EU referendum vote
25 October 2011, 12:37 AM
#91
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Good luck in life and "Welcome to 'our' country".
25 October 2011, 12:56 AM
#92
Thanks, but your welcome is a bit late. My family have been working for 'our' country for the past 400 years.
We worked the first 300 years for free, then supported it through two World Wars when Britain stood alone with just her Empire (that's my family and one quarter of the world) and we've been working on re-building Britain for the past 50 years. We're just not cheap labour anymore.
And, no, you haven't answered my question on BMW jobs.
No, I'm smarter than pslewis. I argue with facts and logic.
25 October 2011, 01:05 AM
#93
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25 October 2011, 08:46 AM
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Now we know what our political "masters" think of us ... http://news.sky.com/home/politics/article/16095546 ...
I'd guess the "81" were in danger of being targeted by UKIP. If they were really for a referendum they would have resigned. Oh, wait a moment. That would have meant giving up their cushy numbers as MPs .... 
Dave
The Government has won a vote against holding a referendum on Britain's future in the EU - but 81 Tory MPs defied the Prime Minister.
Dave
Last edited by hutton_d; 25 October 2011 at 08:47 AM. Reason: Speeling ....
25 October 2011, 09:20 AM
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As I came across a link to this completely by accident so I looked up what the Tories had done a U-turn on...
...and this is what I found...
So I am guessing these accusations of U turns and referendum commitments must relate to someone else's election manifesto then. Or are some of these posters listening to what they wanted to hear?
...and this is what I found...
So I am guessing these accusations of U turns and referendum commitments must relate to someone else's election manifesto then. Or are some of these posters listening to what they wanted to hear?
Originally Posted by Cameron
Today, I will give this cast-iron guarantee: if I become PM a Conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that emerges from these negotiations
25 October 2011, 09:30 AM
#99
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Well done.
My comments refer to the manifesto for last years General Election. That is the manifesto that was voted on for this term of Government.
I am sure that for any party we can go back through the years and get many examples from any party where they contradict themselves from term to term.
What you are completely ignoring context - between 2007 and 2010 terms - is that the Lisbon Treaty was signed and the context was completely different.
So, strangely, the manifesto has changed to specifically reflect the Lisbon Treaty.
As for party of choice - I don't feel any specific loyalty to any party. If anything disloyalty to Brown drove my last voting choices.
My comments refer to the manifesto for last years General Election. That is the manifesto that was voted on for this term of Government.
I am sure that for any party we can go back through the years and get many examples from any party where they contradict themselves from term to term.
What you are completely ignoring context - between 2007 and 2010 terms - is that the Lisbon Treaty was signed and the context was completely different.
So, strangely, the manifesto has changed to specifically reflect the Lisbon Treaty.
As for party of choice - I don't feel any specific loyalty to any party. If anything disloyalty to Brown drove my last voting choices.
25 October 2011, 09:38 AM
#100
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Well done.
My comments refer to the manifesto for last years General Election. That is the manifesto that was voted on for this term of Government.
I am sure that for any party we can go back through the years and get many examples from any party where they contradict themselves from term to term.
What you are completely ignoring context - between 2007 and 2010 terms - is that the Lisbon Treaty was signed and the context was completely different.
So, strangely, the manifesto has changed to specifically reflect the Lisbon Treaty.
As for party of choice - I don't feel any specific loyalty to any party. If anything disloyalty to Brown drove my last voting choices.
My comments refer to the manifesto for last years General Election. That is the manifesto that was voted on for this term of Government.
I am sure that for any party we can go back through the years and get many examples from any party where they contradict themselves from term to term.
What you are completely ignoring context - between 2007 and 2010 terms - is that the Lisbon Treaty was signed and the context was completely different.
So, strangely, the manifesto has changed to specifically reflect the Lisbon Treaty.
As for party of choice - I don't feel any specific loyalty to any party. If anything disloyalty to Brown drove my last voting choices.
I agree in part with what you are saying, but politicans should be very careful about the words they choose and maybe select common sense over rhetoric especially on such a major subject.
The fact is that Cameron promised a referendum with no caveats about treaty signing or whatever. He then changed his mind! People took him at his word and he didn't deliver. That simply isn't fair!
P.S. My voting choice was easy - they are all ***** - stay at home!
25 October 2011, 09:49 AM
#101
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You are being ridiculous.
Let's take another example.
Ford Focus comes with Free SatNav in 2007. You buy one in 2010 which comes with interest free credit.
Do you go back and say - you u-turning *****, where's my satnav?
The manifesto is for the electoral term that you are voting for. The context significantly changed so the manifesto did.
As for reading manifestos - I have never read one before this - I was intrigued by the arguments and completely by coincidence I came across a link for it and thought I would see for myself.
I am not a fan of the major parties but I am pro-Europe.
Let's take another example.
Ford Focus comes with Free SatNav in 2007. You buy one in 2010 which comes with interest free credit.
Do you go back and say - you u-turning *****, where's my satnav?
The manifesto is for the electoral term that you are voting for. The context significantly changed so the manifesto did.
As for reading manifestos - I have never read one before this - I was intrigued by the arguments and completely by coincidence I came across a link for it and thought I would see for myself.
I am not a fan of the major parties but I am pro-Europe.
25 October 2011, 10:16 AM
#103
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Yes, it was (and is) a struggle, what with prejudice and the barriers some people who think they're superior try put in our way. But 'our kind' has never shirked a challenge.
In any case, it is easier for me than it is for you. I've got the benefit of class, a good education, pushy parents, good skills, qualifications and vision. I was always going to do well.
'Your' government needs to look after you more than it needs to look after me.
In any case, it is easier for me than it is for you. I've got the benefit of class, a good education, pushy parents, good skills, qualifications and vision. I was always going to do well.
'Your' government needs to look after you more than it needs to look after me.
Nicely put response Sam
dl
25 October 2011, 10:31 AM
#104
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Ask yourself this. In opposition, most parties are Eurosceptic to some degree. In power, they act in a fairly pro-Europe way. That includes Thatcher, Tebbit and Cameron.
Its rather like where i used to work. Everyone hated it, and they all wished for redundancy. Last year they got the option, but when it came to the final decision, only a few took it. Two of those have now gone back.
Same as Europe. We blame all our ills on it, moan about it, talk about leaving, but when in power and with the real chance to leave, all parties back off and go along with it. Why, because they realise the truth of the matter. Our success or failure is MOSTLY down to ourselves,no-one else. (and thats often a hard truth to face, much harder than blaming someone else)
Its rather like where i used to work. Everyone hated it, and they all wished for redundancy. Last year they got the option, but when it came to the final decision, only a few took it. Two of those have now gone back.
Same as Europe. We blame all our ills on it, moan about it, talk about leaving, but when in power and with the real chance to leave, all parties back off and go along with it. Why, because they realise the truth of the matter. Our success or failure is MOSTLY down to ourselves,no-one else. (and thats often a hard truth to face, much harder than blaming someone else)
25 October 2011, 10:51 AM
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couldn't agree more..
the reality of democracy is nothing gets done unless there's money in it for the parasite classes, just a glorification of the worst aspects of human nature presented as some sort of fatalist ideology, "if i don't someone else will" or "just being realistic". More like "i'll be dead soon so sod it keep killing, fill your boots and let the grandchildren deal with the mess". Back to a straightforward monarchy i say, almost can't believe i'm saying that but anything's better than being ruled by glorified shopkeepers backed by morons.
25 October 2011, 12:11 PM
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Oh Dear!!!!
A little more research undermines the Euro negative arguments even more.
First of all there was no Conservative Manifesto in 2007, it was 2005.
And in that the referendum was not about leaving Europe at all - it was about the Lisbon Treaty - which of course was ratified before 'Dave' came to power.
More than that - the 2005 manifesto talks about expanding Europe, not leaving it!!
You just can't trust the public
This is like candy from a baby. All that hysteria based on complete fallacy!!
A little more research undermines the Euro negative arguments even more.
First of all there was no Conservative Manifesto in 2007, it was 2005.
And in that the referendum was not about leaving Europe at all - it was about the Lisbon Treaty - which of course was ratified before 'Dave' came to power.
More than that - the 2005 manifesto talks about expanding Europe, not leaving it!!
You just can't trust the public
This is like candy from a baby. All that hysteria based on complete fallacy!!
Originally Posted by Conservative Party Manifesto 2005
Conservatives support the cause of reform in Europe and we will co-operate with all those who wish to see the EU evolve in a more flexible, liberal and decentralised direction. We oppose the EU Constitution and would give the British people the chance to reject
its provisions in a referendum within six months of the General Election. We also oppose giving up the valuable freedom which control of our own currency gives us. We will not join the Euro.
We will also build on the success of enlargement, making Europe more diverse by working to bring in more nations, including Turkey.
its provisions in a referendum within six months of the General Election. We also oppose giving up the valuable freedom which control of our own currency gives us. We will not join the Euro.
We will also build on the success of enlargement, making Europe more diverse by working to bring in more nations, including Turkey.
25 October 2011, 12:22 PM
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Oh Dear!!!!
A little more research undermines the Euro negative arguments even more.
First of all there was no Conservative Manifesto in 2007, it was 2005.
And in that the referendum was not about leaving Europe at all - it was about the Lisbon Treaty - which of course was ratified before 'Dave' came to power.
More than that - the 2005 manifesto talks about expanding Europe, not leaving it!!
You just can't trust the public
This is like candy from a baby. All that hysteria based on complete fallacy!!
A little more research undermines the Euro negative arguments even more.
First of all there was no Conservative Manifesto in 2007, it was 2005.
And in that the referendum was not about leaving Europe at all - it was about the Lisbon Treaty - which of course was ratified before 'Dave' came to power.
More than that - the 2005 manifesto talks about expanding Europe, not leaving it!!
You just can't trust the public
This is like candy from a baby. All that hysteria based on complete fallacy!!
The only thing that is like taking candy from a kid is the way in which you allow yourself to be manipulated by the lies and crap talked by politicians. Like so many you are a soft touch!
25 October 2011, 12:31 PM
#112
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I am merely acting as a conduit to all those quoting electoral promises.
And those promises are written in the form of an electoral manifesto.
I suspect you are the soft touch - getting all worked up and foaming at the mouth based on a politicians promise - how naive are you?
And those promises are written in the form of an electoral manifesto.
I suspect you are the soft touch - getting all worked up and foaming at the mouth based on a politicians promise - how naive are you?
25 October 2011, 12:32 PM
#113
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Oh Dear!!!!
A little more research undermines the Euro negative arguments even more.
First of all there was no Conservative Manifesto in 2007, it was 2005.
And in that the referendum was not about leaving Europe at all - it was about the Lisbon Treaty - which of course was ratified before 'Dave' came to power.
More than that - the 2005 manifesto talks about expanding Europe, not leaving it!!
You just can't trust the public
This is like candy from a baby. All that hysteria based on complete fallacy!!
A little more research undermines the Euro negative arguments even more.
First of all there was no Conservative Manifesto in 2007, it was 2005.
And in that the referendum was not about leaving Europe at all - it was about the Lisbon Treaty - which of course was ratified before 'Dave' came to power.
More than that - the 2005 manifesto talks about expanding Europe, not leaving it!!
You just can't trust the public
This is like candy from a baby. All that hysteria based on complete fallacy!!
I do think that the oppertunity will come for a referendum, as if Germany gets its way and a more tight fiscal union is created, then that will mean treaty changes and will need more power. Which under the manifesto set out by the Coalition it states.
Originally Posted by Coalition Agreement
9. Relations with the EU
We agree that the British Government will be a positive participant in the European Union, playing a strong and positive role with our partners, with the goal of ensuring that all the nations of Europe are equipped to face the challenges of the 21st century: global competitiveness, global warming and
global poverty.
We agree that there should be no further transfer of sovereignty or powers over the course of the next Parliament. We will examine the balance of the EU’s existing competences and will, in particular, work to limit the application of the Working Time Directive in the United Kingdom.
We agree that we will amend the 1972 European Communities Act so that any proposed future Treaty that transferred areas of power, or competences, would be subject to a referendum on that Treaty – a ‘referendum lock’. We will amend the 1972 European Communities Act so that the use of any passerelle would require primary legislation.
We agree that the British Government will be a positive participant in the European Union, playing a strong and positive role with our partners, with the goal of ensuring that all the nations of Europe are equipped to face the challenges of the 21st century: global competitiveness, global warming and
global poverty.
We agree that there should be no further transfer of sovereignty or powers over the course of the next Parliament. We will examine the balance of the EU’s existing competences and will, in particular, work to limit the application of the Working Time Directive in the United Kingdom.
We agree that we will amend the 1972 European Communities Act so that any proposed future Treaty that transferred areas of power, or competences, would be subject to a referendum on that Treaty – a ‘referendum lock’. We will amend the 1972 European Communities Act so that the use of any passerelle would require primary legislation.
25 October 2011, 12:39 PM
#116
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I am merely acting as a conduit to all those quoting electoral promises.
And those promises are written in the form of an electoral manifesto.
I suspect you are the soft touch - getting all worked up and foaming at the mouth based on a politicians promise - how naive are you?
And those promises are written in the form of an electoral manifesto.
I suspect you are the soft touch - getting all worked up and foaming at the mouth based on a politicians promise - how naive are you?
As for getting worked up - not at all, just don't like seeing people taken for a ride by politicians, in fact I would have thought you were smarter than that Trout!
25 October 2011, 12:42 PM
#117
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In what way am I getting taken for a ride by politicians?
Did you read my post at the beginning of this thread.
My point is that a number of people are quoting a Conservative commitment that simply isn't true. Doesn't make me a conservative in particular - I am intrigued by how people decide something is one thing when it was clearly something else.
The deeper inference of your post is interesting - what you are saying is that if you are smart then you don't vote as all politicians are not to be valued for their electoral promises?
Did you read my post at the beginning of this thread.
My point is that a number of people are quoting a Conservative commitment that simply isn't true. Doesn't make me a conservative in particular - I am intrigued by how people decide something is one thing when it was clearly something else.
The deeper inference of your post is interesting - what you are saying is that if you are smart then you don't vote as all politicians are not to be valued for their electoral promises?
Last edited by Trout; 25 October 2011 at 12:43 PM.
25 October 2011, 01:37 PM
#119
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I think it's a shame when people don't vote, especially when it's somebody who has a modicum of understanding of the issues involved, rather than being from Teesside and voting for a lump of coal with a red rosette on. Abstaining from the vote won't change politics. It's called politics for a reason, after all...
25 October 2011, 01:50 PM
#120
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I think it's a shame when people don't vote, especially when it's somebody who has a modicum of understanding of the issues involved, rather than being from Teesside and voting for a lump of coal with a red rosette on. Abstaining from the vote won't change politics. It's called politics for a reason, after all...
As it happens I don't think us coming out of Europe completely is the answer, quite the opposite, but I do think that if a guy stands up and says that we have a cast iron guarantee of a referendum if he becomes PM then for him to backtrack on that is wrong.
As to whether the public could be trusted with such a vote well my views on that are pretty well known LOL!