crusing for **** amongst the highways and byways of Dalston
"Chavs: The Demonization of the Working Class"
now I am sure he does not get it all right, or even the majority of it
but fvck me I would have thought he knows at least as much as Starky, who may know a thing or to about the Tudors but his knowledge of modern day black/gang/whatever culture must only come from his crusing for **** amongst the highways and byways of Dalston
16 August 2011, 04:27 PM
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He qualifies it about 50 secs before and at 1:58 his emphasis is on the word 'culture' to show that that's being discussed and not specifically skin colour. And it is black culture being discussed, black gang culture. Go and file that with Minitrue.
16 August 2011, 04:59 PM
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Riots had nothing to do with what race you belonged to. It was simply a bunch of opportunistic highschool failures taking advantage of a situation in order to get a load of 'free' stuff.
It would be interesting to see the correlation between single parent families and kids who went rioting. If these kids were effectively taught right from wrong, and had it enforced upon them throughout their childhood, I dont think we would of had this problem.
If you could actually punnish children these days for doing wrong, and teachers were allow to effectively deal with problematic children, I think we would be in a lot bette shape.
I'm just waiting for the next money wasting scheme to be introuduced to solve this problem. We dont need schemes, we just need the ability to enforce rules, and dish out punnishement to those who break them.
It would be interesting to see the correlation between single parent families and kids who went rioting. If these kids were effectively taught right from wrong, and had it enforced upon them throughout their childhood, I dont think we would of had this problem.
If you could actually punnish children these days for doing wrong, and teachers were allow to effectively deal with problematic children, I think we would be in a lot bette shape.
I'm just waiting for the next money wasting scheme to be introuduced to solve this problem. We dont need schemes, we just need the ability to enforce rules, and dish out punnishement to those who break them.
16 August 2011, 05:38 PM
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So is black culture just about gangs then? Or is there a bit more to it than that?
16 August 2011, 05:39 PM
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Riots had nothing to do with what race you belonged to. It was simply a bunch of opportunistic highschool failures taking advantage of a situation in order to get a load of 'free' stuff.
It would be interesting to see the correlation between single parent families and kids who went rioting. If these kids were effectively taught right from wrong, and had it enforced upon them throughout their childhood, I dont think we would of had this problem.
If you could actually punnish children these days for doing wrong, and teachers were allow to effectively deal with problematic children, I think we would be in a lot bette shape.
I'm just waiting for the next money wasting scheme to be introuduced to solve this problem. We dont need schemes, we just need the ability to enforce rules, and dish out punnishement to those who break them.
It would be interesting to see the correlation between single parent families and kids who went rioting. If these kids were effectively taught right from wrong, and had it enforced upon them throughout their childhood, I dont think we would of had this problem.
If you could actually punnish children these days for doing wrong, and teachers were allow to effectively deal with problematic children, I think we would be in a lot bette shape.
I'm just waiting for the next money wasting scheme to be introuduced to solve this problem. We dont need schemes, we just need the ability to enforce rules, and dish out punnishement to those who break them.
16 August 2011, 05:58 PM
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He's right in the sense that David Lammy posses/exhibits cultural norms and conventions which are coincident with what you might normally assume to be 'white' in the UK.
He doesn't talk with a patois, wear baggy jeans, shout instead of talk etc. He's is articulate and his language is conventional, he dress is conventional.
Starkey's statement was 'reductive' and needs to be seen in context. IMHO he threw our unspoken understanding of social norms back at us by using 'black' 'white' etc. You know what it means, I know what it means...but to admit as such is 'wrongthink'.
He's not a racist using biology to explain anything, that much is obvious from what he said....or didn't.
He doesn't talk with a patois, wear baggy jeans, shout instead of talk etc. He's is articulate and his language is conventional, he dress is conventional.
Starkey's statement was 'reductive' and needs to be seen in context. IMHO he threw our unspoken understanding of social norms back at us by using 'black' 'white' etc. You know what it means, I know what it means...but to admit as such is 'wrongthink'.
He's not a racist using biology to explain anything, that much is obvious from what he said....or didn't.
17 August 2011, 09:09 AM
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He's talking about a black gang vulture which originates from Jamaica, it goes hand in hand with a patois linguistic style which is alien to the UK. It is homophobic, nihilistic, etc etc. He was saying that it mitigates against education, and also that white youths were adopting it.
It is a part of 'black culture' and it is also a black culture.
It is a part of 'black culture' and it is also a black culture.
17 August 2011, 09:20 AM
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17 August 2011, 09:41 AM
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FYI - I drove back through Croydon/Purley last night and counted 13 riot vans full of cops parked up or driving about.
17 August 2011, 09:52 AM
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i am not sure why F1 keeps banging on about 62% being over 18, the images from the rioting tell the story, if you look at the faces and the dress and the size of the looters it is obvious to all that they are young. 18 is not some magic cut off point 18-25 is still young and as you point out i would be interested to see how many where 18-25 as i would hazard an educated guess that is is a bulk of the rest of the looters. an educated guess due to the images shown.
FYI - I drove back through Croydon/Purley last night and counted 13 riot vans full of cops parked up or driving about.
FYI - I drove back through Croydon/Purley last night and counted 13 riot vans full of cops parked up or driving about.
17 August 2011, 09:52 AM
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I visit Croydion on a regular basis, from experience a high number of the population are black.
I take my mum shopping when i visit her in Croydon, walking past a primary school i was surprised by the number of black children compared to my kids primary school in Northampton.
I counted the kids as i walked past - it was play time or whatever the PC term is for it now.
104 kids (roughly) of which 21 where white.
Not being racist but it puts the population of that borough into some perspective.
I take my mum shopping when i visit her in Croydon, walking past a primary school i was surprised by the number of black children compared to my kids primary school in Northampton.
I counted the kids as i walked past - it was play time or whatever the PC term is for it now.
104 kids (roughly) of which 21 where white.
Not being racist but it puts the population of that borough into some perspective.
Last edited by Kieran_Burns; 17 August 2011 at 01:42 PM. Reason: removing quote
17 August 2011, 09:56 AM
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Not too sure white kids are more politically motivated than black kids, kids are kids surely. If you look at the shops looted it smacks of thievery and just plain theft and nothing to do with politics - it was about showing the police and people that they can do what they want when they want and a bonus of stealing the stuff they could not be bothered to work for or save for.
17 August 2011, 10:01 AM
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Not too sure white kids are more politically motivated than black kids, kids are kids surely. If you look at the shops looted it smacks of thievery and just plain theft and nothing to do with politics - it was about showing the police and people that they can do what they want when they want and a bonus of stealing the stuff they could not be bothered to work for or save for.
17 August 2011, 11:38 AM
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So Camorons at fault for the last 13 years of Labour and the social economic conditions is he, is he solely responsible for the financial problems of this country and the disenfranchising of the yoof of today, last time i looked i am pretty sure he wasn't!
17 August 2011, 01:41 PM
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Of course the riots were politically motivated, only a supporter of Cameron and his f**kwits would blame it on pakis, *******, kids or whatever
Last edited by f1_fan; 17 August 2011 at 01:42 PM.
17 August 2011, 03:11 PM
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Organise a demonstrations down in London or next time Camoron visits Manchester, etc. 10's of thousands out on the street showing solidarity and their opposition, not rioting and thieving from the very shops you walk past every day!
the riots where nothing to do with politics and all to do with saying "**** you" to the police and taking what you could carry! nothing justifies that!
Last edited by The Zohan; 17 August 2011 at 03:13 PM.
17 August 2011, 03:21 PM
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He's talking about a black gang vulture which originates from Jamaica, it goes hand in hand with a patois linguistic style which is alien to the UK. It is homophobic, nihilistic, etc etc. He was saying that it mitigates against education, and also that white youths were adopting it.
It is a part of 'black culture' and it is also a black culture.
It is a part of 'black culture' and it is also a black culture.
les
17 August 2011, 04:35 PM
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So that justifies looting , destroying and terrorising your/their/our local communities?
Organise a demonstrations down in London or next time Camoron visits Manchester, etc. 10's of thousands out on the street showing solidarity and their opposition, not rioting and thieving from the very shops you walk past every day!
the riots where nothing to do with politics and all to do with saying "**** you" to the police and taking what you could carry! nothing justifies that!
Organise a demonstrations down in London or next time Camoron visits Manchester, etc. 10's of thousands out on the street showing solidarity and their opposition, not rioting and thieving from the very shops you walk past every day!
the riots where nothing to do with politics and all to do with saying "**** you" to the police and taking what you could carry! nothing justifies that!
Huge difference between identifiying the causes and justifying the actions. Pity you like so many others just assume that because one or two of us tell it like it is rather than clinging to the notion that Cameron has any more clue then the previous incumbents you then start trotting out the tired old 'so does the justify looting blah blah blah....'.
It had everything to do with the state of the country and the fact you and so many others don't see it is because you don't f**king want to!!!
Maybe you need to cling to the notion that Cameron is great and everything was Labour's fault so you can sleep better or something. Newsflash - the UK was in a **** state under Labour and is and will be in just as **** state under the Tories. They are politicians who only care about themselves. They do not care about you or I or anyone else.
Sorry if that bursts your bubble, have a nice day!
17 August 2011, 04:41 PM
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