The Zohan

YUP!

paulr

Agree, but my point was that when you look into the whole benefits bill, its more complex than just those that dont want to work.
I'll give some examples or real life people i know.

1. I dont know anyone who is actually unemployed.
2. Two "house husbands" who say they cant get a job as they look after the kids. Both wives work, yet they claim family credit
3. One mate on disability benefit.....genuine.
4. Three people who are "disabled" yet work. They get free bridge tolls.....why?
5. Approx 8 people who "refused promotion" as they lose family credit.
6. A shed load of people who all refuse overtime as it reduces their family credit.

All getting money from the state, but not just simple "wont work".

his-n-her-scoobs

iTrader: (5)

I know three people who can't work, fair enough, that is what the system is for.

I know three people who won't work, and havn't done for years, yet the state supports them. Why?

And yes, I know various shades of grey between. Some are caught in the "no point in doing more hours as the state just takes it back" trap, and can understand their reasoning/dilemma.

Question is, what the hell is going to get done about the complete shirkers?

paulr

Hopefully they will be "encouraged" to enter the workplace. But, as i said before, in 2009 JSA which is job seekers allowance, which is a direct benefit for those unemployed, was only 4% of the whole benefits bill. The 25 yr old lazy sod who lives at home and stays in bed all day is not the real problem.
The real problem is all the shades of grey.

jonc

Problem is it won't be long before that 25 yr old becomes part of the "shade of grey". But like I said before, I am willing for me and my family to take a hit on child tax credit and child benefit as part of the reform to change the system to prevent claiming benefits a career option.

his-n-her-scoobs

iTrader: (5)

Never had tax credits. Didn't even get tax relief on maintenance payments. First top admit that I've been lucky tho. Seen plenty of "there but for th grace of God go I" cases.

Did once apply for UBF 18 years ago (in the last recession). Was told I would have to wait 6 weeks to claim so I went out and got a job instead LOL

But I would actually be willing to pay more tax in the short term to help prevent that 25 year old becoming a burden on the state later. ie fund some sort of reform. The problem is cyclical. This 25 year old will join the grey area whilst the next 25 year old is lounging at home. The problem will only get bigger. And with an aging working population due to retire soon, who is going to pay the taxes?

paulr

So whats the answer. Anyone have any thoughts apart from the usual "stop their benefits".

his-n-her-scoobs

iTrader: (5)

Don't know. Think that's what I'm asking. Everybody knows we have a problem but nobody political seems to want to do anything (constructive) about it. Sure there are the vote grabbing sensationalist "cut their benefits" headlines, but we all know they will never follow thru. Problem is, the longer it goes on the worse it will be when it does come to a head (or becomes unsustainable)

The same shirkers will be screaming "it's not fair" and they "know their rights" when the pot runs dry. At the end of the day these people will still be able to look after themselves. They won't like it but it will happen. My worry is it will effect the pensioners/disabled and genuine claiments etc who will no longer be supported by the system that has been so abused.

How much of that 2.88BN is being lost, in fact how much of the 16BN disability is being incorrectly claimed? Not that we will ever know. What is the root cause? I don't think it is poor schooling, although I have my suspicions after so many years of "record exam results". Or lack of opportunity, the East Europeans seem to find work easy enough. In fact I am coming to the conclusion that without the immigrant working population the economy of this country would collapse completely, certainly the manufacturing base. A sad indictment of the moral state of our country. Even sadder is the fact that many claimants seem to have a similar standard of living to those who slog their guts out for a pittance. What reward is that?

We have a system that cares, the envy of the world. It is being beaten to death and we are in danger of losing it.

paulr

No. They find work because they are nearly always emplyed by agencies who have the work waiting. Much below minimum wage (in practice), they live many to a house, and often bring over non-English speaking relatives.

Simple example. I work with a 26 yr old Polish lad who lives with his Mum, Sister and Gran all in one house. He is the only one that works. There is so much mis-information about foreign workers.

Why wont UK workers do the same work, they wont work for less than minimum wage, too right.

Leslie

I remember that when you were fined in a court you could ask for time to pay and the fine you got was affected also by your actual income. It was left to the judge or magistrates to decide how much you paid per week.

Les

his-n-her-scoobs

iTrader: (5)

errrr, where I work they are payed more than the minimum wage.

How can any agency pay much below minimum wage (in practice)?

Some of the workers at my factory share accomodation, true. Most don't.

A lot of the longer serving have been taken on full time.

Some even have mortgages.

Yes there is a lot of mis-information about foreign workers.

paulr

How do they work for less than minimum, because they have a wage "package" that includes transport and housing. This excludes UK workers.

his-n-her-scoobs

iTrader: (5)

Not were I work, or the last place I worked, but I have heard it happens and should be discouraged. But I don't think the real problem is a few greedy agencies.

As you said yourself, this excludes UK workers, so how will the UK workers be working for less than the minimum wage?

kingofturds

iTrader: (1)

Charge extortionate rates for accommodation and travel which comes straight out of their pay packets. Where I used to work they were shipped in by coach and everyone was charged £35 a week for the pleasure.

his-n-her-scoobs

iTrader: (5)

£35 per week travel costs sounds like a bargain to me. Thats £5 per day assuming 5 day week and no responsibilities for the maintenance of the transport (road tax, insurance, tyres etc). What's wrong with that?

Costs me £15 A DAY just in heavily taxed petrol to go to work (return journey)