Teaching Unions showing what they are truly about
16 January 2012, 12:43 PM
#61
Let's go back to MPs first, shall we.........?
Then we can look at crap doctors, dentists etc, and oh yes there are plenty.
Crap lawyers who make £££ from accident claims, idiots who work for the DSS, I could go on, but most of those are protected.
Doesn't happen in the private sector? No?
Bank directors who got £££ bonuses instead of the sack?
16 January 2012, 01:04 PM
#62
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Your turn to find the obscure comparison
In general only the utterly deluisional (which seems to include most teachers) would think teachers work harder than doctors overall and remember a bad teacher produces a poorly educated pupil, whereas a bad doctor produces a corpse.... I know who my sympathies lie with!
16 January 2012, 01:25 PM
#63
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16 January 2012, 02:13 PM
#64
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I'd like to bet most art teachers work less hours than a junior hospital doctor , for a LOT more money!
Your turn to find the obscure comparison
In general only the utterly deluisional (which seems to include most teachers) would think teachers work harder than doctors overall and remember a bad teacher produces a poorly educated pupil, whereas a bad doctor produces a corpse.... I know who my sympathies lie with!
Your turn to find the obscure comparison
In general only the utterly deluisional (which seems to include most teachers) would think teachers work harder than doctors overall and remember a bad teacher produces a poorly educated pupil, whereas a bad doctor produces a corpse.... I know who my sympathies lie with!
But, as for working harder plenty of teachers work very hard indeed, as do junior doctors, but GPs and consultants/registrars have it somewhat easier, and for great reward, as do heads of large schools, so I don't really see why you think doctors are so deserving of your praise whilst teachers are not
It is not, and has never been, about how hard you work, it's what you deliver to your employer. I know there are loads of people who 'work much harder' than me, but then again loads of people can do that job, so they aren't as well paid.
People seem to be obsessed with the hours that teachers put in, or 'how hard they work', but it's irrelevant. If you inspire your pupils and they all get A grades and go on to become doctors (which you so love
) then it matters not a jot whether they do any of the extras, don't do a stitch in the huge amount of holidays they get, or even spend half of the time joking with the class. If you think teachers get it so easy, become one, instead of bitterly wishing them all a hard time because others have one.
'Tis a strange thing in this country, people wish to project their own misery on others instead of seeking to better their own position if they feel it is unfair.
There is nothing wrong with some employment practices being brought into line for teachers, but most people seem to think they are cosseted pond life, very odd.
I don't know who you work for, but underperforming staff can underperform for a number of reasons, and 4 weeks is hardly enough to find out why or fix it (and quite often it can be fixed).
But essentially, yes, teachers who aren't up to scratch shouldn't be protected. It's the process that needs to be right.
Geezer
16 January 2012, 02:55 PM
#65
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tbh i can see both sides
i think everyone here could tell when at school, who were the teachers that were good or bad.
we had one old women who stood up talking to a double class of around 45 kids trying to teach chemistry - absolutley not 1 child sat in there seat, ran about, burnijg paper, throwing wet paper at her blackboard - i often looked at her and felt real sorry, she had no control but at the same time almost oblivious as to what was happening, now when the head walked in, everyone jumped back into there seats an paid attention for 2 mins.
her collegues definatley had to carry her, as they had to teach us the bits, shed missed.
it was all hilarious to us in the day, but really she knew her stuff, but could not control children properly.
equally our history teacher wore a cape and black hat thing, and walked around with a cane, and hed just smack it on a wooden desk very loudly of any kids that played up. his results were much better.
dont think its too hard to spot a teacher that is continuosly under acheving, maybe offer support to them, establish training needs and work towards them, if they dont improve then its probably not the job for them
i think teachers have an extra-ordinarly hard job tbh,
some, and it imo could easily be far more stressful than other professions,
the important thing here is that the new ruling is not abused, and "yes" men/women rewarded and the rest frowned upon. and tbh do i think it would run like that? most probably not.
and btw i would be a prison gaurd before id be a school teacher, it really does not seem like an enjoyable job, and i appluad those that do it.
i like to teach, but not to such a large variety of individuals, a close knit collection of people that share an interest in what your teaching is much better than trying to force kids to learn something they dont want to learn
i think everyone here could tell when at school, who were the teachers that were good or bad.
we had one old women who stood up talking to a double class of around 45 kids trying to teach chemistry - absolutley not 1 child sat in there seat, ran about, burnijg paper, throwing wet paper at her blackboard - i often looked at her and felt real sorry, she had no control but at the same time almost oblivious as to what was happening, now when the head walked in, everyone jumped back into there seats an paid attention for 2 mins.
her collegues definatley had to carry her, as they had to teach us the bits, shed missed.
it was all hilarious to us in the day, but really she knew her stuff, but could not control children properly.
equally our history teacher wore a cape and black hat thing, and walked around with a cane, and hed just smack it on a wooden desk very loudly of any kids that played up. his results were much better.
dont think its too hard to spot a teacher that is continuosly under acheving, maybe offer support to them, establish training needs and work towards them, if they dont improve then its probably not the job for them
i think teachers have an extra-ordinarly hard job tbh,
some, and it imo could easily be far more stressful than other professions,
the important thing here is that the new ruling is not abused, and "yes" men/women rewarded and the rest frowned upon. and tbh do i think it would run like that? most probably not.
and btw i would be a prison gaurd before id be a school teacher, it really does not seem like an enjoyable job, and i appluad those that do it.
i like to teach, but not to such a large variety of individuals, a close knit collection of people that share an interest in what your teaching is much better than trying to force kids to learn something they dont want to learn
16 January 2012, 03:43 PM
#66
See this is what I'm trying to get across: I have nothing against the idea of getting rid of BAD teachers, but it has to be across the board, and TBH, this government could have found FAR more deserving cases in both private and public sectors.
What I CANNOT understand is this idea, as mentioned above, that just because YOUR working conditions are ****, you want everyone's to be?
Why not work harder to make YOURS better?
What I CANNOT understand is this idea, as mentioned above, that just because YOUR working conditions are ****, you want everyone's to be?
Why not work harder to make YOURS better?
16 January 2012, 04:49 PM
#67
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A poorly educated pupil will cost the country alot more than a corpse ever will, both monetarily and in the hardships that pupil may endure as a result of it, so I don't really see your point in the context of this argument!
But, as for working harder plenty of teachers work very hard indeed, as do junior doctors, but GPs and consultants/registrars have it somewhat easier, and for great reward, as do heads of large schools, so I don't really see why you think doctors are so deserving of your praise whilst teachers are not
It is not, and has never been, about how hard you work, it's what you deliver to your employer. I know there are loads of people who 'work much harder' than me, but then again loads of people can do that job, so they aren't as well paid.
People seem to be obsessed with the hours that teachers put in, or 'how hard they work', but it's irrelevant. If you inspire your pupils and they all get A grades and go on to become doctors (which you so love ) then it matters not a jot whether they do any of the extras, don't do a stitch in the huge amount of holidays they get, or even spend half of the time joking with the class.
If you think teachers get it so easy, become one, instead of bitterly wishing them all a hard time because others have one.
'Tis a strange thing in this country, people wish to project their own misery on others instead of seeking to better their own position if they feel it is unfair.
There is nothing wrong with some employment practices being brought into line for teachers, but most people seem to think they are cosseted pond life, very odd.
But, as for working harder plenty of teachers work very hard indeed, as do junior doctors, but GPs and consultants/registrars have it somewhat easier, and for great reward, as do heads of large schools, so I don't really see why you think doctors are so deserving of your praise whilst teachers are not
It is not, and has never been, about how hard you work, it's what you deliver to your employer. I know there are loads of people who 'work much harder' than me, but then again loads of people can do that job, so they aren't as well paid.
People seem to be obsessed with the hours that teachers put in, or 'how hard they work', but it's irrelevant. If you inspire your pupils and they all get A grades and go on to become doctors (which you so love
) then it matters not a jot whether they do any of the extras, don't do a stitch in the huge amount of holidays they get, or even spend half of the time joking with the class. If you think teachers get it so easy, become one, instead of bitterly wishing them all a hard time because others have one.
'Tis a strange thing in this country, people wish to project their own misery on others instead of seeking to better their own position if they feel it is unfair.
There is nothing wrong with some employment practices being brought into line for teachers, but most people seem to think they are cosseted pond life, very odd.
Maybe if you bothered to read my other posts on here you would see my reply that you have decided to jump upon and pull apart with a load of baseless hypothesis was just to the ludicrous suggestion by alcazar that somehow teachers are more deserving of special treatment than doctors and nurses and many other professions.
Nowhere on here have I said they have it cushy and it isn't unfair that I don't etc. etc, so please wind your neck on on that front as it's a tiresome defence of teachers at the best of times and it boils my p1ss that it is always the second line of defence after the 'you must have been bullied at school' pathetic nonsense!!!
All I have said is that teachers do not deserve special treatment any more than anyone else does, They should get rewarded for doing their job well and sacked if they don't. The same as any other job.
If they feel like they are hard done by then they can chage their career like many others do every day.
It's a job, a responsible one I grant you, but a job nonetheless!
16 January 2012, 05:05 PM
#68
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Having arrived at work today at 7.50, now is the first time I have been able to sit down to check this thread (I am still at work). I am having five minutes replying and then i've got another 12 reports (min) to write tonight.
We are all in the same boat in our department, everyone has loads of coursework to mark. It was brought up last year but seems to have been forgotten now 
And part of that is knowing when you're overworked. Now if you have to work weekends etc then you obviously have too much to do. Have you made your concerns known to the headmaster, to the local authorities? As things are more centrally driven, have you contacted your MP on the issue? How about the press?
16 January 2012, 05:12 PM
#69
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Really? I wouldn't. I work for myself and love the fact that I am always busy doing something. I can think of nothing worse than working 9-5. Sure sometimes when you are working 7 days a week on a project you think 'Am I mad?', but the rewards and I don't mean financial make it worth it.
Anyway I suppose the answer is if you would love a 9-5 why not get out of teaching and get one then? Sorry to be so blunt, but just saying
Anyway I suppose the answer is if you would love a 9-5 why not get out of teaching and get one then? Sorry to be so blunt, but just saying
I have looked at other jobs but having been in the profession for seven years now (plus four years at Uni so I could get into teaching in the first place) I know quite a bit about a lot of software (I teach ICT) but probably not enough about anything in particular to go into industry.
16 January 2012, 06:32 PM
#71
Nowhere on here have I said they have it cushy and it isn't unfair that I don't etc. etc, so please wind your neck on on that front as it's a tiresome defence of teachers at the best of times and it boils my p1ss that it is always the second line of defence after the 'you must have been bullied at school' pathetic nonsense!!!
Did you used to shout stuff at them if you saw them in the street for the first few years after leaving school? No, don't deny it.......LOL
So what wonderful job do YOU do then f1? One that, of course, you COULD have got without ANY help from ANY teachers, EVER?
16 January 2012, 06:49 PM
#72
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It's SOOO obvious you were though and that you were scared stiff of your teachers and now you ARE going to get your own back, aren't you? THAT'S pathetic.
Did you used to shout stuff at them if you saw them in the street for the first few years after leaving school? No, don't deny it.......LOL
So what wonderful job do YOU do then f1? One that, of course, you COULD have got without ANY help from ANY teachers, EVER?
Did you used to shout stuff at them if you saw them in the street for the first few years after leaving school? No, don't deny it.......LOL
So what wonderful job do YOU do then f1? One that, of course, you COULD have got without ANY help from ANY teachers, EVER?
Grow up and respond properly or STFU as you are coming across like a ranting cretin!
16 January 2012, 10:43 PM
#73
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No-one said they should be the ONLY specisal case, but when you do a job that has as much stress on a day to day basis as teaching has, well, cut them some slack eh?
It's SOOO obvious you were though and that you were scared stiff of your teachers and now you ARE going to get your own back, aren't you? THAT'S pathetic.
Did you used to shout stuff at them if you saw them in the street for the first few years after leaving school? No, don't deny it.......LOL
So what wonderful job do YOU do then f1? One that, of course, you COULD have got without ANY help from ANY teachers, EVER?
It's SOOO obvious you were though and that you were scared stiff of your teachers and now you ARE going to get your own back, aren't you? THAT'S pathetic.
Did you used to shout stuff at them if you saw them in the street for the first few years after leaving school? No, don't deny it.......LOL
So what wonderful job do YOU do then f1? One that, of course, you COULD have got without ANY help from ANY teachers, EVER?
I'm glad you don't teach my kids, posting nonsense like this. It's about time the teaching profession had a proper mechanism to manage out underperforming staff - a number of industries (mine included) deliberately weed out the bottom 10% every year. I can't remember the stats for teaching but isn't it something woeful like 6 were fired for poor performance in the last 10 years out of a pool of >100,000 in the profession? Those can can do, those can can't teach and all that......
Gordo
17 January 2012, 12:35 AM
#74
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I have been to many parents evenings with my two kids, as they have grown up, and to be honest. I have met some right a$$holes. My Son & Daughter maths teacher (luckily they had the same one) was the most fantastic bloke you could meet. A surfer in his spare time, managed to control the class with a whisper. On the other hand, he was in the minority. Most of the other teachers were not remotely interested. I do think they should be accountable, the same as all other professions. If you are not up to the job, you go. Sorry if that sounds harsh 
BTW, Son is at Uni studying Criminology and daughter is at college, studying Child Care.
BTW, Son is at Uni studying Criminology and daughter is at college, studying Child Care.
17 January 2012, 08:48 AM
#75
The fact teachers are not being held accountable for their performance is one reason the profession is not as highly-regarded by the public as it could be. Surely this move is a step in the right direction.
And as for teachers being a**holes, I had a few that were utter a**holes but they were also excellent teachers, so I don't think that is grounds for dismissal
And as for teachers being a**holes, I had a few that were utter a**holes but they were also excellent teachers, so I don't think that is grounds for dismissal
17 January 2012, 01:33 PM
#77
I'm glad you don't teach my kids, posting nonsense like this. It's about time the teaching profession had a proper mechanism to manage out underperforming staff - a number of industries (mine included) deliberately weed out the bottom 10% every year. I can't remember the stats for teaching but isn't it something woeful like 6 were fired for poor performance in the last 10 years out of a pool of >100,000 in the profession? Those can can do, those can can't teach and all that......
Gordo
Gordo
And as for posting nonsense, surely even YOU can see the irony when you put your last line?
17 January 2012, 02:26 PM
#78
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Many other jobs are the same though. For example, I started work yesterday at 7:30am, (I write computer software) got home at 7pm, started work again, and finally finished at about 11:30pm. Been doing this for the last 17 years on and off, often working weekends (including Sunday) as well. Don't get paid any overtime and only get 5 weeks holiday a year. Can't remember the last time I managed to "switch off" from the job...
17 January 2012, 03:05 PM
#79
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Many other jobs are the same though. For example, I started work yesterday at 7:30am, (I write computer software) got home at 7pm, started work again, and finally finished at about 11:30pm. Been doing this for the last 17 years on and off, often working weekends (including Sunday) as well. Don't get paid any overtime and only get 5 weeks holiday a year. Can't remember the last time I managed to "switch off" from the job...
I'm not by any means trying to say I have the worst job in the world, I just wanted to convey what it actually involves rather than what people outside of the profession think we do.
My mate was telling me about getting paid 'overtime' the other day, I felt like punching him in the face!
I feel like i've de-railed this thread a bit, sorry for that. Getting back on topic I think it's great that they will get rid of the crap teachers, on another note I also think it's good that from the Autumn there will be 'no notice' OSTED inspections!
17 January 2012, 03:37 PM
#81
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Now, if they know what they're going to offer, surely all they need to do is make a couple of confirmation phone calls amongst themselves to sort out a few minor details so they can send out the timetable on the 1st or 2nd day back and start the following week? Can't see what's so bleddy difficult.
Now if they have to wait until the start of term to sort out lots of thi8ngs then they should have said so. But they said (and this is every term) they know what they'll offer ......
Dave
17 January 2012, 03:44 PM
#82
Many other jobs are the same though. For example, I started work yesterday at 7:30am, (I write computer software) got home at 7pm, started work again, and finally finished at about 11:30pm. Been doing this for the last 17 years on and off, often working weekends (including Sunday) as well. Don't get paid any overtime and only get 5 weeks holiday a year. Can't remember the last time I managed to "switch off" from the job...
17 January 2012, 03:47 PM
#83
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Well, in that regard, teachers don't do much to dispel the idea! My son's school (primary) have after school clubs. Footie, touch Rugby, art club, etc etc and they change every term depending on how many attend, who's available, etc etc. At the end of term they know what they're going to offer for the next term - 'we'll send out the letter at the start of term'. It takes them until the 3rd week until the clubs start.
you think I was on about running a club after school? That's just a drop in the ocean with regards to what we do after the bell has gone.
17 January 2012, 03:47 PM
#84
Well, in that regard, teachers don't do much to dispel the idea! My son's school (primary) have after school clubs. Footie, touch Rugby, art club, etc etc and they change every term depending on how many attend, who's available, etc etc. At the end of term they know what they're going to offer for the next term - 'we'll send out the letter at the start of term'. It takes them until the 3rd week until the clubs start.
Now, if they know what they're going to offer, surely all they need to do is make a couple of confirmation phone calls amongst themselves to sort out a few minor details so they can send out the timetable on the 1st or 2nd day back and start the following week? Can't see what's so bleddy difficult.
Now if they have to wait until the start of term to sort out lots of thi8ngs then they should have said so. But they said (and this is every term) they know what they'll offer ......
Dave
Now, if they know what they're going to offer, surely all they need to do is make a couple of confirmation phone calls amongst themselves to sort out a few minor details so they can send out the timetable on the 1st or 2nd day back and start the following week? Can't see what's so bleddy difficult.
Now if they have to wait until the start of term to sort out lots of thi8ngs then they should have said so. But they said (and this is every term) they know what they'll offer ......
Dave
Only then can school stuff be accomodated.
Then the whole lot has to be agreed with the caretaking staff, who are on fixed hours and may not WANT the overtime.....
Plus as teachers' lives change, they may/may not be able to/want to offer outside stuff.
17 January 2012, 04:03 PM
#85
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Well, in that regard, teachers don't do much to dispel the idea! My son's school (primary) have after school clubs. Footie, touch Rugby, art club, etc etc and they change every term depending on how many attend, who's available, etc etc. At the end of term they know what they're going to offer for the next term - 'we'll send out the letter at the start of term'. It takes them until the 3rd week until the clubs start.
Now, if they know what they're going to offer, surely all they need to do is make a couple of confirmation phone calls amongst themselves to sort out a few minor details so they can send out the timetable on the 1st or 2nd day back and start the following week? Can't see what's so bleddy difficult.
Now if they have to wait until the start of term to sort out lots of thi8ngs then they should have said so. But they said (and this is every term) they know what they'll offer ......
Dave
Now, if they know what they're going to offer, surely all they need to do is make a couple of confirmation phone calls amongst themselves to sort out a few minor details so they can send out the timetable on the 1st or 2nd day back and start the following week? Can't see what's so bleddy difficult.
Now if they have to wait until the start of term to sort out lots of thi8ngs then they should have said so. But they said (and this is every term) they know what they'll offer ......
Dave
Joke btw before alcazar bursts a bllod vessel
17 January 2012, 04:25 PM
#86
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17 January 2012, 04:47 PM
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Dave, school "lettings" are decided on a termly basis. The school needs to know what other activities might want the premises and when, in order to bring in revenue, government orders, usage of public prmises.
Only then can school stuff be accomodated.
Then the whole lot has to be agreed with the caretaking staff, who are on fixed hours and may not WANT the overtime.....
Plus as teachers' lives change, they may/may not be able to/want to offer outside stuff.
Only then can school stuff be accomodated.
Then the whole lot has to be agreed with the caretaking staff, who are on fixed hours and may not WANT the overtime.....
Plus as teachers' lives change, they may/may not be able to/want to offer outside stuff.
Anyway, you obviously missed the point I was making. The school say they know what clubs they are going to offer at the end of the previous term. Short of people dropping dead, why does it then take 2 weeks to start them at the start of the next???? The teachers have all holiday to sort out the finer details and, as you and the other teachers say you don't stop work during the holidays, it'd be nice for them to actually do what they said they'd do!
As for 'after hours', well all but one club finishes at 4.15. That may be 'after hours' for the kids, but not for 99% of the rest of the working population ......
Dave
17 January 2012, 05:09 PM
#88
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Remember though that school starts before 9.00, I assume the 'rest of the working population' don't. That wasn't my point though anyway, you haven't really demonstrated an understanding of what we actually have to do Dave, our working day does not finish when the last kid has left the building.
17 January 2012, 06:27 PM
#90
Sometimes things promised during one term cannot be offered due to various circumstances which are out of the school's control.
For a kick-off, any after school activities are run by staff out of the goodness of their hearts. They are not remunerated, nor compensated in any way, (despite what Pete Lewis would have you think
), and they eat into that teacher's time, not only when he/she is present but organising, dealing with the kids before and after, even during the week, it all takes time that some teachers can ill afford. Especially those younger teachers for whom preparation work takes HOURS and they still try and fit in doing a club in order to catch someone's eye when they want promotion, or a move for family reasons.As for working hours, well I'm sorry but schools are there to educate kids, not as free child-minding centres.
I'm not meaning to be stroppy here Dave, but your reply to me was a little aggressive.
HTH