Trout

iTrader: (1)

BTW - I am still trying to find a reference anywhere where Cameron said he would have a referendum for getting out of Europe.

And I can't - can someone please help me - in particular those who said that Cameron categorically made this promise?

Trout

iTrader: (1)

And you think Thatcher was an altruistic leader and not interested in her career.

Now you really are being funny!

Trout

iTrader: (1)

I completely agree - but that is not a referendum about leaving Europe that is a referendum about ratifying the treaty - they are not the same thing.

As far as backtracking - how could he hold a referendum on this once Labour had writting into law?

paulr

C'mon guys, this is getting silly. He said, she said, this that and the other. Judge people by their actions, and the actions of all parties is to take us deeper into Europe. Being Prime Minister is a big boys game, with consequences.

Martin2005

I think that those who are 'Euro-sceptic' are almost certain to get their vote at some point in the near future. There is going to have to be some significant treaty changes to allow for fiscal/political union, that will automatically trigger a referrendum in this country.

Now the day after we leave, will this be a better fairer country, will our problems be solved? - I doubt it.

I hope that in ending the obvious democratic deficit we have in the EU, we can then swirtch our attention to the equally bad and unequal political union and democratic deficit we have HERE. A subject most Euro-Sceptic seem completely mute on.

David Lock

Not true. dl

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Expand?

paulr

Are you for real. When the financial crisis started a few years ago, everyone blamed it on the US. When petrol go's up they blame it on OPEC.

hodgy0_2

and when people start dancing, they blame it on the boogie

nutters

JTaylor

Well at least the sunshine, moonlight and good times get a reprieve.

Trout

iTrader: (1)

Apart from the 111 on Monday night,



and, oh, Nigel 'Nutter' Farage

Leslie

Whatever you think of our own political system at least we still have the power to vote a bad government out, and they have to pay attention to that!

If we became federated with the rest of Europe as they are hoping to establish eventually, we would effectively become disenfranchised since we only have 10% of the Eu MP's to represent us. I think that any other type of government that we might have in this country which we could vote for would disappear and the leaders would be "appointed" to very nice Eu jobs.

Les

Leslie

You really are a dreamer! You have swallowed all the political Europhile propaganda alright.

Les

Trout

iTrader: (1)

He may be a dreamer but much of it is true.

Having worked in Financial Services there has been much said about cross-border business in the EEC and then EU. It remains very difficult to implement due to sovereign laws and regulation being in place. And that is just one of many industries.

Leslie

It seems to me that those things mentioned are best dealt with by a country's own government. Surely the EFTA agreements covered what we needed to be able to trade with other Eu countries anyway.

Best that the people have the ability to elect their own politicians, thats the only way that any kind of control can be exercised.

No reason that free trade can't be established as in the original Common Market.

Much better that the people can have some kind of control of their government. Big mistake to let them have what would amount to unlimited power.

Les

GlesgaKiss

Yes we can. By that logic, it would be best for everyone in the world to pool sovereignty and change to the EU model. You talk about a fair, free market? Where? In Europe? This is the bureaucracy which puts in place trade tariffs and then sends aid to the countries hampered by them.

One common system is supposed to be the goal. But what about the nature of that system? What if some people have a problem with that? How could it still be put forward as a solution to our 'problems', or indeed any problems?

SouthWalesSam

iTrader: (1)

During 11 years with an international bank I worked as an IT Systems Manager for the Europe Area.

I worked with, ate with, drank with, played with (??!!) Frenchmen, Germans, Dutchmen, Swedes, Norwegians, Italians, Spaniards, Belgians and Greeks.

At the time, the drive, design direction, innovative solutions came out of London, closely followed by Paris, with Frankfurt being our fastest growing branch.

We all had common aims, communicated in a common language (English, obviously) and co-operated. It was great!

This month that bank overtook Bank of America to become the biggest bank (by assets) in the world.

I’ve already seen successful European co-operation in action.

I didn’t dream it.


And I don’t swallow Europhile propaganda; I create it, spread it and believe in it.

(Sorry, another broken promise, I’m starting to act like a politician myself).

David Lock

So what?

We could easily stay in Europe's trading zone - just as Norway - which I see you mention in your speech above.

Keep the Pound and trade in any currency that is required say Euros (if they still exist, Marks or Dollars.

dl

SouthWalesSam

iTrader: (1)

EU laws are meant to define standards, not systems.

In international dealings common standards mostly works best.

For example, international air travel is safer because we relinquished our traditonal measures and adopted metrification. Imagine an airline pilot flying round the world and ordering fuel in bushels and pecks in London (our historic measures), litres in Paris, UK gallons in Gibraltar and US gallons and quarts in New York. Okay, he'd probably have lost his way, but you get my drift! So he fuels in litres.

The exact definition of a litre is determined by a world standards body.

Now some people have a problem with litres but are we worse off because we gave up our sovereign right to define our own measures and chose to adopt and international one instead?

It's one common standard that's the goal, not a prescription of the system you use to acheive it.

Anything that can be decided locally and that doesn't affect our international interactions should be decided locally.

Anything that's too big for the UK to handle on our own should be pooled and fixed together.

It's just how good communities work.

And people keep saying, "Why can't we just go back to the Common Market?" Because the legal, employment and social standards that are needed to underpin a fair, open market of 500 million people have to be agreed centrally.

GlesgaKiss

That's irrelevant, because the EU is a system. Look at human rights and employment regulations, to name but two examples from this 'free market' haven. That is clearly working towards a set political goal. It isn't just to enable people to go efficiently about their lives and business without harassment.

Without wishing to offend, your experience and your role in an international bank would somewhat influence your idea of what is 'good' for people. The world is full of economists and experts wrapped up in the current system who see any furthering of it as 'good'. As long as GDP in the immediate future is increased, right?

Do you think that having a market across the world full of people working for their own benefit would not result in standard measurements being used across the board, regardless of state decree? Don't forget, the variety of units and measurements were only ever there because, for a long time, the markets themselves were fairly isolated. Of course, within those markets there were the standard measurements you'd expect to see adopted as a result of continuous trade.

If you could outline the issues which are too big for the UK to handle, I'd be interested to know.

SouthWalesSam

iTrader: (1)

So what? So yes, I'm a dreamer, but my dream has foundation.

Staying in a Europe trading zone doesn't help us solve the other major non-trade issues we face.

Didn't say anything about the Euro. I don't care what the currency is. I'm pro-Europe, not pro-Euro.

But as you brought it up .... The pound has lost 30% of its value against the Euro since the Euro was introduced. So which currency does the market have most faith in? And since we're such big importers (oil, gas, cars, etc) that's made us significantly worse off.

Martin2005

Les I'm not arguing, I largely agree.

I just wish a bit more time and effort was spent in pointing out the flaws in our own political system.
The irony is that most of the Tory Euro-sceptics are to a man (or woman) in favour of the our Union and political system, and would fight tooth and nail to protect it with all its in-built injustices, privilige and anti-democratic 'traditions' is all feels rather hypocritical to me.

I should point out that we may only get 10% representation at a Euro election, but at least it's proportional, it's a hell of a lot more democratic than our current system!

Martin2005

What has the Human Right Act got to do with this debate?

GlesgaKiss

The title of the thread is "EU referendum vote". The effects of the EU's policy on human rights have been net negative when it comes to justice in this country, in my opinion.

Martin2005

Well feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but i believe the Human Rights act has nothing to do with the EU membership. And therefore it's not the 'EU policy on Human Rights'.

I believe there are around 50 countries signed up, therefore many not in the EU. I think you might be accidentally conflating 2 issues here.