alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Muppet? He was "Chairman of the Governors", that's EVEN WORSE: self styled ego-trippers.

LOL

Flaps

iTrader: (1)

I'm a teacher and totally agree with this concept, I can think of quite a few at our place that everyone would be better off without!

That link says that 'in straightforward cases, the process could be completed in nine weeks' so I don't think anyone who is an ok teacher has anything to worry about so it's good for everyone!

PSLewis, give it a rest. Same old **** different day.

Leslie

Don't understand what you mean by a bad patch. Is the teacher competent at the job or not surely. Previous assessments will indicate that anyway. If there is a personal problem that is affecting the teaxcher then a bit of leave of absence may sort it out. Can be counted as sick leave.

If however the assessments indicate a serious lack of ability to do the job then to be fair on the students, the teacher needs to be removed.

If I had been regarded as incompetent at my job, and that included teaching, the skids would have been under me very quickly, and rightly so.

Les

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

The voice of common sense

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Les and F1, you make it sound sooooo simple.

Never forget that a teacher's job is to educate a class of 30 or so youngsters, all from different backgrounds, most with vastly different levels of interest, intelligence and attention span.
The teacher must interest, motivate, captivate, educate, encourage, discourage, discipline, reward ALL at the same time.

And by the time you get those kids to the upper reaches of a secondary school, around 25% of them DON'T WANT TO BE THERE AT ALL!

Now, imagine said teacher: his wife is ill.
Or one of his kids is due in hospital.
Or a parent is dying.
Or a sibling has been diagnosed with cancer.

You CAN'T allow time off for everything that might upset the delicate balnce of teracher/pupil, so that he is not at his best.

What DO you do?

In your world, "the skids would be under him."

But would YOU have wanted to have been treated in so unfeeling a manner?

In teaching, you CAN'T just put someone on light duties, non-flying etc, there is NO-ONE to take his place.
And when the door closes at the start of a lesson, he's on his own....maybe for 90 minutes or more.

Great, he's under-performing, let's sack him, there are LOADS, and ALL with EXPERIENCE, queueing up to take his palce........oh....wait, and .....oh....wait

Leslie

I did cover the situation if the teacher has personal problems as you will realise of course.

If a person has such terrible problems then it can be assumed that he is unfit to do the job at that time and there should be provision to replace him at the job until his situation is back to normal. You can't expect someone to cope under such circumstances of course and it should not be expected of a teacher in that kind of situation.

What does one do if the teacher is taken seriously ill I wonder?

Any organisation should be arranged so that such problems can be covered satisfactorily.

Les

Flaps

iTrader: (1)

I don't think it's quite as simple as one or two poor observations and you're out. We have to take what's happening at home for the kids into consideration when planning out lessons so i'm sure they would do the same when observing ours. I think it's more about getting rid of the bad eggs, ones that don't follow the rules.

We also need to know each student individually not just by name but by background, SEN, targets etc and tailor the lessons to suit every individual. I'd also add 'assessing' to your list too. It's a hard job and it's a shame that people outside of the profession don't realise just how hard and demanding it actually is!

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

And never, ever, forget that you are dealing with a set of individual people, any of whom can react in odd, aggressive, strange, inappropriate ways at ANY time for ANY reason.

ScoobyDoo555

The problem with explaining this phenomenon to people who don't work in the sector, is that 99% of the anecdotal stuff is SO bizarre, that it's hard to believe. "Who the HELL would subject themselves to this everyday? There's NO amount of money worth putting up with this"....blah blah blah.

And yet there are people who do this everyday, and then in their free time come on to forums like this, and into society (you know, the REAL world) and get abused even more with ignorant viewpoints. Yes there are some benefits, but subjectively are still unbalanced in terms of recompense for the abuse.
The biggest reward is still the look on student's faces when they get that "lightbulb" moment. We've all had it as kids - teacher/tutors/professors who actually taught you something you've never forgotten. The life-changing experience: the buzz, believe it or not, is a feeling the benefits both parties in the learning experience.
(strangely enough, a big motivator for those getting into education in the first place - sadly some just can't replicate the same experience).

If you took everything to heart on this forum for example, you could be led to believe that educators are 2nd-class citizens, not the sector that used to be respected for the hard work they do.

So (ironically) I stop telling people now. Simple. It's easier. I don't need to justify myself to anybody. I know the effect I have on peoples' lives, and I'm humbled by the gratitude I receive still.

How many of you in your jobs get the same feeling for a job well done?

But "you" keep slagging us off - fine. I won't argue with you. Life's too short.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

Have things changed that much in the past 20 years? Back then teachers could get leave.

Back when I was at school there were two of my teachers who were basically professional baby makers. So were off all the time.

Now one was actually a fairly good teacher, she just liked popping out babies alot. Three times whilst I was there, each time being replaced by a substitute, one being Mr Hall aka "If.....I......am.....going......to....fast.....fo r....you.....tell......me....to...stop" and Mr Spencer with his Ninja/Vulcan style pressure points attacks on the more violent classmates that wouldn't sit still (Its amazing how much pain he could inflict with just two fingers ).


The other sprog spawning teacher was a useless liberal Irish woman who was all airy fairy and laid back on anything until you crossed her on subjects that she held dear...she banned me from any performances or outings to do with the Birmingham REP as punishment because obviously I had no appreciation for 'the arts'. She was right on that one at least. Bunch of useless hippies - get a proper job!! However despite this, she had no disapline nor control for the violent knuckle dragging primatives that were in her clases that spent more time disrupting it than learning anything. The only time work got done in her classes was during her maternity leave and an 'old school' substutute teacher would kick there ***** into touch.

In both cases there was replacements for both in absense. But in reality the one should have been booted for good.

Same with the one with who had double Pneumonia, and the other that had a mental breakdown and flipped his lid. Both upon their return were 'eased' back into school only taking on the better more managable classes. So obviously compassion existed.

BUT. Not once did I see a bad teacher go in that hell hole and there were quite a few. Apart from the weirdo with a bow tie suit and Kawasaki Ninja, I think thats because he lost it and threw a few well deserved punches at the resident primitive low lives. Whilst not condoned it was secretly commended.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Jeez Ali, where'd you go to school? Sounds like the first one I worked in?

I remember walking in on one teacher in the act of HEADBUTTING a kid...I walked out again, didn't see that.....

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

alcazar, you're making the usual mistakee of thinking somehow teachers are special cases. They are not. They are doing a job like anybody else from doctors to roadsweepers.

If you have personal issues you either knuckle down and don't let it affect your job or you pay the price.

It really is that simple!

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

You just don't get it do you?

They ARE special cases by dint of the job they do....AND WHO THEY DO IT WITH.

If you "finish" every one who has a bad time, who will you have to do the job?

ARE there queues waiting to do it? With experience?

Nope, didn't think so.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

No you don't get it....they aren't special cases!!!!

Even if you bring your argument of the fact they are working with kids and responsible for their futures ... no more so than doctors and nurses and if they f**k up they get more than the sack!

They need to stop thinking they're something special and get on with their job.... if they are no bloody good at it then they should expect to be given the boot like the rest of us!

End of!

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

The Grange. Quite a good school by all accounts. With some very good teachers, not all of its pupils were underclass scum, far from it in fact. Unfortunately both had to carry a share of underachieving teachers (and pupils), some riding it out for retirement, some new-age landing head first a in class beyond their capability of handling, and some that generally useless or had lost all hope and were past giving a stuff about anyone.

Now renamed and re-branded, and from what I hear much worse.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Talking out of it again, f1.

Doctors and nurses? yep, a couple of hours in a day at most.
Primary teacher: 6 hours a day. Secondary: up to 4 hours a day.

Doctors/nurses: little interaction, getting someone better.
Teacher: full interaction, trying to change the way that person sees things, or not, behaves, or not, understands, or not.

TBH, you obviously have zero idea of teaching and were proabably bullied at school, or frightened by the nasty teachers.

I'd stop now before you make yourself look even dafter.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

The usual defence from your sort.... I have dared suggest teachers should be treated no differently to anyone else so I must have been bullied at school. What a pathetic response.

I presume you are one or are hitched to one?

I won't waste my time picking your cack apart other than to laugh out loud at the notion doctors work less hours than teachers.

FFS!!! Take along hard look at yourself and get with the real world for once!

Lisawrx

iTrader: (1)

Or little old me, working in a shop, 7 hours a day, sometimes more for pennies really. Shop worker: not life changing work, not necessarily mentally stimulating but full interaction non the less. Trying to help people with little thanks and alot of abuse thrown in (more than people think). Now what happens when I have a bad time, which I have fwiw? I either do the best I can to get on with it or risk the sack and the second did happen to someone I know.

Honestly, I respect the job that teachers do, and I'll admit, I wouldn't want to do it, but they are employees just like the rest of us and just because they do a more important job than me, doesn't necessarily mean there should be free reign to not perform for one reason or another. That said, if personal problems are an issue and sick leave is not an option, then there should be consideration shown to that staff member if they are normally good at what they do. In fairness, if a teacher has a good record but then has a personal problem hit them, it would seem unfair to me for them to lose their job too. But I also think that should apply in any workplace.

Surely the purpose of this is to try and get rid of teachers simply not up to the job, not ones that may have hit a bad patch in their lives and in such cases surely other teachers/the head, hell even students and parents could step in and vouch for them...

CrisPDuk

There is a big difference between a teacher who is going through a bad patch personally, who is deserving of compassion and understanding And a teacher who is consistently incompetent and ineffectual, who deserves kicking to the kerb at the earliest opportunity

I had experience of both during my education. We had two teachers who everybody in the school knew were useless, yet they knew they couldn't be got rid of as they had the NUT backing them to the hilt

Lee247

They do not do a more important job than you. They do a job like all of us.
I do not have the patience to do their job, but that does not mean their job is harder than mine or more worthy. Same with you. We all have tasks and should carry them out to the our best ability. Teachers are no different.

Flaps

iTrader: (1)

The stressful thing for me as a teacher (and also being married to one) is the amount of work that needs doing after the bell goes, that's what non-teachers really don't see or appreciate. On any day of the week my timetable can consist of 150 different students passing through my door, their lessons need planning (currently we need to differentiate for each child), work needs marking, follow ups may need doing (contacting other teachers or parents) then last week whilst doing 'catch-up' every night with Y10 and 11, I had to check and start writing reports, sort out grades and contact the moderator from the exam board and there was also a parents' evening thrown in too! 10 hour days on site are a regular thing (often doing work that is mentally draining) with more to come later once the kid is asleep. The thing that gets to me most is that as we are both in the profession we more often than not have to ask my parents to look after our daughter on a Sunday so we can catch up with some more marking It's a hard job and it pisses me off when we are under appreciated and slagged off by people who quite simply haven't got a clue.
I'd love a 9-5 job that you can just switch off from when the shift ends.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Really? I wouldn't. I work for myself and love the fact that I am always busy doing something. I can think of nothing worse than working 9-5. Sure sometimes when you are working 7 days a week on a project you think 'Am I mad?', but the rewards and I don't mean financial make it worth it.

Anyway I suppose the answer is if you would love a 9-5 why not get out of teaching and get one then? Sorry to be so blunt, but just saying

andy97

iTrader: (1)

Having seen a teacher play the system for over a year before resigning, this new stance is welcome.

The teacher was a bully and very condescending to children and parents. After multiple complaints, disciplinary action started. The teacher went off sick with stress. They were off most of the year, but had to return to work or the disciplinary action would commence. They returned to work for 1 day and the clock was reset, so another several months passed by, before they resigned.

Those who can, do
Those who can't do, teach
Those who can't teach, teach PE

ReallyReallyGoodMeat

Are there any teachers on here that are members of the NAHT or NUT, and agree with their union's stance on this one?

ScoobyWon't

Teaching is like policing but without the baton, cuffs or CS spray.

ScoobyDoo555

You have spent 11 years with them, but from 9-3.30pm (unless you got detention )
and only 5 days per week....

Not arguing (as I've said previously ), but again, the not knowing/accepting of what happens behind the scenes is evident in this thread.

Outside of "conventional" (somewhat tongue-in-cheek) jobs, there are a few where additional duties are expected, but not necessarily acknowledged (Music & Media Industry for example, and no doubt executive positions), so the opportunity to go to management and state you're over-worked will not wash. Education IS one of these roles. As much as it would be FANTASTIC to say I'm going to work to rule, the education sector would be on its knees within a week. You could argue the same with the NHS..... an awful lot of goodwill takes place......

But as I said, irrespective of the non-acceptance of these facts, it still takes place.

ALi-B

iTrader: (1)

I hate to break this illusion: But 9-5 jobs at good or comparable wages do not exist. Well, in private sector at least.

Whilst its easy to knock the office drones, belittling their jobs and assuming their work ends at 5pm is a wide brushed assumption no better than the ones that don't understand the 'out of hours' requirements of your own job.

Iain Young

Lol, touched a nerve have I

Actually, I had two years badly compromised at secondary school. I had an English teacher that was never there (spent all his time in Matrons office having cups of tea during our lessons), and a maths teacher that was almost always drunk. It's only the fact that my parents helped me at home (combined with a lot of hard work on my part) that I got decent grades.

You never answered the question. Why should teachers have different treatment to every single other profession in the country? This change should actually improve the general standard of teaching in the country by allowing the weaker teachers to be weeded out (the same as in any other profession). Are you advocating that in all other walks of life it should be made harder to remove underperforming staff? Sounds like a good way to bankrupt the country (more than it already is)...

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Nurse! He's out of bed and on that computer again!



Sorry, but one correction for you:

YOU brought up doctors and nurses.

I was talking about the TIME SPENT WITH CHILD, not hours worked.

Although I'd like to bet that most GPs work less hours than a primary headteacher, for a LOT more money