SouthWalesSam

iTrader: (1)

Human Rights are nothing to do with the EU. That's administered by the European Court; a body set up after World War 2 with Britain as it's chief sponsor. It's a higher court than any European national court. The Blair labour government enshrined the European Court's Bill of Rights into UK law to save people having to go to the European Court so their case could be decided here instead under UK law.

You seem to be agreeing with me on common standards: you need them when you're dealing internationally.

I said in post #70:
"We can't deal with the big issues (pollution, defence & security, migration, energy sufficiency, a looming world trade war (Republican USA vs China?), international banking crisis, global warming... ) without pooling sovereignty."

GlesgaKiss

EU laws and regulations are based on the principles (or lack thereof!) of human rights. So it is the 'EU policy on Human Rights'.

GlesgaKiss

For the first point, see above.

The second... I do agree, commerce is obviously much easier when there is a common standard. Should that be decided by govt? On principle, depending on your views, perhaps not. But for me that isn't an issue to be too worried about. Not common units and measurements, anyway. Rules and regulations are a different story - the general 'way of doing things' that is forced on everyone - especially when it comes from career bureaucrats with no real business experience. The way the EU heads in that respect, prioritising human rights and all the worst aspects of the system, as I've said above, is not desirable to me. I don't think it's desirable to anyone who considers individual rights and equality before the law to be important.

Martin2005

Are you both opposed to human rights then(small h & r)

GlesgaKiss

Yes. They're pointless. We never needed them (and, as I said, they destroy real justice), and they're ignored by anyone who might.

What about the idea that everyone in the country will be treated the same? If someone commits a crime - theft, assault, etc. - then they should all be dealt with in the same way, regardless of being of a certain race, religion, sexuality, minority, or class. And leave it at that. We don't need any positive laws to enforce equality or 'discourage' discrimination in that scenario, do we?

SouthWalesSam

iTrader: (1)

Okay, Dave, You don't buy my dream. Try my nightmare instead. Let's say we got out asap. What happens over the next 3-5 years? [ Big apologies in advance for the length].

• ‘Out Now!’ coalition wins UK referendum, Cameron government resigns and calls election.
• New UKIP, Tory, BNP coalition Govt launches 5-year ‘Sell British’ global export drive.
• All employment laws and minimum wage are abolished immediately
• UK opts of EU trade laws and regulations overnight
• Daily Mail editor appointed as Downing Street chief Press Officer
• 6 container loads of Greek yoghurt meant for the 2012 Olympics arrive 10 days after the Games have finished.
• UK formally leaves the EU on 1st January 2013.
• Combined New Year and ‘Freedom’ street parties held up and down the country.
• Few turn up for work on 2nd January and 5% of workforce get sacked on Jan 3rd (“they were the slackers, anyway”).
• Greek supplier claims ‘yoghurt-gate’ was down to Dover Customs ****-up and refuse to pay compensation.
• Migrant workforce heads off home as don’t like the new government and no longer want to wipe **** and pull turnips for £2.50 an hour.
• Germany, France & Italy push for 20% EU-wide trade tariff to stop cheap UK goods being ‘dumped’ in the EU.
• BMW, Nissan, Toyota, JLR and Honda announce plans to shift production to Portugal
• UK loses 10% of our national income (your figures, Dave) in the first year, the bulk of which was used to pay wages.
• Unemployment continues to rise.
• Straight bananas go on sale and sell out overnight.
• Tax revenues fall dramatically and government debt jumps from current £1 Trillion to £1.25 Trillion.
• Markets refuse to fund ‘basket case’ UK deficit at less than 7.8% interest per year (as per Greece)
• Govt forced raise taxes to cut deficit. Basic tax rate rises to 30%.
• 40,000 professionals leave UK for Europe, Canada and southern hemisphere (per Ireland).
• Govt launches health workers fast training scheme for doctors, nurses and care workers
• Markets panic and the FTSE-100 slides by 45% wiping £3k per year off the average private pension.
• Budget for ‘Sell British’ programme cut due to lack of funds, export credit guarantee scheme closed.
• Pound drops to 90 Euro cents and $1.06.
• Petrol rise to £2 per litre, fuel protests follow, Government blame EU’s anti-UK tariff.
• US signs new trade accord with China. Dollar strengthens.
• Govt blames 70% gas bills rise on strong US dollar, Russian profiteering.
• Care sector in chaos as 250 ‘filthy’ council care homes shutdown due to budget cuts and rising staff costs
• Cash makes a comeback as tax evasion rises, pubic avoids bank charges
• High street bank shares crash, taxpayers’ £1.3 Trillion bale out now halved in value
• By end 2015 unemployment rises from 2.6 million (8.5%) to 5.7 million (18.5%)
• With 2 million 18-24 year olds unemployed ‘Skill up Slowly’ programme launched to keep kids in education until age 30 and cut unemployment figures.
• Health worker training scheme places cut as tuition fees rise.
• 50 BNP MPs vote against the Govt proposal to allow NHS to re-employ foreign staff
• UK slides from 5th largest economy in the world to 23rd
• OECD report says it might take 20-40 years to fix UK economy.
• Lord Coe admits LOCOG to abandon 3-year compensation case against Greek supplier.

David Lock

That's just silly.

Do you write The Daily Mash?

dl

SouthWalesSam

iTrader: (1)

Of course it's silly. But the underlying scenario's almost plausible.

Do you want to take the risk?

David Lock

Not 'arf, guv

Martin2005

OK you either misunderstood my question or we really are miles apart.


You are saying that you don't believe human beings should have rights?


Surely you don't actually mean that?

Martin2005

I love this post

Although tongue in cheek, it does at least try and illustrate that leaving the EU is no easy call which is an interesting contrast to the views portrayed on here by some. There is likely to be some really big issues and challenges for the UK whether we stay in or get out, there is no free lunch here...Unless you are a Euro MP of course

There is a chance that the UK will become part of the EU trading block, with the other non-euro countries, allowing the Euro members to form a fiscal union to save the currency. Now that's probably the best of all world.....could we all agree on this???

SouthWalesSam

iTrader: (1)

I don't smoke, but when I get diarrhea it comes out of my fingers!

Just got to say 'Big Thanks' to all who rose to the bait and posted ripostes to my comments, speeches, digs and diatribes, and helped me graduate from 'Scooby Newbie' to 'Scoobie Regular' today.

You're probably goin' to live to regret it tho'.
Sam

Chip

It's the same here in Wales only the valleys mob would all vote for a sheep if it had a red rose on it.

David Lock

Could we all agree? How long have you been on SN

In fact I think being a trading partner is all most want and keep out of the political crap. May be part of any defence union as it gets expensive doing it all on our own - only problem being that any war would probably be over before EC got around to a decision to press the button

dl

Leslie

Hardly surprising that you think the sun shines out of the EU "arris" then isn't it?

Can you explain why the commissioners' accounts have been impossible to audit for so many years,and where did the missing millions of euro's go? Could you honestly put any trust in them?

How do you feel about having our country's laws and taxes etc. all dictated by them and being policed by them too. Does British democracy mean nothing at all any more? All that would be lost and we would have no say in our own destiny. We could no longer live our own style of life.

Les

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

I think you missed the post where he admitted he was a wind up merchant

SouthWalesSam

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, but it's 'Sceptics I like winding up best of all!

Les, please don't lose sight of the prize.

We're trying to get ourselves out of recession in the UK by upping our exports.

There's a £10.7 Trillion market of 501 million people out there in EU land. And it's already our biggest export market.

If we can up our game and grab another 5% say, of EU market share that would give us over £500 Billion pounds of additional income every year. The taxes on that could wipe out our deficit, fund our schools & hospitals and give us a lifestyle to rival the Germans.

We're top innovators and designers (ARM, Dyson, Land Rover Evoque).
We can make stuff; Toyota Derby most productive car plant in Europe, UK car production up 7% in September, in a recession!.
We can sell stuff 'cos we're a nation of shopkeepers and we're selling £240k Rollers in a global slowdown like they're hot cakes
And we're ace at networking and diplomacy (even the countries Britain invaded/enslaved still want to be in the Commonwealth club)

We're just sh!te at organising ourselves for competitive business. We prefer to borrow and spend rather than save and spend. And we keep blaming the EU 'cos we're not doing better.

I'm after the £Billions and £Trillons. The Euro-MPs we elect and send to Brussels can get off their butts sort out the budget millions instead of standing on the sideline.

I've tried to show (see 'My Nightmare' post) that under capitalism democracy takes second place to the markets.

If a national govt does something that spooks the markets (like walking away from our biggest trading client) capital dries up, Govt debt rates shoot up, your currency falls, shares drop, taxes are forced up (e.g. Greece). All as fast as you can click a mouse.

Our democracy is subject to the markets (no I don't like it, either) and the markets are private investors, funds and countries accross the world.

If you're not part of a group that's big enough to influence and confront the markets when things get tough, then you're finished!

I'm pro Europe because I'm pro-Britain!

Sam

GlesgaKiss

You'll fit in well here, Sam. We're all ***** anyway.

Leslie

You make valid points of course, but you have not answered the questions I asked about our country being thrown to the Eu wolves and us losing all control of our laws and destiny for that matter.

We should be able to do all those good things you mention but still remain in charge of our own country instead of beig led by the nose ito the sort of Europe envisaged by those experts at starting a couple of world wars!

I too am quite obviously pro Britain and that is why I don't want to see it become a distant memory.

Les

andythejock01wrx

Hey Sam,

Enjoyed your posts on this thread, so welcome to SN (if you're not an long termer under a new username?).

I can see the sense us ensuring fluid trade with our neighbours in mainland Europe, but am not clear to what extent we would lose that trade if we did indeed leave the EU. In other words, are you saying that we benefit from preferential (or non existent) tarriffs by our EU membership which we would lose if we left the EU? So, if 50% of our international trade is with EU states, what's to say there would be any significant loss of that trade by leaving the EU? I can see the benefits of uniformity, but there must be more to it than that?

Why do external investors have a better access to other EU member states when they build factories in a UK which is part of the EU yet not part of the Eurozone - would they not have a similar opprtunity to sell to the EU if we went alone?

Switzerland appears to fare well in its trade with EU members?

And are you a politician?

cheers,

Andy

David Lock

And the answer is.......




None

And the UK public sector would be free to buy British goods if it wanted to rather than having to go through horrendous EC procedures of advertising contracts throughout the EC under EC procurement rules.

dl

Leslie

Exactly.

Les

GlesgaKiss

A lot of what ifs in Sam's posts. All of which could almost equally apply on the other side of the argument, if only on a bigger scale.

SouthWalesSam

iTrader: (1)

Thanks, Andy

Don’t mean to lower the tone but ….

Seems we want to **** Europe but we can’t bear to bring ourselves to kiss her!

And we keep talking about moving out but we think she’s going to keep letting us back in for some regular jiggy-jiggy whenever we feel like it!

She’s going to notice and she’ll shut and bar the door.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

This attitude goes right to the top:

Last week the Eurozone was wrestling with the 'problem birth' of a Euro crisis solution.

Cameron turns up in Brussels like some absentee father and gives 'midwives' Mercle and Svarkosy (M&S) a finger-wagging lecture about how they’ve "got to get it right because what’s good for [his baby] is good for Britain too". Eh?

Then like a proper absentee dad, at 4am in the morning, instead of being sat next to bleary-eyed M&S and telling the world press how (for a fee) the City of London would be gathering global funds to underpin the foetal Euro solution, he’s …

… flying off on a jaunt out to Aus’ to make the earth-shattering announcement that not the next UK monarchy, nor the one after that, but the one after him (still with me?) can be a 'first-born' Queen and she can marry a Catholic.

Now I believe in equality even more than I believe in Europe but even I have to ask; Have we got our priorities right here?

Cameron didn’t even offer to stop on the way back to sell the Chinese the idea that the City could come up with some good products (for a fee) for channelling Chinese investor money into the bale-out fund.

We just sidelined ourselves in Europe even more (and passed up a foreign trade opportunity in our own specialist area).

SouthWalesSam

iTrader: (1)

Through the 80's til 1995ish the Japanese limited themselve under a 'gentlemen's agreement' to not more than 10% of the UK car market. This was after lobbying from the SMMT (UK makers' trade body) for tariff on cheap Far East cars.

Nissan, Honda, Toyota opened mid 90's UK factories. Ended restrictions at a stroke and opened unlimited EEC (now EU) market to them.

Up until this week it didn't matter if the target country in or out of the Eurozone. But now I think a 2 track EU is emerging: Eurozone vs. semi-detached.

Incidently when 3-series sales started to overtake Sierra/Mondeo sales in the UK, BMW bought Rover/Jaguar/LR sold Rover (£20), sold JLR £2 Billion, kept MINI. No-one's ever raised an eyebrow over German car sales here since.

SouthWalesSam

iTrader: (1)

Switzerland is/was a tax haven that got rich by hiding wealthy people’s money. Now that it can’t hide the money anymore (international anti-terrorism money laundering rules), it charges wealthy people a fee for holding their money. We charge poor people high fees for holding their wages in RSB & Lloyds.

So yes, I suppose we’re a bit like the Swiss.

Oh, did I say international rules? Sorry, keep forgetting UK wants to be free from international rules that restrict our freedom, and …

SouthWalesSam

iTrader: (1)

Keep getting asked this. Mrs SouthWalesSam answered this in post #73 (because I’d taken an unbreakable vow of silence).

No. I’m just trying to lay groundwork for the coming national debate on Europe that tries to cut through (though, not disregard) the emotion and concentrate on the pragmatic.

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Out: 49%, In: 40% (MORI 25/10/11). So us Pros- only need an 11% swing!