400bhp from 2.5 Sti....
02 December 2011, 10:48 AM
#31
Moderator
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Terry Crews of moderation. P P P P P P POWER!!
Posts: 18,687
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It might be difficult to see a problem, but that doesn't mean that in practrice there won't be one. With the greatest respect to your knowledge, remember that folks like APi and Bob build and tune more of these cars than pretty much anyone on here.
The advice I always give people is
1) If person 'a' is telling you less is safer and they're wrong, you'll get a few less ponies but retain an engine that works fine and I'm sure they'll be happy to apologise in the fullness of time
2) If person 'b' is telling you that you can have more and your engine lets go, you have a f*ucked engine, no ponies and a big bill which person b will not be helping you out with!
If you've got the money to fix it if you break it and want to go for it though, fine!
Last edited by New_scooby_04; 02 December 2011 at 10:51 AM.
02 December 2011, 12:52 PM
#33
Former Sponsor
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: ECU Mapping - www.JollyGreenMonster.co.uk
Posts: 16,548
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
I did a hawk sti yesterday that had been mapped by someone else to 417bhp and was running fine. Trader who brought it to me for mapping had replaced the pistons for safety. The originals were inspected and perfect. Remapped yesterday on the forged pistons to 436/430 on and sc42.
Simon
Simon
02 December 2011, 01:20 PM
#35
Scooby Regular
Same old ****, different day!
400bhp out of a OE 2.5 is starting to push the boundaries of luck.
Will it be OK - maybe.
Will it not be OK - maybe.
I sure for **** would not push an OE 2.5 to 400bhp if I was bothered about reliability in the slightest.
400bhp out of a OE 2.5 is starting to push the boundaries of luck.
Will it be OK - maybe.
Will it not be OK - maybe.
I sure for **** would not push an OE 2.5 to 400bhp if I was bothered about reliability in the slightest.
02 December 2011, 01:31 PM
#36
Out of interest guys, what would we say is a max limit on a newage JDM 2.0?
Not talking about drivetrain wise but engine wise, i.e. pistons, rods, etc... where do the more experienced tuners see as a safe level.
As i've been thinking of getting a 2.1 conversion done to mine, as i always have the thought in the back of my mind that its gonna let go at its current power level. Although 4 trackdays later and almost a year and a half after upping the power, its still seems to be running strong?
Thoughts?
Sorry OP for the hijack.
Mel
Not talking about drivetrain wise but engine wise, i.e. pistons, rods, etc... where do the more experienced tuners see as a safe level.
As i've been thinking of getting a 2.1 conversion done to mine, as i always have the thought in the back of my mind that its gonna let go at its current power level. Although 4 trackdays later and almost a year and a half after upping the power, its still seems to be running strong?
Thoughts?
Sorry OP for the hijack.
Mel
02 December 2011, 01:39 PM
#38
Former Sponsor
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: ECU Mapping - www.JollyGreenMonster.co.uk
Posts: 16,548
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Totally agree regarding 2.5 it is down to owners assessment to risk
2.0 engine is very strong, the main issue that seems to happen over time is the valves recess into the heads over time, but happens on standard engines etc with mileages into 80k.
Ran my own at 503bhp for 30odd k with no issues.
Done a fair few into mid 400s with no issues, jdm and uk engines seem just as strong as each other.
Simon
2.0 engine is very strong, the main issue that seems to happen over time is the valves recess into the heads over time, but happens on standard engines etc with mileages into 80k.
Ran my own at 503bhp for 30odd k with no issues.
Done a fair few into mid 400s with no issues, jdm and uk engines seem just as strong as each other.
Simon
02 December 2011, 01:43 PM
#40
Moderator
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Terry Crews of moderation. P P P P P P POWER!!
Posts: 18,687
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One big factor that no-one has mentioned yet is the way the car is driven, which differs significantly betwen owners.
I'm relatively gentle with my cars: i.e. they don't get driven everywhere like I stole them. I would *probably* be a good candidate for pushing it! But there is little point in having power there if you are concerned about using it for fear of bending something.
The way that some people drive these things, frankly I'd worry about the pistons with a TD04 and .8 bar of boost applied!!
I would suspect that when most people get their car tuned then want a higher level of assurance that "might be ok. might not" Hence why most tuners seems to be of the opinion that 400bhp not advisble on a 2.5 with standard pistons.
I'm relatively gentle with my cars: i.e. they don't get driven everywhere like I stole them. I would *probably* be a good candidate for pushing it! But there is little point in having power there if you are concerned about using it for fear of bending something.
The way that some people drive these things, frankly I'd worry about the pistons with a TD04 and .8 bar of boost applied!!
I would suspect that when most people get their car tuned then want a higher level of assurance that "might be ok. might not" Hence why most tuners seems to be of the opinion that 400bhp not advisble on a 2.5 with standard pistons.
Last edited by New_scooby_04; 02 December 2011 at 01:44 PM.
02 December 2011, 05:47 PM
#44
Hey Simon yes the car is still at 460 for now which is more then plenty for the road. To be honest I drive it round in the second low boost map most of the time and at full power on track or when a bit of fun is needed. No plan s for more power at the moment, well not before a 2.1 rebuild anyway.
NS04 - I know what you mean with the way some people drive their scoobys, fortunately I'm not one of them. So hopefully should keep me going ok for a while longer.
Mel
NS04 - I know what you mean with the way some people drive their scoobys, fortunately I'm not one of them. So hopefully should keep me going ok for a while longer.
Mel
02 December 2011, 06:15 PM
#45
Scooby Regular
Mel,
Your use of your twin boost maps seems to be totally illogical to me mate.
High boost for the road and low boost for the track would be more beneficial in my book.
If the majority of your use is road, yet you have it on low boost for this.... I would suggest you have the wrong turbo fitted imo, as you would benefit from a quicker spooling and smaller turbo.
Yours is about 360bhp is it not on low boost?
Your use of your twin boost maps seems to be totally illogical to me mate.
High boost for the road and low boost for the track would be more beneficial in my book.
If the majority of your use is road, yet you have it on low boost for this.... I would suggest you have the wrong turbo fitted imo, as you would benefit from a quicker spooling and smaller turbo.
Yours is about 360bhp is it not on low boost?
02 December 2011, 06:18 PM
#46
Scooby Regular
Whilst a lot of people say they are running (for instance) 600bhp with no issues.... how many of those are a)running 600bhp all the time and b)actually (imo) use this power properly?
It's the same old crap when tuners state their builds are reliable..... without any context it means utter **** imo.
02 December 2011, 06:36 PM
#47
It's about 380 on low boost Shaun but still with plenty if torque to boot too.
To be honest the low boost map is there for fuel consumption as boy can it drink on the high boost map.
Don't get me wrong I know exactly what mean by having the power there and not using. But I like the flexibility that it gives me having the option.
Mel
To be honest the low boost map is there for fuel consumption as boy can it drink on the high boost map.
Don't get me wrong I know exactly what mean by having the power there and not using. But I like the flexibility that it gives me having the option.
Mel
02 December 2011, 06:51 PM
#48
Moderator
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Terry Crews of moderation. P P P P P P POWER!!
Posts: 18,687
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What the car is used for and how, along with mapper and spec are the key factors imo.
Whilst a lot of people say they are running (for instance) 600bhp with no issues.... how many of those are a)running 600bhp all the time and b)actually (imo) use this power properly?
It's the same old crap when tuners state their builds are reliable..... without any context it means utter **** imo.
Whilst a lot of people say they are running (for instance) 600bhp with no issues.... how many of those are a)running 600bhp all the time and b)actually (imo) use this power properly?
It's the same old crap when tuners state their builds are reliable..... without any context it means utter **** imo.
Agree with you though. When I took my 2.5 to APi I told David it HAD to be reliable and I whatever power output I got had to be meaningful i.e. not a one off dyno figure, but something I could USE on the road (and the occassional track day) and not worry about it it breaking.
You're only ever as strong as your weakest link and you have to respect the effect of type of useage on that weakest link when tuning.
02 December 2011, 08:48 PM
#51
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: here, there, everywhere
Posts: 3,111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
harvey built my 2.5 with forged pistons and got 6 speed set up/ mapped bob r.
ran 420/430 all day long, never a blip.
great job - inevitabley ended up needing more power tho lol.
he advised the pistons if creeping near 400 or more. i was running 320 so didnt want to pay lots for a 30bhp gain, hence forging the pistons and running a sc billet turbo
total beast of a set up imo - great from even low down. the six speed set up makes the set up complete, was on a 94 sti,
agree with abouve, a lot is down to how its driven, never tracked mine, but gave it the beans on road regularly and safley lol, regular oil changes with good quality oil helped keep all in check.
ran 420/430 all day long, never a blip.
great job - inevitabley ended up needing more power tho lol.
he advised the pistons if creeping near 400 or more. i was running 320 so didnt want to pay lots for a 30bhp gain, hence forging the pistons and running a sc billet turbo
total beast of a set up imo - great from even low down. the six speed set up makes the set up complete, was on a 94 sti,
agree with abouve, a lot is down to how its driven, never tracked mine, but gave it the beans on road regularly and safley lol, regular oil changes with good quality oil helped keep all in check.
Last edited by jef; 02 December 2011 at 08:56 PM.
02 December 2011, 10:53 PM
#52
To the OP : If the car is an STi 2.5 with pink injectors/STi injectors I would not go further than the injectors allow, subject to the turbo in use. This means you can get a relatively fast car by paying attention to the necessary modifications and detail and typically, subject to the variations on different rolling roads this will put you somewhere between mid 360 plus and 380 bhp. Beyond the capabilities of the STi injectors (without an FPR bump) you are in dangerous territory. Some will get away with it and some won't. If the car being off the road for a week or two and the cost of a rebuild is not a problem that is fine but for others it will be a disaster.
If you want to go beyond the level above you need a set of forged pistons and if you want to go much beyond 430 bhp or thereabouts you should also be looking at rods too.
Now these 2.5 engines have a tendency to lift the heads with boost so you are looking at ARP studs and proper head gaskets and I think that much above 450 bhp you might want to look at rings to hold the boost and inserts or pins to hold the cylinders in position. I don't think anybody can predict which engines will have head gasket issues, in part it is related to boost level but there must be additional factors because some people get away with it and others don't.
I can take risks on my own car but that cannot happen with a customer car unless the customer is fully aware of the potential for disaster.
If you want to go beyond the level above you need a set of forged pistons and if you want to go much beyond 430 bhp or thereabouts you should also be looking at rods too.
Now these 2.5 engines have a tendency to lift the heads with boost so you are looking at ARP studs and proper head gaskets and I think that much above 450 bhp you might want to look at rings to hold the boost and inserts or pins to hold the cylinders in position. I don't think anybody can predict which engines will have head gasket issues, in part it is related to boost level but there must be additional factors because some people get away with it and others don't.
I can take risks on my own car but that cannot happen with a customer car unless the customer is fully aware of the potential for disaster.
Last edited by harvey; 03 December 2011 at 10:13 AM.
02 December 2011, 11:25 PM
#53
Moderator
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Terry Crews of moderation. P P P P P P POWER!!
Posts: 18,687
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Exactly as Haryvey says:
A 2.5 well tuned with the std turbo makes for a very good road car.
If you're going for a bigger turbo, the SC46 is the one you want and for that, you need the pistons, rods, studs etc done... at which point its an awesome road car!
I know from experience
A 2.5 well tuned with the std turbo makes for a very good road car.
If you're going for a bigger turbo, the SC46 is the one you want and for that, you need the pistons, rods, studs etc done... at which point its an awesome road car!
I know from experience
03 December 2011, 11:09 AM
#55
Moderator
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: The Terry Crews of moderation. P P P P P P POWER!!
Posts: 18,687
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You play, you pay mate. We both know this!
For those that can't stomach the forged and big turbo bill though, the 2.5 with some good supporting mods and a expert re-map makes for a very quick road car! It's all about spool and torque.
For those that can't stomach the forged and big turbo bill though, the 2.5 with some good supporting mods and a expert re-map makes for a very quick road car! It's all about spool and torque.
Last edited by New_scooby_04; 03 December 2011 at 11:11 AM.
03 December 2011, 11:14 AM
#56
Instructing with fear
Thread Starter
iTrader: (31)
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Www.Extreme-rally.co.uk
Posts: 5,101
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
I decided to give the 2.5 p1 a swerve lol, spotted a couple of decent spec alternatives but just waiting to hear back from the person interested in my current car
04 December 2011, 07:07 PM
#60
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts