SiPie

Service technician in Canons eyes

scubbay

iTrader: (61)

Yeah hold on there though. You cannot compare a recent graduate, whose age can be anywhere between 22-24 on average, to a guy with 20 years experience and expect them to be as good at that job straight away. Give the graduate a couple of years experience and its likely those basic errors will be gone, if not then they are bad at what they do. The guy with 20 years experience is still needed, as I have mentioned before, these guys can teach graduates and others a lot of skills. But they are not an engineer in my opinion unless they have an engineering qualification. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what they do, they are very much needed but they are not engineers. This is why in most industries these guys will be "managed" by the engineers with the degree.

urban

iTrader: (1)

Jesus Christ - I've never heard anything more ridiculous than this before.

I employ a software developer who is excellent at what he does - he doesn't have any computing qualifications.
He regularly has to educate the 'qualified' youngsters that now have a couple of years on the job experience too

scubbay

iTrader: (61)

You haven't heard very many ridiculous statements then. The point of mine and others posts is that engineer should be a protected title. People can't run around calling themselves doctors or lawyers etc, in my opinion people shouldn't be allowed to call themselves engineers either.

As I have said before how many of these engineers people know could specify, design, test and sign off on something like a crankshaft for example. The answer I suspect is very few, because they are not engineers and do not possess the skills required. This is my point. I have studied for years to get to where I am and yet my title is cheapened by anybody being able to use it.

By the way your software developer is like those people I mentioned before. Very good at what he does I am sure but in my opinion cannot call himself an engineer without the qualifications. The others, with a degree, even though they may not be as good, can. Don't get me wrong, there are people that graduate with an engineering degree that I wouldn't trust but thats like any industry, they are going to be good and bad graduates.

urban

iTrader: (1)

I've heard many ridiculous statements over the years

I understand what you're on about, but.............
Just because you've 'learned' about it, doesn't mean a whole lot in the real world.

We took on a graduate last year, and to be perfectly frank, he was a thick as two short planks.
We persevered with him for around 4 months, but he just couldn't cut it.

Now, equally on the other hand, we took on what we saw as a good guy
Qualified AND with many years experience.
Problem was he thought he knew best, thought his was was the only way.
He would spend endless hours working on 'trying' to make his way work, to realise that his employer was correct in the first place.
Thankfully we 'got rid' before the probation period was up.

fitzscoob

One of my pet phrases at work is, just because I'm asking you to do this in a nice way doesn't mean my suggestion is optional.

Everyone thinks they know best. I'm happy for staff to bring me suggestions on how to tackle certain situations, but when they make an hours job take three hours because they are bloody minded and done it different to how I told them too, they soon know it.

I've started to employ school leavers more now, factory mentality comes hard to people who have been working in offices for a few years, they generally don't like how everything is regimented and there's no flexitime, *** breaks, texting or stuff like that on work time.

CREWJ

I've interviewed many people in Engineering and there are a lot of engineering graduates that are as thick as two short planks. On the other hand there are some graduates that **** all over some of the so called "experienced" applicants.

With any job you get the good and the bad.

At least CoB understands how it works.

scubbay

iTrader: (61)

Exactly CrewJ, you going to get good and bad graduates.

[-(o)-]

iTrader: (1)

The word Engineer shares is origins with ingenuity and invent. This implies a level of problem solving, not the following of a maintenance procedure.

I'd like to see the term protected (as it is in other countries). I qualified as an Engineer (4 years - Mechanical specialising in Automotive), but am not a practicing one. One of the reasons I left industry was because this popular mis-perception has seriously undermined the profession. The number of subsequent job interviews where I was asked if I was a Mechanic...

An Engineer hasn't got to be a graduate, but they need to be designing/developing/managing/producing, not repairing/fixing/maintaining.

chocolate_o_brian

iTrader: (22)

Where I work you have it in three stages, craftspeople (ie me), MT's (maintenance technicians) or team leaders, then engineers. There are other levels above such as senior engineers and then plant engineers who are basically office ponies our first engineer spends his time between the team leaders and his office. But he started as an apprentice, studied for his degree on day release years back, moved to team leader and then engineer status. Infact he's just told me ok ok to work Sunday overtime This is the good thing about British Steel/now Tata, it's a proper career of you want it to be. They spend a lot on training and you generally stay for years and years. This of course carries the complacency issue, where guys who've been here since school think they're in disposable and don't know what working in a ****ty factory/warehouse is like (as I unfortunately do). Iirc the majority of high end engineers on the various plants on the Scunthorpe site have worked their way up from apprentices so know how to use a file or what practicable. I personally think the way I'm doing things is better than just studying at university and going straight into an office. That's just my opinion.

chocolate_o_brian

iTrader: (22)

PS apologies but I can't be arsed sorting the 'auto spellchecker' in the above post. It's kinda legible

jef

iTrader: (13)

i here the point on protecting the term engineer

as it is probably over used, but this happens in all proffessions, anyone can call themselves a builder, personal trainer ect ect.

does pre-fixing the trade before the engineer not make a happy medium? just now you get structural engineers, mechanical engineers ect.
the word in this country anyway is not used as a literal description anymore, its a generic term employed by many but probably used to give the customer some confidence in the product/service.

hmm reading my own post back, the term really should only be used for actual engineers imo

AndyC_772

iTrader: (2)

A prefix is fine as a way of describing an engineer's particular area of specialisation, but it should still only refer to someone who has the knowledge and skills to design things.

So, for example, a mechanical engineer may design engines - but that doesn't mean he can necessarily remove the engine from your car, strip it down and rebuild it. That's a mechanic's job; the mechanical engineer is the person who designed it not to need rebuilding until it's endured 100,000 miles of abuse in the first place.

By the same token, a photocopier engineer should be able to explain precisely why a particular roller is in the print engine is 43mm in diameter as opposed to 45mm, and how exactly that contributes to a 20% increase in print speed over last year's model. The person who replaces that roller as part of a service or repair operation on a particular machine is a technician.

Tidgy

o ffs, i hear the engineers bleat on about this at work most of the day and can't help but larf.

dictionary definition 'a person trained and skilled in the design, construction, and use of engines or machines, or in any of various branches of engineering: a mechanical engineer; a civil engineer. '

makes no mention of having to have a qualification to use the title.

and here is the doctors version,

a person licensed to practice medicine, as a physician, surgeon, dentist, or veterinarian.
a person who has been awarded a doctor's degree: He is a Doctor of Philosophy.


I've worked with grads with limited experiance who are better than 20 year engineers, i realy depends on the person. Real worl engineering is a far flung thing from university engineering.