McRae at Fault for Helicopter crash
08 September 2011, 10:08 AM
#151
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No need to apologise, everybody's opinion is valid. I think it would be a deluded person who would suggest that a bloke who drove a car so aggressively fast would pilot a helicopter, especially with kids to impress, in a completely serene and banal fashion. He just went beyond his ability trying to show off. To me it's clear cut.
08 September 2011, 10:16 AM
#152
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I still believe the fact he wasn't "legal to crash" wasn't a contributing factor. Unfortunately the media haven't seen it that way and its a shame thats going to cast a shadow over his death.
08 September 2011, 11:20 AM
#153
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The Scottish McRae worshippers are out in force I see getting all upset if anyone dares to criticise their hero 
He was a talented rally driver but from the reports a ******* idiot of a pilot with no sense of responsibility when in charge of his own Son let alone other people.
From the onboard video footage descibed by the investigation he carried out low level flying in a dangerous area when not licensed or trained to do so. If he wanted to take those risks on his own then that would be selfish enough but to do it with his own kid let alone anyone elses onboard then the bloke was an utter tw@t.
He was a talented rally driver but from the reports a ******* idiot of a pilot with no sense of responsibility when in charge of his own Son let alone other people.From the onboard video footage descibed by the investigation he carried out low level flying in a dangerous area when not licensed or trained to do so. If he wanted to take those risks on his own then that would be selfish enough but to do it with his own kid let alone anyone elses onboard then the bloke was an utter tw@t.
08 September 2011, 12:00 PM
#155
Pontificating
A good exciting, ballsy entertaining Rally driver that took Subaru to the public, me included, loved the guy loved rallying sucked in wholly eventually shelling out 22K on a brand new 98 turbo, the Mansell of the Rally world, but certainly not the best driver we have seen in a Rally car.
The clouded hero worship is quite sad to read in some of the posts.
Too low and too fast and flew like an idiot, end of, guilty, accept it and stop sycophantly defending him FFS
The clouded hero worship is quite sad to read in some of the posts.
Too low and too fast and flew like an idiot, end of, guilty, accept it and stop sycophantly defending him FFS
08 September 2011, 12:05 PM
#156
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When you say that you think jack stall was "the most likely cause for the strange deviation out of the other possible causes given" you are implying (to me) that jack stall can occur at any point in the flight and thats what caused the crash.
Jack stall is a condition that occurs as a consequence of pilot input; it doesn't just crop up at random. The aircraft must be flown at speed and in an aggressive fashion in order to meet the criteria for jack stall to occur; it doesn't just suddenly kick in when the aircraft is flying straight and level.
Based on what we do know about the crash - or rather the way the aircraft was being flown just prior to the crash (specifically the comments made with regards to the onboard video and the eyewitness reports) - it does seem that McRae was flying his aircraft with many of the conditions present for servo transparancy to occur: i.e. high speed and engaging in high-G maneuvers (and at low level).
Jack stall is a recoverable condition if the pilot is aware of the onset of the condition and has sufficient space (i.e. altitude) to correct it.
Jack stall is a condition that occurs as a consequence of pilot input; it doesn't just crop up at random. The aircraft must be flown at speed and in an aggressive fashion in order to meet the criteria for jack stall to occur; it doesn't just suddenly kick in when the aircraft is flying straight and level.
Based on what we do know about the crash - or rather the way the aircraft was being flown just prior to the crash (specifically the comments made with regards to the onboard video and the eyewitness reports) - it does seem that McRae was flying his aircraft with many of the conditions present for servo transparancy to occur: i.e. high speed and engaging in high-G maneuvers (and at low level).
Jack stall is a recoverable condition if the pilot is aware of the onset of the condition and has sufficient space (i.e. altitude) to correct it.
Are you saying that in this case he tried to pull up using the cyclic and in doing so caused a large increase of the blades angle of attack as it passed the front and hence a high speed stall, or coarse use of the collective which caused the blade rpm to decrease below its safe speed, or simply loss of control of the swash plate due to too large a demand from the flying controls due to it being too much for the control system to cope with. I presume the swash plate is hydraulically controlled in his helicopter.
Its an interesting theory anyway.
Trying to impress with a display of very low flying when you are not used to doing it can of course be very dangerous and can easily lead to a situation where overcontrolling is likely when trying to save the situation you have got yourself into.
Low flying in itself does not have to be extremely dangerous as long as you have been properly trained and have learned your own limits and very importantly the aircraft limits of its performance in all respects.
Les
08 September 2011, 01:35 PM
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08 September 2011, 03:11 PM
#158
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In all my time I have never heard of the term "jack stall" Do you mean a high speed stall where the angle of attack has been increased to where flow breakaway occurs? In such a case decrease of the angle of attack will stop the stall with a minimum loss of height. Is it a term associated with helicopters?
It has nothing to do with loss of lift, but rather loss of control. It is indeed a term unique to helicopters and is a condition that is achievable in specific helicopters with a single hydraulic system.
In aircraft such as the AS350 (the aircraft McRae owned), due to the direction of rotation of the main rotor blades the right main rotor servo is the one subject to greatest aerodynamic forces. Excessive (i.e High-G) manoeuvring (coupled with other factors, such as airspeed and load) can causes these aerodynamic forces to become so great that they overwhelm the hydraulic force supplied by the servo. As a consequence, the excess force feeds back into the pilots controls.
The solution to the condition is to immediately cease the manoeuvre that has caused the onset of servo transparency and the natural reaction of the system will restore control to the aircraft; but this is on the assumption that the pilot has both recognised the condition and has sufficient space (i.e altitude) to allow the aircraft to recover. Pilots who are not aware of the condition may mistake it for seized controls and act in the wrong fashion, or over correct and, when control is restored, end up rolling the aircraft the other way.
NB: That pprune thread is a little confusing in that some posters are describing "Jack stall" and others are describing retreating blade stall: two different things!
Last edited by tbtstt; 08 September 2011 at 03:14 PM.
08 September 2011, 03:18 PM
#159
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The Scottish McRae worshippers are out in force I see getting all upset if anyone dares to criticise their hero He was a talented rally driver but from the reports a ******* idiot of a pilot with no sense of responsibility when in charge of his own Son let alone other people.
From the onboard video footage descibed by the investigation he carried out low level flying in a dangerous area when not licensed or trained to do so. If he wanted to take those risks on his own then that would be selfish enough but to do it with his own kid let alone anyone elses onboard then the bloke was an utter tw@t.
He was a talented rally driver but from the reports a ******* idiot of a pilot with no sense of responsibility when in charge of his own Son let alone other people.From the onboard video footage descibed by the investigation he carried out low level flying in a dangerous area when not licensed or trained to do so. If he wanted to take those risks on his own then that would be selfish enough but to do it with his own kid let alone anyone elses onboard then the bloke was an utter tw@t.
I'm just making the point that he was not technically (and therefore legally) blamed for the crash in the Sheriff's report.
But then I wouldn't expect the media, or the average scoobynetter, to appreciate the relevance of that, particularly with regard to claims (specifically the basis for such claims) against his estate for compensation.
Whilst he may well have been flying like an utter ****, the point remains that the cause was an "unknown event" despite the assertions of many on here to the contrary, and the apparent manner in which he was flying before the crash. I say apparent because I've not seen the video, nor I suspect has anyone on here. Until we do, we are merely speculating as to whether the manoeuvers were contributory to the crash.
That's not my opinion, thats the opinion in law.
08 September 2011, 03:36 PM
#160
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Not at all
I'm just making the point that he was not technically (and therefore legally) blamed for the crash in the Sheriff's report.
But then I wouldn't expect the media, or the average scoobynetter, to appreciate the relevance of that, particularly with regard to claims (specifically the basis for such claims) against his estate for compensation.
Whilst he may well have been flying like an utter ****, the point remains that the cause was an "unknown event" despite the assertions of many on here to the contrary, and the apparent manner in which he was flying before the crash. I say apparent because I've not seen the video, nor I suspect has anyone on here. Until we do, we are merely speculating as to whether the manoeuvers were contributory to the crash.
That's not my opinion, thats the opinion in law.
I'm just making the point that he was not technically (and therefore legally) blamed for the crash in the Sheriff's report.
But then I wouldn't expect the media, or the average scoobynetter, to appreciate the relevance of that, particularly with regard to claims (specifically the basis for such claims) against his estate for compensation.
Whilst he may well have been flying like an utter ****, the point remains that the cause was an "unknown event" despite the assertions of many on here to the contrary, and the apparent manner in which he was flying before the crash. I say apparent because I've not seen the video, nor I suspect has anyone on here. Until we do, we are merely speculating as to whether the manoeuvers were contributory to the crash.
That's not my opinion, thats the opinion in law.
And I don't dispute what you are saying in terms of blame. The fact remains though he was still a tw@t for flying in that manner in the first place with children aboard and without the necessary legal documentation.
09 September 2011, 04:39 PM
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"Jack stall" is a bit of a stupid term as its rather deceptive. Its a pilots term really; the correct description for the condition is "servo transparency" or "servo reversibility". It would be a lot easier if pilots used the correct terms, but they like big words simplified.
It has nothing to do with loss of lift, but rather loss of control. It is indeed a term unique to helicopters and is a condition that is achievable in specific helicopters with a single hydraulic system.
In aircraft such as the AS350 (the aircraft McRae owned), due to the direction of rotation of the main rotor blades the right main rotor servo is the one subject to greatest aerodynamic forces. Excessive (i.e High-G) manoeuvring (coupled with other factors, such as airspeed and load) can causes these aerodynamic forces to become so great that they overwhelm the hydraulic force supplied by the servo. As a consequence, the excess force feeds back into the pilots controls.
The solution to the condition is to immediately cease the manoeuvre that has caused the onset of servo transparency and the natural reaction of the system will restore control to the aircraft; but this is on the assumption that the pilot has both recognised the condition and has sufficient space (i.e altitude) to allow the aircraft to recover. Pilots who are not aware of the condition may mistake it for seized controls and act in the wrong fashion, or over correct and, when control is restored, end up rolling the aircraft the other way.
NB: That pprune thread is a little confusing in that some posters are describing "Jack stall" and others are describing retreating blade stall: two different things!
It has nothing to do with loss of lift, but rather loss of control. It is indeed a term unique to helicopters and is a condition that is achievable in specific helicopters with a single hydraulic system.
In aircraft such as the AS350 (the aircraft McRae owned), due to the direction of rotation of the main rotor blades the right main rotor servo is the one subject to greatest aerodynamic forces. Excessive (i.e High-G) manoeuvring (coupled with other factors, such as airspeed and load) can causes these aerodynamic forces to become so great that they overwhelm the hydraulic force supplied by the servo. As a consequence, the excess force feeds back into the pilots controls.
The solution to the condition is to immediately cease the manoeuvre that has caused the onset of servo transparency and the natural reaction of the system will restore control to the aircraft; but this is on the assumption that the pilot has both recognised the condition and has sufficient space (i.e altitude) to allow the aircraft to recover. Pilots who are not aware of the condition may mistake it for seized controls and act in the wrong fashion, or over correct and, when control is restored, end up rolling the aircraft the other way.
NB: That pprune thread is a little confusing in that some posters are describing "Jack stall" and others are describing retreating blade stall: two different things!
I did fly a helicopter unofficially in my time and was able to hover and land it, but all very unofficial and was not privy to terms such as "Jack Stall" anyway. The ones I flew were the original Whirlwind with the Alvis Leonides engine and the original Wessex which was single engined. No significant computerised help as you can imagine, but all good fun. I did try to get an official course but they said they did not need an extra chopper pilot so would I therefore please wind my neck in and stick to what I was actually there for!
Anyway, it looks as though McCrae put himself in an unrecoverable situation quite likely due to the controls being incapable of supplying the required effort to get out of it as you said. So easy to do when being a bit wild at low levels and when you are inexperienced at the job.
Les
09 September 2011, 04:50 PM
#162
Jack stall on pprune.
Confirms my theory that pilots are a bit **** and should be, otherwise we end up with Helcopter sized dents in hillsides.
09 September 2011, 05:51 PM
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I did fly a helicopter unofficially in my time and was able to hover and land it, but all very unofficial and was not privy to terms such as "Jack Stall" anyway. The ones I flew were the original Whirlwind with the Alvis Leonides engine and the original Wessex which was single engined. No significant computerised help as you can imagine, but all good fun. I did try to get an official course but they said they did not need an extra chopper pilot so would I therefore please wind my neck in and stick to what I was actually there for!
Oh well, if you don't ask......I'm not experienced with a vast number of types, but I've only heard the "servo transparency" issue associated with a small number of Aerospatiale/Eurocopter single engine types (specifically the AS341/AS342, AS350 and early AS355). It seems most commonly linked with the AS350 though, I guess because thats the most common of the types on the shortlist these days.
Had a nose around a Wessex not so long ago: absolute beast of an aircraft. Seems like something from the Victorian era when compared to the featherweight aircraft we have today!
Anyway, it looks as though McCrae put himself in an unrecoverable situation quite likely due to the controls being incapable of supplying the required effort to get out of it as you said. So easy to do when being a bit wild at low levels and when you are inexperienced at the job.
10 September 2011, 12:05 PM
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Yes the original Wessex was a bit of a beast as you say. I must say I enjoyed the challenge, the chopper pilots we had were very friendly and helpful and were only too happy to let you have a go.
In that particular job we were using Ministry of Aviation aircraft and they always seemed to get their hands on the most original and oldest aircraft possible for the job. ( I should have said cheapest!) It actually made it more interesting so no one complained anyway.
Les
In that particular job we were using Ministry of Aviation aircraft and they always seemed to get their hands on the most original and oldest aircraft possible for the job. ( I should have said cheapest!) It actually made it more interesting so no one complained anyway.
Les
10 September 2011, 02:22 PM
#165
Les, quick question
In Aviation why don't they have a digital card as a pilots licence, similar to the new HGV digital tacho cards. Before any kind of flight whether that be in a helicopter or plane you insert the card into a digital card reader then if your pilots licence has expired or you havn't flew the necessary hours it won't let you proceed by disabling the electroncs required to start up the aircraft.
I'm sure Colin McRae won't be the first or the last pilot to fly on an expired pilots licence.
You could programme the digital card/licence and the card reader to what ever information is required like minimum flying hours, pilot licence expiry date etc etc
In Aviation why don't they have a digital card as a pilots licence, similar to the new HGV digital tacho cards. Before any kind of flight whether that be in a helicopter or plane you insert the card into a digital card reader then if your pilots licence has expired or you havn't flew the necessary hours it won't let you proceed by disabling the electroncs required to start up the aircraft.
I'm sure Colin McRae won't be the first or the last pilot to fly on an expired pilots licence.
You could programme the digital card/licence and the card reader to what ever information is required like minimum flying hours, pilot licence expiry date etc etc
10 September 2011, 03:13 PM
#167
Colin McRae will always be a legend, he made a terrible and tragic mistake is all and yes, children lost their lives - but so did he.
RIP
10 September 2011, 03:17 PM
#168
What a load of ****. You cannot write someone off for one mistake, one accident no matter how terrible it is.
10 September 2011, 04:18 PM
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He was just a risk taker, simple. On the stages, it was what was needed, but on public roads or in a helicopter with children aboard, it was wholly inappropriate.
Geezer
10 September 2011, 04:22 PM
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Les, quick question
In Aviation why don't they have a digital card as a pilots licence, similar to the new HGV digital tacho cards. Before any kind of flight whether that be in a helicopter or plane you insert the card into a digital card reader then if your pilots licence has expired or you havn't flew the necessary hours it won't let you proceed by disabling the electroncs required to start up the aircraft.
I'm sure Colin McRae won't be the first or the last pilot to fly on an expired pilots licence.
You could programme the digital card/licence and the card reader to what ever information is required like minimum flying hours, pilot licence expiry date etc etc
In Aviation why don't they have a digital card as a pilots licence, similar to the new HGV digital tacho cards. Before any kind of flight whether that be in a helicopter or plane you insert the card into a digital card reader then if your pilots licence has expired or you havn't flew the necessary hours it won't let you proceed by disabling the electroncs required to start up the aircraft.
I'm sure Colin McRae won't be the first or the last pilot to fly on an expired pilots licence.
You could programme the digital card/licence and the card reader to what ever information is required like minimum flying hours, pilot licence expiry date etc etc
Money, plain & simple. Contrary to what you might read in the papers, most GA pilots are very safety conscious & don't fly with an expired license.
10 September 2011, 05:31 PM
#171
The problem is that it wasn't one mistake. I close relative of mine worked with Colin for years, and his life was just one big risk take. He just dicked about all the time. He didn't get away with this one, but it could have come at any time in the preceding 15 years.
He was just a risk taker, simple. On the stages, it was what was needed, but on public roads or in a helicopter with children aboard, it was wholly inappropriate.
Geezer
He was just a risk taker, simple. On the stages, it was what was needed, but on public roads or in a helicopter with children aboard, it was wholly inappropriate.
Geezer
Should I then be written off by all and sundry? How about all you others out there who take risks?
10 September 2011, 08:26 PM
#172
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It might have been mentioned , but CMc's lack of licence was no more of a practical issue than one of us having a ten year and one month old, expired car licence.
10 September 2011, 08:44 PM
#173
Fair point mate, but we all take risks. Next time I'm on a "spirited" drive down the back roads I might run out of talent and wipeout - could be on a bend with another unseen car oncoming, could kill people in the car.
Should I then be written off by all and sundry? How about all you others out there who take risks?
Should I then be written off by all and sundry? How about all you others out there who take risks?
10 September 2011, 10:17 PM
#174
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The McRae i watched in total admiration was the guy driving Rally cars for a living, at that time what happened in his personal life had no bearing on my opinion of him, so its not about to change now.
The guy made a huge mistake and paid the ultimate price, its as clean cut as that, it makes no difference to his status as a Rally Legend, maybe even the greatest ever.
The guy made a huge mistake and paid the ultimate price, its as clean cut as that, it makes no difference to his status as a Rally Legend, maybe even the greatest ever.
10 September 2011, 10:30 PM
#175
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11 September 2011, 10:25 AM
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What happened is irrelevant as far as his reputation as a rally driver goes; it detracts nothing from his achievements. Those who wish to celebrate that with stickers on their car etc... should feel no shame in doing so whatsoever: they're endorsing the driver, not the man. In fact, how many on here actually knew the guy, or what happened inside that helicopter to promote that style of flying?
Regardless of what is said in the "SN hearing" the experts who have been privy to all the evidence have spoken: The pilot unnecessarily flew the aircraft in a scenario that gave him no margin for error and no escape clause (i.e. a place to put the helicopter down) should a problem have occurred, which was unwise and very likely contributed to the fatal outcome.
Looks like he made that most human of errors: an error in judgement and thanks to that error, a number of people paid with their lives.
If you think the guy deserves to be vilified for that, that's your call and you're perfectly entitled to that view, but keep that in mind next time someone asks you to show them what your Impreza can do! It can all go wrong so very quickly!
Ns04
Regardless of what is said in the "SN hearing" the experts who have been privy to all the evidence have spoken: The pilot unnecessarily flew the aircraft in a scenario that gave him no margin for error and no escape clause (i.e. a place to put the helicopter down) should a problem have occurred, which was unwise and very likely contributed to the fatal outcome.
Looks like he made that most human of errors: an error in judgement and thanks to that error, a number of people paid with their lives.
If you think the guy deserves to be vilified for that, that's your call and you're perfectly entitled to that view, but keep that in mind next time someone asks you to show them what your Impreza can do! It can all go wrong so very quickly!
Ns04
Last edited by New_scooby_04; 11 September 2011 at 10:26 AM.
11 September 2011, 10:53 AM
#177
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Les, quick question
In Aviation why don't they have a digital card as a pilots licence, similar to the new HGV digital tacho cards. Before any kind of flight whether that be in a helicopter or plane you insert the card into a digital card reader then if your pilots licence has expired or you havn't flew the necessary hours it won't let you proceed by disabling the electroncs required to start up the aircraft.
I'm sure Colin McRae won't be the first or the last pilot to fly on an expired pilots licence.
You could programme the digital card/licence and the card reader to what ever information is required like minimum flying hours, pilot licence expiry date etc etc
In Aviation why don't they have a digital card as a pilots licence, similar to the new HGV digital tacho cards. Before any kind of flight whether that be in a helicopter or plane you insert the card into a digital card reader then if your pilots licence has expired or you havn't flew the necessary hours it won't let you proceed by disabling the electroncs required to start up the aircraft.
I'm sure Colin McRae won't be the first or the last pilot to fly on an expired pilots licence.
You could programme the digital card/licence and the card reader to what ever information is required like minimum flying hours, pilot licence expiry date etc etc
When iot comes to privately owned machines, it will be just the same as anyone owning a car of course. Your are responsible for your own licence and if you are not licenced you will get hammered for it if you are caught.
Your idea would work of course and it would be an expensive arrangement to set up.
Les
11 September 2011, 11:01 AM
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What happened is irrelevant as far as his reputation as a rally driver goes; it detracts nothing from his achievements. Those who wish to celebrate that with stickers on their car etc... should feel no shame in doing so whatsoever: they're endorsing the driver, not the man. In fact, how many on here actually knew the guy, or what happened inside that helicopter to promote that style of flying?
Regardless of what is said in the "SN hearing" the experts who have been privy to all the evidence have spoken: The pilot unnecessarily flew the aircraft in a scenario that gave him no margin for error and no escape clause (i.e. a place to put the helicopter down) should a problem have occurred, which was unwise and very likely contributed to the fatal outcome.
Looks like he made that most human of errors: an error in judgement and thanks to that error, a number of people paid with their lives.
If you think the guy deserves to be vilified for that, that's your call and you're perfectly entitled to that view, but keep that in mind next time someone asks you to show them what your Impreza can do! It can all go wrong so very quickly!
Ns04
Regardless of what is said in the "SN hearing" the experts who have been privy to all the evidence have spoken: The pilot unnecessarily flew the aircraft in a scenario that gave him no margin for error and no escape clause (i.e. a place to put the helicopter down) should a problem have occurred, which was unwise and very likely contributed to the fatal outcome.
Looks like he made that most human of errors: an error in judgement and thanks to that error, a number of people paid with their lives.
If you think the guy deserves to be vilified for that, that's your call and you're perfectly entitled to that view, but keep that in mind next time someone asks you to show them what your Impreza can do! It can all go wrong so very quickly!
Ns04
One point, it is not so much that he was flying in an area where he could not put the aircraft down, helicopters are pretty good at landing in most places if something goes wrong mechanically.
What the board would have meant is that he was flying the aircraft in such a manner that he got into a situation where he had insufficient control left to be able to avoid the ensuing accident. This would have been due to his inexperience at low flying and the required actions to avoid hitting anything. Maybe as in rally driving he was happy to push it to the limit only this time he unknowingly exceeded that limit which he needed in order to recover to safe flight.
That situation and the deaths of himself and his passengers was all down to him.
Les
11 September 2011, 11:47 AM
#179
I don't know the exact figures of what helicopters and both commercial and private planes cost, as an example lets say a heliocopter costs between £500k and £2 million and a commercial airliner costs around £40 million with a private plane around £500k upwards.
I doubt the equipment would be over £5,000, if someone is willing to spend the huge amounts above then they would certainly not notice an extra £5,000 especially if they are already spending £500k and anywhere upto around £40 million depending on the aircraft, they wouildn't even notice it.
As part of an aircrafts service the machines software could be updated, it wouldn't be hard to absorb the costs, lets face it someone who can afford to own a plane could easily afford the small amount extra to have that type of system, you would just make it law that any new aircraft built automatically have a similar system installed from the factory.
I'm sure if they can do similar with HGV's then they can do it with aircraft.
11 September 2011, 01:10 PM
#180
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My photocard driving licence expired the other week, for 1 hour (while driving to the post office) I was technically a non-licence holder.... thank **** I didn't crash as I'd have been dragged through the streets while being set alight....
Also I'm loving the "the man was a rally driver so knew no fear" type comments.... so by that statement everything he did in life was always on the edge of death?? like shopping at Tesco's, cutting the lawn.... or even taking a dump?
The bloke was killed in a tragic accident, regardless of the circumstances....
Also I'm loving the "the man was a rally driver so knew no fear" type comments.... so by that statement everything he did in life was always on the edge of death?? like shopping at Tesco's, cutting the lawn.... or even taking a dump?
The bloke was killed in a tragic accident, regardless of the circumstances....