David Starkey's comments on Newsnight.
21 August 2011, 02:15 PM
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At first I thought that Cameron was being badly restricted in his actions etc. by the Lib Dems in their coalition.
I am now beginning to wonder whether he is in fact so bound up with following whatever he is ordered to do with the Eu tell him to that it would make no difference if the coalition had not been necessary.
I think he has the same secret agenda as most of the politicians of all colours who are looking to their vastly improved personal situation should the Eu manage to achieve full federation. That would be a disaster for our traditional way of life in this country.
Les
I am now beginning to wonder whether he is in fact so bound up with following whatever he is ordered to do with the Eu tell him to that it would make no difference if the coalition had not been necessary.
I think he has the same secret agenda as most of the politicians of all colours who are looking to their vastly improved personal situation should the Eu manage to achieve full federation. That would be a disaster for our traditional way of life in this country.
Les
21 August 2011, 03:14 PM
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The pleasure is all mine
Don't forget to put your toys back in the pram!
seriously though; Given the comments i have put up with over the years i am surprised by your post and being put on your ignore list. NSR is about lively debates and some friendly needling - because that's all it was!
If i really offended you then my sincerest apologies as it was not meant to.
Last edited by The Zohan; 21 August 2011 at 03:19 PM.
21 August 2011, 03:56 PM
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I rate the man for having the b@lls to say what a lot of people are thinking.
Yes it might not be PC, yes it might be viewed as being racist but we need more of these people - calling a spade a spade.
Nothing more annoying than seeing white and asian kids buying into this whole hip-hop gangster culture - wearing their jeans halfway down their ****, using pattoir (spelling??) and thinking it's cool to be a pimp and a gangster! Makes my **** boil!
I've said it before and I'll say it again - ask an asian kid what he wants to be when he grows up and he'll say doctor, engineer etc - ask the same to a black kid and he'll say gangster!
I had a debate with somebody on Facebook of all places the other day who refused to believe the riots were down to race - for me, yes they were. Considering blacks only make up a fraction of our society it was strange how a large degree of the rioters were black! The 'community leaders' need to accept there are inherent issues within their society rather than blame it on police, disaffection, no jobs etc etc.
Rant over
Yes it might not be PC, yes it might be viewed as being racist but we need more of these people - calling a spade a spade.
Nothing more annoying than seeing white and asian kids buying into this whole hip-hop gangster culture - wearing their jeans halfway down their ****, using pattoir (spelling??) and thinking it's cool to be a pimp and a gangster! Makes my **** boil!
I've said it before and I'll say it again - ask an asian kid what he wants to be when he grows up and he'll say doctor, engineer etc - ask the same to a black kid and he'll say gangster!
I had a debate with somebody on Facebook of all places the other day who refused to believe the riots were down to race - for me, yes they were. Considering blacks only make up a fraction of our society it was strange how a large degree of the rioters were black! The 'community leaders' need to accept there are inherent issues within their society rather than blame it on police, disaffection, no jobs etc etc.
Rant over
I have 3 daughters (black) ages 16,15 and 13 aspiring to become a chartered accountant, world class athlete and a teacher respectively. My son is too young to comment on his aspirations at the age of two, perhaps he might eventually prove your generalistic statement to be true...
You almost had me agreeing with you upto a point there until that remark!!
21 August 2011, 04:00 PM
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Really...??
I have 3 daughters (black) ages 16,15 and 13 aspiring to become a chartered accountant, world class athlete and a teacher respectively. My son is too young to comment on his aspirations at the age of two, perhaps he might eventually prove your generalistic statement to be true...
You almost had me agreeing with you upto a point there until that remark!!
I have 3 daughters (black) ages 16,15 and 13 aspiring to become a chartered accountant, world class athlete and a teacher respectively. My son is too young to comment on his aspirations at the age of two, perhaps he might eventually prove your generalistic statement to be true...
You almost had me agreeing with you upto a point there until that remark!!
Good on you! my eldest (8) wants to be a vet which would be a great career and will support her with whatever she wants to do, as or the youngest, it changes from day to day.
I really believe it is down to parenting and not colour, it is easy for anyone to have low or no aspirations, parents should push their kids to be the best they can and help them as much as is possible irrespective of colour or beliefs. Plenty of people from 'poor' backgrounds go on to do good and great things!
it does not mean you have to give up, accept your situation and turn to crime, blaming everybody but yourself.
Last edited by The Zohan; 21 August 2011 at 04:03 PM.
21 August 2011, 04:35 PM
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The pleasure is all mine Don't forget to put your toys back in the pram!
seriously though; Given the comments i have put up with over the years i am surprised by your post and being put on your ignore list. NSR is about lively debates and some friendly needling - because that's all it was!
If i really offended you then my sincerest apologies as it was not meant to.
Don't forget to put your toys back in the pram!seriously though; Given the comments i have put up with over the years i am surprised by your post and being put on your ignore list. NSR is about lively debates and some friendly needling - because that's all it was!
If i really offended you then my sincerest apologies as it was not meant to.
21 August 2011, 04:53 PM
#156
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Good on you! my eldest (8) wants to be a vet which would be a great career and will support her with whatever she wants to do, as or the youngest, it changes from day to day.
I really believe it is down to parenting and not colour, it is easy for anyone to have low or no aspirations, parents should push their kids to be the best they can and help them as much as is possible irrespective of colour or beliefs. Plenty of people from 'poor' backgrounds go on to do good and great things! it does not mean you have to give up, accept your situation and turn to crime, blaming everybody but yourself.
I really believe it is down to parenting and not colour, it is easy for anyone to have low or no aspirations, parents should push their kids to be the best they can and help them as much as is possible irrespective of colour or beliefs. Plenty of people from 'poor' backgrounds go on to do good and great things!
it does not mean you have to give up, accept your situation and turn to crime, blaming everybody but yourself.The problem is that kids are having kids of their own without knowing what they wanted for themselves, let alone knowing what they want, or should want their own kids thus resulting in another generation of misguided youths.
The day some bright spark decided that kids can now go and buy contraceptive pills over the counter without requiring parental consent it all became screwed!!
This is happening to children of all colours and races.
My other issue is that we have footballers earning rediculous amounts of ££ living in completely materialistc worlds. These kids, many of them who are black and come from the poorer areas of the country can't relate to that sort of income, but it's everywhere, in the media there are these celebs driving around in their super-cars and blinging jewellery and they want it too. Now, my kids see the this too, but I inspire my kids to work towards achievable goals, however the kids we've been seeing in the media lately are not receiving the same sort of parenting as most of their parents are incapable of doing so.
21 August 2011, 04:55 PM
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Really...??
I have 3 daughters (black) ages 16,15 and 13 aspiring to become a chartered accountant, world class athlete and a teacher respectively. My son is too young to comment on his aspirations at the age of two, perhaps he might eventually prove your generalistic statement to be true...
You almost had me agreeing with you upto a point there until that remark!!
I have 3 daughters (black) ages 16,15 and 13 aspiring to become a chartered accountant, world class athlete and a teacher respectively. My son is too young to comment on his aspirations at the age of two, perhaps he might eventually prove your generalistic statement to be true...
You almost had me agreeing with you upto a point there until that remark!!
21 August 2011, 05:05 PM
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Just because your daughters are black and seemingly aspire to middle-class roles in society, does not refute this idea that a certain low, nihilistic, 'black culture' originating from Jamaica and being defined by a patois lingua is taking hold within the underclass of our society.
It makes me wonder how many black & asian kids were asked this in person before posting that response??? Where's the validation??
21 August 2011, 05:10 PM
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... Anyway whether some people agree with some of what he says or not doesn't change my opinion that his ramblings are a mass of contradictory prejudice driven nonsense. I have pointed out several examples of that in this thread and maybe you should watch the other video posted here with an open mind .... if indeed you could actually manage that 
Your argument here is quite telling on the question of whether you've actually understood at all what Starkey is driving at though, since it clearly relies on a number of misinterpretations on your part. For one, Starkey didn't once try to deny the fact that it was in large part whites who were involved in the riots. Second, he made it very clear that it was the borrowing or adoption of one specific foreign culture by those whites which had caused the riots to spread so quickly, not immigrant cultures in general. Third, as expanded upon in his Telegraph article, it's the decades-long process of forcibly expunging a national identity among parts of the white working class which has led to them soaking up so easily the afore-mentioned culture. On that last point, I don't believe for one minute anyone would deny that the notion of Welshness, Scottishness, Geordieness or Yorkshireness are infinitely more powerful and recognizable both to the people who live there and outsiders than are 'Croydonness', 'Salfordness', or any other -ness associated with places where riots did break out, and this fact alone blows your argument right out of the water.
Last edited by markjmd; 21 August 2011 at 05:12 PM.
21 August 2011, 05:29 PM
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I was not desputing that element... the point I objected to was "ask an asian kid what he wants to be when he grows up and he'll say doctor, engineer etc - ask the same to a black kid and he'll say gangster"
It makes me wonder how many black & asian kids were asked this in person before posting that response??? Where's the validation??
It makes me wonder how many black & asian kids were asked this in person before posting that response??? Where's the validation??
21 August 2011, 05:41 PM
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21 August 2011, 05:42 PM
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A generalisation is not necessarily a license to be prejudiced.
And give it a rest about 'up stream' rubbish. This is not 1970 anymore. The POTUS is black FFS.
21 August 2011, 06:09 PM
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Exactly that mate, the way I look at it is that kids didn't ask to be born, we as parents brought them into the world and therefore we should make sure we drive them and educate them to be the best that they can be.
The problem is that kids are having kids of their own without knowing what they wanted for themselves, let alone knowing what they want, or should want their own kids thus resulting in another generation of misguided youths.
The day some bright spark decided that kids can now go and buy contraceptive pills over the counter without requiring parental consent it all became screwed!!
This is happening to children of all colours and races.
My other issue is that we have footballers earning rediculous amounts of ££ living in completely materialistc worlds. These kids, many of them who are black and come from the poorer areas of the country can't relate to that sort of income, but it's everywhere, in the media there are these celebs driving around in their super-cars and blinging jewellery and they want it too. Now, my kids see the this too, but I inspire my kids to work towards achievable goals, however the kids we've been seeing in the media lately are not receiving the same sort of parenting as most of their parents are incapable of doing so.
The problem is that kids are having kids of their own without knowing what they wanted for themselves, let alone knowing what they want, or should want their own kids thus resulting in another generation of misguided youths.
The day some bright spark decided that kids can now go and buy contraceptive pills over the counter without requiring parental consent it all became screwed!!
This is happening to children of all colours and races.
My other issue is that we have footballers earning rediculous amounts of ££ living in completely materialistc worlds. These kids, many of them who are black and come from the poorer areas of the country can't relate to that sort of income, but it's everywhere, in the media there are these celebs driving around in their super-cars and blinging jewellery and they want it too. Now, my kids see the this too, but I inspire my kids to work towards achievable goals, however the kids we've been seeing in the media lately are not receiving the same sort of parenting as most of their parents are incapable of doing so.
21 August 2011, 06:13 PM
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21 August 2011, 06:18 PM
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Ben Douglas
Yer, right.... a real role model for the young black gangsta's
21 August 2011, 06:26 PM
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The point that seems to be missed (by some anyway) and Starkey made it badly is that to succeed in the traditional sense you need to fit in and get on and have the drive and determination to make something of yourself.
No everybody is going to be the next X factor winner, soap star, footballer, or music sensation and if that fails then you have two options, do what most people do which is to work hard at the stuff the rest of us do - the other jobs that pay, or to drop out of the normal society and possibly turn to crime.
we are not all going to have the job of our dreams but it does not mean we give up and take the 'easy options'.
If you give up at school then things are a lot harder because you will struggle to compete against those that do work, do try, do aspire to be more! Parents again need to get behind their kids and if needs be push them!
Last edited by The Zohan; 21 August 2011 at 06:30 PM.
21 August 2011, 06:28 PM
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You are railing against materialism, yet otoh you are teaching your kids that their virtue and 'worthiness' of being loved is defined by their future economic role.
21 August 2011, 08:08 PM
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So far as I can make out, you've only pointed out one, which was your claim that he was mistaken in stating that it was thanks to their "strong national or regional identity" that Wales, Scotland, Yorkshire, and the North-East managed to escape the riots, your basis for that claim being that numerous towns in Yorkshire have significant Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi immigrant populations.
For one, Starkey didn't once try to deny the fact that it was in large part whites who were involved in the riots. Second, he made it very clear that it was the borrowing or adoption of one specific foreign culture by those whites which had caused the riots to spread so quickly, not immigrant cultures in general.
Third, as expanded upon in his Telegraph article, it's the decades-long process of forcibly expunging a national identity among parts of the white working class which has led to them soaking up so easily the afore-mentioned culture. On that last point, I don't believe for one minute anyone would deny that the notion of Welshness, Scottishness, Geordieness or Yorkshireness are infinitely more powerful and recognizable both to the people who live there and outsiders than are 'Croydonness', 'Salfordness', or any other -ness associated with places where riots did break out, and this fact alone blows your argument right out of the water.
Starkey just took the opportunity to have a thinly veiled dig at blacks in general. End of!
21 August 2011, 09:05 PM
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Well I can tell you don't know anything about Manchester then. Mancunians are as proud of being from Manchester as anyone is about being from Yorkshire or the NE etc. Sorry, but that whole argment is utter bollocks and deep down you know it. The rioters in Manchester weren't from any gang culture,... in fact they are probablyinfluenced more by Liam Gallagher than any Jamaican gang culture LOL!
Starkey just took the opportunity to have a thinly veiled dig at blacks in general. End of!
Starkey just took the opportunity to have a thinly veiled dig at blacks in general. End of!
How many more times do you need to be told Starkey specifically said the issues is cultural not about race per se (I am paraphrasing).
....and no I do not bothered with Mus' video 'responses'. Any fool can watch a youtube video and post it on here. Don't forget Mus is the man who learned about the 'truth' of 9/11 from youtube videos!
21 August 2011, 09:24 PM
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Look as much as you and your fellow cohorts on here might want the riots to be all about race and nothing else.... the reality is that is only a part of the reason behind them. To think otherwise is at best naive and at worst not exactly going to lead to any solution any time soon.
21 August 2011, 09:26 PM
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Tony, I KNOW the rioters were not proud Mancunians, but the point being made is that these riots did not happen in places with a significant cultural identity. Markwhateverhisnameis said that Manchester isn't tlike that.... I am putting him right.
And how many more times do you need to be told that although he did initially he then contradicts himself several times
Then you are not really in a position to opine my post as not being worthy if I haven't read the article (even though I had as it happens).
Look as much as you and your fellow cohorts on here might want the riots to be all about race and nothing else.... the reality is that is only a part of the reason behind them. To think otherwise is at best naive and at worst not exactly going to lead to any solution any time soon.
And how many more times do you need to be told that although he did initially he then contradicts himself several times
Then you are not really in a position to opine my post as not being worthy if I haven't read the article (even though I had as it happens).
Look as much as you and your fellow cohorts on here might want the riots to be all about race and nothing else.... the reality is that is only a part of the reason behind them. To think otherwise is at best naive and at worst not exactly going to lead to any solution any time soon.
21 August 2011, 09:40 PM
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Think your link is a bit messed up Mus. This link works:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tacNkKjxPA
As for the video I couldn't agree with him more. His comments at the start on Starkey's rant are exactly what I feel about it and said as much at the start of this thread. Good post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tacNkKjxPA
As for the video I couldn't agree with him more. His comments at the start on Starkey's rant are exactly what I feel about it and said as much at the start of this thread. Good post
21 August 2011, 09:46 PM
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Just because your daughters are black and seemingly aspire to middle-class roles in society, does not refute this idea that a certain low, nihilistic, 'black culture' originating from Jamaica and being defined by a patois lingua is taking hold within the underclass of our society.
as a liverpool fan I go to liverpool a lot and a lot of them kids there don't talk patoir so don't blame jamicans for that.
21 August 2011, 10:40 PM
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21 August 2011, 11:06 PM
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...and yeah someone called me 'blud' the other day and he wasn't black.