Welsh nationalism.
29 February 2012, 07:31 AM
#31
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It's funny how the traditional Welsh language has survived as has Celtic in Ireland, Scotland, Cornwall, but no one in England speaks Old English ( which again is derived from the West Germanic/Norse languages).
Why would that be?
I remember reading Beowulf at school and wondering what the bloody hell it was on about
Why would that be?
I remember reading Beowulf at school and wondering what the bloody hell it was on about
29 February 2012, 10:10 AM
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It's funny how the traditional Welsh language has survived as has Celtic in Ireland, Scotland, Cornwall, but no one in England speaks Old English ( which again is derived from the West Germanic/Norse languages).
Why would that be?
I remember reading Beowulf at school and wondering what the bloody hell it was on about
Why would that be?
I remember reading Beowulf at school and wondering what the bloody hell it was on about
29 February 2012, 11:24 AM
#33
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It's funny how the traditional Welsh language has survived as has Celtic in Ireland, Scotland, Cornwall, but no one in England speaks Old English ( which again is derived from the West Germanic/Norse languages).
Why would that be?
I remember reading Beowulf at school and wondering what the bloody hell it was on about
Why would that be?
I remember reading Beowulf at school and wondering what the bloody hell it was on about
It's just the way language morphs and evolves.
I think what you mean is where did the Celtic languages that were in England go? Well they mostly disappeared with the Anglo-Saxon migrations/invasion. You had Cumbric in Cumbria I think until the middle ages but it eventually died out.
Languages like Welsh only exist now because the state protects and promotes them. If left to natural 'linguistic forces' it would probably only be spoken by a handful of people in North Wales.
29 February 2012, 11:35 AM
#34
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That's because English has served a purpose, it evolved to fit needs. Welsh otoh is a complete remnant language spoken by a tiny amount of people until the state started putting money in to save it. Now Welsh is never going to evolve or anything because the state through the Welsh language board decides what Welsh is and teach its fixed version of it.
29 February 2012, 11:43 AM
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Chip is right, the Romans came into the UK to stop the Druidic religion and healers (not the new-age hippies, or 18th century Welsh idiots). And they forced them up from the UK into Anglesey when Budica/Bodecea attacked London and the Romans swept back down after killing the lot to wipe out the upstart bird from the Iceni Tribe.
But Celt is aterm that they shouldn`t use, we were ancient Britons, speaking Brythonic, which Welsh and Gaelic are descended, unlike English being from German hehehe.
That was stage 1.
Stage 2 was the systematic destruction of the Welsh Language and Welsh Identity. Language not allowed to be spoken, national dress gotten rid of to the point they created some crap in the 1780`s to make us Appear Welsh.
There are more castles in Wales, and per square mile, than any country on Earth. So was that about defending the Welsh or oppressing them?? Seeing as they are a Northern French Design I`ll let you do the calculation lol.
But that is the past, its our history. It should not be forgotten or air-brushed out of history, but we should not base current politics upon it either. We in the UK have a distinct culture which is different to the continent, but mutually dependant. We are a collection of peoples who have so much history of war, love to pick holes in each other, but when the cookie crumbles are one nation. Any person who suggests we should split up is a pie in the sky dreamer, and 900-1000 years out of date.
But as I said we should know as much about our own histories as we can, as not everything was Anglo-Saxon, or Norman, or even Roman in origin. We were a diverse and rich culture long before that, and history has tried to eradicate this.
But Celt is aterm that they shouldn`t use, we were ancient Britons, speaking Brythonic, which Welsh and Gaelic are descended, unlike English being from German hehehe.
That was stage 1.
Stage 2 was the systematic destruction of the Welsh Language and Welsh Identity. Language not allowed to be spoken, national dress gotten rid of to the point they created some crap in the 1780`s to make us Appear Welsh.
There are more castles in Wales, and per square mile, than any country on Earth. So was that about defending the Welsh or oppressing them?? Seeing as they are a Northern French Design I`ll let you do the calculation lol.
But that is the past, its our history. It should not be forgotten or air-brushed out of history, but we should not base current politics upon it either. We in the UK have a distinct culture which is different to the continent, but mutually dependant. We are a collection of peoples who have so much history of war, love to pick holes in each other, but when the cookie crumbles are one nation. Any person who suggests we should split up is a pie in the sky dreamer, and 900-1000 years out of date.
But as I said we should know as much about our own histories as we can, as not everything was Anglo-Saxon, or Norman, or even Roman in origin. We were a diverse and rich culture long before that, and history has tried to eradicate this.
Also where is your evidence of a welsh identity prior to the 19th century?
29 February 2012, 11:57 AM
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That's because English has served a purpose, it evolved to fit needs. Welsh otoh is a complete remnant language spoken by a tiny amount of people until the state started putting money in to save it. Now Welsh is never going to evolve or anything because the state through the Welsh language board decides what Welsh is and teach its fixed version of it.
North Wales "academic Welsh" is the problem here, its like RP in English, its elitest and backwards. Take South Wales, more people speak Welsh in west wales, its something that is natural, it sounds natural and not harsh and contrived like North Wales welsh. If you didn`t know the language it almost sounds French.
The state got involved by North Wales academics saying "their" perfect Welsh isn`t surviving, as the school system PUNISHED you for speaking it, writing it, even the suspicion of you using the language you`d be punished. So is there any wonder that there was a reversal to promote it? But they went the wrong way instead of in school it should be taught at nursery school, as that would set the child up for learning many languages, like the chinese/asian families do by keeping their language of ethnic origin.
English didn`t "serve a purpose" its was imposed by force, the law was written in it, the non speakers being put at a sub human level to them.
Take this as an example, if you wore the same clothes as the natives spoke the same language and were out in town after 6pm doing your normal business, you could have been executed, there would be no trial, you couldn`t plead with any one, you`d be treated like a cockroach. Where as if you wore English clothes, and spoke English, you could do what you wanted, when you wanted, had the courts to fight for you with the law.
So if you wanted to live what would you do?? Not as if you could complain as if you did you`d be executed, lol.
So after 900 years of trying to be stamped out, the fact its STILL going shows its more history and affinity to our lands. I mean just read our national anthem, is it pledging allegiance to a German, and making individual thought irrelevant, or looking back through family ties to the land which we were born on, ours root come from, and shapes us. Its about we being a part of our landscape, not just something for our convenience.
29 February 2012, 12:05 PM
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The stories of the Mabinogion appear in either or both of two medieval Welsh manuscripts, the White Book of Rhydderch or Llyfr Gwyn Rhydderch, written circa 1350, and the Red Book of Hergest or Llyfr Coch Hergest, written about 1382–1410, though texts or fragments of some of the tales have been preserved in earlier 13th century and later manuscripts. Scholars agree that the tales are older than the existing manuscripts, but disagree over just how much older. It is clear that the different texts included in the Mabinogion originated at different times. Debate has focused on the dating of the Four Branches of the Mabinogi. Sir Ifor Williams offered a date prior to 1100, based on linguistic and historical arguments, while later Saunders Lewis set forth a number of arguments for a date between 1170 and 1190; Thomas Charles-Edwards, in a paper published in 1970, discussed the strengths and weaknesses of both viewpoints, and while critical of the arguments of both scholars, noted that the language of the stories best fits the 11th century, although much more work is needed. More recently, Patrick Sims-Williams argued for a plausible range of about 1060 to 1200, which seems to be the current scholarly consensus.
The Red Lady of Paviland is the oldest burial in Western Europe. You look to the England as the centre of the universe, Wales and Ireland were the centre of the learning whilst the English were having the dark ages, with people coming here from Rome to learn early Christianity, with ancient bibles in Rome written in Ireland and Wales that is head and shoulders above anything produced before and after else where.
Just because you didn`t learn it in school with your English battle dates, and colonial conquest doesn`t mean its not true lol.
And no most of Europe doesn`t speak a Germanic language lol. Just because English is based on Germanic, doesn`t mean all are.
Where is the biggest roman town in the UK?? Caerleon in Wales, why would Rome spend so much on making a place like this in a backwards and non entity, and why not in London (which was only a crossing point), its because Wales had an ancient and diverse culture that the Romans wanted to integrate into itself.
Last edited by Jimbob; 29 February 2012 at 12:08 PM.
29 February 2012, 12:10 PM
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The state got involved by North Wales academics saying "their" perfect Welsh isn`t surviving, as the school system PUNISHED you for speaking it, writing it, even the suspicion of you using the language you`d be punished. So is there any wonder that there was a reversal to promote it?
I've got Welsh buddies from Cardiff and nobody pointed a gun to their head and made them spaek English. They would never speak Welsh because it is useless to them.
Take this as an example, if you wore the same clothes as the natives spoke the same language and were out in town after 6pm doing your normal business, you could have been executed, there would be no trial, you couldn`t plead with any one, you`d be treated like a cockroach. Where as if you wore English clothes, and spoke English, you could do what you wanted, when you wanted, had the courts to fight for you with the law.
So if you wanted to live what would you do?? Not as if you could complain as if you did you`d be executed, lol.
So if you wanted to live what would you do?? Not as if you could complain as if you did you`d be executed, lol.
At the start of the 20th century about 20% spoke Welsh. I wonder what the figure would be now if it were not for the states help?
29 February 2012, 12:14 PM
#39
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With a spoken language and culture its harder to track down, but the Mabinogion is a collection of stories written down prior to 1100AD.
The stories of the Mabinogion appear in either or both of two medieval Welsh manuscripts, the White Book of Rhydderch or Llyfr Gwyn Rhydderch, written circa 1350, and the Red Book of Hergest or Llyfr Coch Hergest, written about 1382–1410, though texts or fragments of some of the tales have been preserved in earlier 13th century and later manuscripts. Scholars agree that the tales are older than the existing manuscripts, but disagree over just how much older. It is clear that the different texts included in the Mabinogion originated at different times. Debate has focused on the dating of the Four Branches of the Mabinogi. Sir Ifor Williams offered a date prior to 1100, based on linguistic and historical arguments, while later Saunders Lewis set forth a number of arguments for a date between 1170 and 1190; Thomas Charles-Edwards, in a paper published in 1970, discussed the strengths and weaknesses of both viewpoints, and while critical of the arguments of both scholars, noted that the language of the stories best fits the 11th century, although much more work is needed. More recently, Patrick Sims-Williams argued for a plausible range of about 1060 to 1200, which seems to be the current scholarly consensus.
The Red Lady of Paviland is the oldest burial in Western Europe. You look to the England as the centre of the universe, Wales and Ireland were the centre of the learning whilst the English were having the dark ages, with people coming here from Rome to learn early Christianity, with ancient bibles in Rome written in Ireland and Wales that is head and shoulders above anything produced before and after else where.
Just because you didn`t learn it in school with your English battle dates, and colonial conquest doesn`t mean its not true lol.
And no most of Europe doesn`t speak a Germanic language lol. Just because English is based on Germanic, doesn`t mean all are.
Where is the biggest roman town in the UK?? Caerleon in Wales, why would Rome spend so much on making a place like this in a backwards and non entity, and why not in London (which was only a crossing point), its because Wales had an ancient and diverse culture that the Romans wanted to integrate into itself.
The stories of the Mabinogion appear in either or both of two medieval Welsh manuscripts, the White Book of Rhydderch or Llyfr Gwyn Rhydderch, written circa 1350, and the Red Book of Hergest or Llyfr Coch Hergest, written about 1382–1410, though texts or fragments of some of the tales have been preserved in earlier 13th century and later manuscripts. Scholars agree that the tales are older than the existing manuscripts, but disagree over just how much older. It is clear that the different texts included in the Mabinogion originated at different times. Debate has focused on the dating of the Four Branches of the Mabinogi. Sir Ifor Williams offered a date prior to 1100, based on linguistic and historical arguments, while later Saunders Lewis set forth a number of arguments for a date between 1170 and 1190; Thomas Charles-Edwards, in a paper published in 1970, discussed the strengths and weaknesses of both viewpoints, and while critical of the arguments of both scholars, noted that the language of the stories best fits the 11th century, although much more work is needed. More recently, Patrick Sims-Williams argued for a plausible range of about 1060 to 1200, which seems to be the current scholarly consensus.
The Red Lady of Paviland is the oldest burial in Western Europe. You look to the England as the centre of the universe, Wales and Ireland were the centre of the learning whilst the English were having the dark ages, with people coming here from Rome to learn early Christianity, with ancient bibles in Rome written in Ireland and Wales that is head and shoulders above anything produced before and after else where.
Just because you didn`t learn it in school with your English battle dates, and colonial conquest doesn`t mean its not true lol.
And no most of Europe doesn`t speak a Germanic language lol. Just because English is based on Germanic, doesn`t mean all are.
Where is the biggest roman town in the UK?? Caerleon in Wales, why would Rome spend so much on making a place like this in a backwards and non entity, and why not in London (which was only a crossing point), its because Wales had an ancient and diverse culture that the Romans wanted to integrate into itself.
Just because there were people in Wales in 100AD or whatever and there was culture there does not mean they had a 'welsh identity'.
I could draw a 100 km by 100 km square in North England and call it Zogg. Then find evidence that 'the people of zogg' spoke this or that language in 100 AD and wrote some poems. Does that mean that the people of zogg had an identity? Zoggish?
29 February 2012, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Jimbob
The Red Lady of Paviland is the oldest burial in Western Europe. You look to the England as the centre of the universe, Wales and Ireland were the centre of the learning whilst the English were having the dark ages, with people coming here from Rome to learn early Christianity, with ancient bibles in Rome written in Ireland and Wales that is head and shoulders above anything produced before and after else where.
29 February 2012, 12:27 PM
#41
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Your argument has no foundation and English is less useful than Chinese, so may as well forget the language and start learning Chinese.
That is the most spurious argument ever. Welsh being from the Celtic language group is similar to nothing else worldwide (except the rest of the Celtic languages). If you want Kids to get good at learning languages why would you chose something so peculiar? Might as well teach a Romance or Germanic language as you then learn about a whole language family when you learn one.
And Germanic languages are based on Latin, not german. Perhaps if your people had more spine and didn`t let any invader take over then you`d be still speaking original Brythonic. Instead of Danish/German/Latin/French/enter your invader here.
So if it was state patronage, that has only been since the late 1980`s, and as it is now since 2000, I was speaking Welsh long before that, and my grandfather born in Okehampton in Devon in 1908 moved here when 4 spoke fluent by 6 Welsh in a time when schools punished you for doing so, as EVERYONE spoke welsh, and he had to translate for the family. And as people became more mobile it was the English person abroad mentality that "they should speak English cos I do".
29 February 2012, 12:32 PM
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I'm still waiting for evidence of a welsh identity.
Just because there were people in Wales in 100AD or whatever and there was culture there does not mean they had a 'welsh identity'.
I could draw a 100 km by 100 km square in North England and call it Zogg. Then find evidence that 'the people of zogg' spoke this or that language in 100 AD and wrote some poems. Does that mean that the people of zogg had an identity? Zoggish?
Just because there were people in Wales in 100AD or whatever and there was culture there does not mean they had a 'welsh identity'.
I could draw a 100 km by 100 km square in North England and call it Zogg. Then find evidence that 'the people of zogg' spoke this or that language in 100 AD and wrote some poems. Does that mean that the people of zogg had an identity? Zoggish?
We were all Welsh as a people, no matter where from or ruled by which ever prince, we were all the same people.
This is something the English can`t get their heads around, as they are colonialists and conqured by everyone, and not from the lands they are on.
Being Welsh is customs, traditions, a way of thinking. And in the past there was no Identity as we were all the one people, its only a colonialist that would say that as Us and Them, Black and White, and lets not start that, as we know what the English did all over the world.
Even the name Welsh is English for Outsider lol.
There has always been a borderland your English history will tell you that. And just remember that the English had many kings but still called themselves English, and just because they were amalgamated into one kingdom doesn`t make that more important than, a country with 3-4 regional kings. And they only called themselves English as they weren`t from this country so saw themselves as different to the native population.
Please come back with some actual facts.
Last edited by Jimbob; 29 February 2012 at 12:39 PM.
29 February 2012, 12:44 PM
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English is not less useful than Chinese, it is more widely spoken both as first and second language.
The Chinese are all learning English BTW.
But that is exactly how Chinese is taught. If you teach a child gaelic it will be PROVEN to pick up chinese quicker, and seeing as that language is going to overtake most european languages.
And Germanic languages are based on Latin, not german. Perhaps if your people had more spine and didn`t let any invader take over then you`d be still speaking original Brythonic. Instead of Danish/German/Latin/French/enter your invader here.
And Germanic languages are based on Latin, not german. Perhaps if your people had more spine and didn`t let any invader take over then you`d be still speaking original Brythonic. Instead of Danish/German/Latin/French/enter your invader here.
Germanic language are not based on Latin but they use Latin alphabet.
No, an invader organically making the language naturalised. I don`t think so. Just as every invader they make you speak their language. The Normans had Latin, and weren`t Invaders as such, but William saw himself as being left the crown after the death of the king, if you actually knew your history you`d know that, but even then they imposed French Lords in place of those who wouldn`t comply. And French was the language of Government, Latin for Church and Law.
Or that the native language would become slowly modified over time and become almost the same?
Look at how English has changed from old English. English has the most words of any language in the world and many of those words are borrowed from other languages. Something like shampoo is just anglicized Hindi chāmpo. This is an example of language changing organically, something like the great vowel shift which was the change from middle to modern english? just happened organically, not some act of fiat or tyrany. Same now with us adopting Americanism etc in our speech.
So if it was state patronage, that has only been since the late 1980`s, and as it is now since 2000, I was speaking Welsh long before that, and my grandfather born in Okehampton in Devon in 1908 moved here when 4 spoke fluent by 6 Welsh in a time when schools punished you for doing so, as EVERYONE spoke welsh, and he had to translate for the family. And as people became more mobile it was the English person abroad mentality that "they should speak English cos I do".
29 February 2012, 12:46 PM
#44
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The Welsh identity your looking at is different to the Welsh as a nation.
We were all Welsh as a people, no matter where from or ruled by which ever prince, we were all the same people.
This is something the English can`t get their heads around, as they are colonialists and conqured by everyone, and not from the lands they are on.
Being Welsh is customs, traditions, a way of thinking. And in the past there was no Identity as we were all the one people, its only a colonialist that would say that as Us and Them, Black and White, and lets not start that, as we know what the English did all over the world.
Even the name Welsh is English for Outsider lol.
There has always been a borderland your English history will tell you that. And just remember that the English had many kings but still called themselves English, and just because they were amalgamated into one kingdom doesn`t make that more important than, a country with 3-4 regional kings. And they only called themselves English as they weren`t from this country so saw themselves as different to the native population.
Please come back with some actual facts.
We were all Welsh as a people, no matter where from or ruled by which ever prince, we were all the same people.
This is something the English can`t get their heads around, as they are colonialists and conqured by everyone, and not from the lands they are on.
Being Welsh is customs, traditions, a way of thinking. And in the past there was no Identity as we were all the one people, its only a colonialist that would say that as Us and Them, Black and White, and lets not start that, as we know what the English did all over the world.
Even the name Welsh is English for Outsider lol.
There has always been a borderland your English history will tell you that. And just remember that the English had many kings but still called themselves English, and just because they were amalgamated into one kingdom doesn`t make that more important than, a country with 3-4 regional kings. And they only called themselves English as they weren`t from this country so saw themselves as different to the native population.
Please come back with some actual facts.
29 February 2012, 01:01 PM
#45
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I'm still waiting for evidence of a welsh identity.
Just because there were people in Wales in 100AD or whatever and there was culture there does not mean they had a 'welsh identity'.
I could draw a 100 km by 100 km square in North England and call it Zogg. Then find evidence that 'the people of zogg' spoke this or that language in 100 AD and wrote some poems. Does that mean that the people of zogg had an identity? Zoggish?
Just because there were people in Wales in 100AD or whatever and there was culture there does not mean they had a 'welsh identity'.
I could draw a 100 km by 100 km square in North England and call it Zogg. Then find evidence that 'the people of zogg' spoke this or that language in 100 AD and wrote some poems. Does that mean that the people of zogg had an identity? Zoggish?
Anyway, my maternal grandparents were Pengillys, I spent long periods of my youth playing on Dartmoor with its stone circles and ethereal atmosphere, my football team is Argyle and when people were choosing between Rangers and Celtic at school I chose Celtic without knowing the sectarian and nationalist implications. And Jesus hung out with Celts and Merlin knew shít. I just think it's cooler to be a Celt'. Anglo-Saxons seem a bit uptight and now the whole thing's been highjacked by a succession of wànkers from the NF to the BNP and the EDL Muslamic ray-guns lot.....I'm jumping ship. At least Plaid Cymru have some self-respect and credibility. I'm going for a mooch around Llantwit Major tomorrow.
Last edited by JTaylor; 29 February 2012 at 01:09 PM.
29 February 2012, 01:05 PM
#46
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Apparently theres some small tribe in South America that speak Welsh. Some kind of missionary journey years and years ago.
Not sure its true but is what I've heard.
Not sure its true but is what I've heard.
29 February 2012, 01:14 PM
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gf
And as for our identity.
In the 16th century Henry VIII, himself of Welsh extraction, passed the "Laws in Wales Acts" aiming to fully incorporate Wales into the Kingdom of England.
Why would a King of England (of Welsh extraction), pass laws for a nation that wasn`t clearly defined and known of??
Please go actually read some recently written history books, and not the history of the UK by A N Ignorant.
Algebra is a different subject.
English is not less useful than Chinese, it is more widely spoken both as first and second language.
The Chinese are all learning English BTW.
Only because of the inability of the Western Countries to be able to learn any language. And the Americans use it in computer programming.
You might as well teach the kid Klingon then. I still say it would be more useful to teach something from a more widely spoken language group due to the obvious synergys.
Klingon would be far more useful as an exercise for learning something as if we did ever find an alien species, the rest of the World would learn to communicate whilst the English would speak, just really slowly and loudly.
So it wouldn't occur to you that if faced with a massive migration/invasion of people who spoke a different language, that it might makes sense to start speaking the same language if you wanted to get along in the new reality?
Or that the native language would become slowly modified over time and become almost the same?
In that case why aren`t you speaking arabic, polish, or chinese??
Look at how English has changed from old English. English has the most words of any language in the world and many of those words are borrowed from other languages. Something like shampoo is just anglicized Hindi chāmpo. This is an example of language changing organically, something like the great vowel shift which was the change from middle to modern english? just happened organically, not some act of fiat or tyrany. Same now with us adopting Americanism etc in our speech.
Yeah and you think English only does this??
lmfao, you really believe this don`t you??
Exactly. You`ll be hard pressed to find someone in England who can write. See some of the posts you get on some more mainstream sites, and you really have to question whether people are de-evolving.
Good for you. If you want to speak Welsh then it is up to you, just I think the state shouldn't waste money being culturally biased in this way. Just my opinion.
So why do schools MAKE you study French?? Make you study Religious Studies. Tbh I`m glad that they teach us welsh as we are Welsh, and we can openly be proud of our nation and language.
I`d rather we learnt our nations languae than study Shakespeare, as that has no relevance to modern society, as NO-ONE uses the language.
English is not less useful than Chinese, it is more widely spoken both as first and second language.
The Chinese are all learning English BTW.
Only because of the inability of the Western Countries to be able to learn any language. And the Americans use it in computer programming.
But that is exactly how Chinese is taught. If you teach a child gaelic it will be PROVEN to pick up chinese quicker, and seeing as that language is going to overtake most european languages.
And Germanic languages are based on Latin, not german. Perhaps if your people had more spine and didn`t let any invader take over then you`d be still speaking original Brythonic. Instead of Danish/German/Latin/French/enter your invader here.
And Germanic languages are based on Latin, not german. Perhaps if your people had more spine and didn`t let any invader take over then you`d be still speaking original Brythonic. Instead of Danish/German/Latin/French/enter your invader here.
Klingon would be far more useful as an exercise for learning something as if we did ever find an alien species, the rest of the World would learn to communicate whilst the English would speak, just really slowly and loudly.
No, an invader organically making the language naturalised. I don`t think so. Just as every invader they make you speak their language. The Normans had Latin, and weren`t Invaders as such, but William saw himself as being left the crown after the death of the king, if you actually knew your history you`d know that, but even then they imposed French Lords in place of those who wouldn`t comply. And French was the language of Government, Latin for Church and Law.
Or that the native language would become slowly modified over time and become almost the same?
In that case why aren`t you speaking arabic, polish, or chinese??
Look at how English has changed from old English. English has the most words of any language in the world and many of those words are borrowed from other languages. Something like shampoo is just anglicized Hindi chāmpo. This is an example of language changing organically, something like the great vowel shift which was the change from middle to modern english? just happened organically, not some act of fiat or tyrany. Same now with us adopting Americanism etc in our speech.
Yeah and you think English only does this??
lmfao, you really believe this don`t you??
So if it was state patronage, that has only been since the late 1980`s, and as it is now since 2000, I was speaking Welsh long before that, and my grandfather born in Okehampton in Devon in 1908 moved here when 4 spoke fluent by 6 Welsh in a time when schools punished you for doing so, as EVERYONE spoke welsh, and he had to translate for the family. And as people became more mobile it was the English person abroad mentality that "they should speak English cos I do".
So why do schools MAKE you study French?? Make you study Religious Studies. Tbh I`m glad that they teach us welsh as we are Welsh, and we can openly be proud of our nation and language.
I`d rather we learnt our nations languae than study Shakespeare, as that has no relevance to modern society, as NO-ONE uses the language.
In the 16th century Henry VIII, himself of Welsh extraction, passed the "Laws in Wales Acts" aiming to fully incorporate Wales into the Kingdom of England.
Why would a King of England (of Welsh extraction), pass laws for a nation that wasn`t clearly defined and known of??
Please go actually read some recently written history books, and not the history of the UK by A N Ignorant.
29 February 2012, 01:17 PM
#48
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The Mayflower sailed with a lot of Welsh religious people on, and Manhattan was bought by a Welshman for a beaded necklace.
29 February 2012, 01:29 PM
#49
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Patagonia, I`ve met someone from there and their Welsh was flawless, no English drop ins, pure "academic" Welsh, was VERY strange. No regional accent, no regional twangs, just Welsh in an Argentinian accent lol.
The Mayflower sailed with a lot of Welsh religious people on, and Manhattan was bought by a Welshman for a beaded necklace.
The Mayflower sailed with a lot of Welsh religious people on, and Manhattan was bought by a Welshman for a beaded necklace.
29 February 2012, 01:43 PM
#50
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The Mayflower set sail from my hometown of Plymouth and I used to play for Mayflower FC and our pitch was adjacent to Argyle's ground (for whom I also played as a youth and who of course have deeply Celtic roots). You may find the history of the Plymouth Brethren rather interesting, if you've not read it previously.
They also were in the second and third waves of migrants, and also helped rebuild the settlement after famine/disease.
But just goes to show how far they will go to get away from England lol.
Originally Posted by Welsh Americans
Twenty percent of the Pilgrim Fathers were Welsh, as was the captain of the Mayflower.
How many know that almost fifty percent of the signers of the declaration of Independence were Welsh or of Welsh descent, ---as were nine presidents of the United States---and that many of the Universities and colleges such as Yale, Princeton, Brown, William and Mary, Virginia, Johns Hopkins and Maryland were founded by Welshmen.
The man who funded the war of independence was Robert Morris, Pennsylvania was founded by William Penn and Rhode Island by Roger Williams. All were Welsh. It is strange indeed that such a small country as Wales, so many are hardly aware of it’s existence, has contributed so much more in proportion to it’s size than any other nation, and stranger still, so little has been written of it. Oh, Yes, the next time you are in the capitol and feel like climbing the Washington monument stairway, about halfway up there is a stone inscribed;
How many know that almost fifty percent of the signers of the declaration of Independence were Welsh or of Welsh descent, ---as were nine presidents of the United States---and that many of the Universities and colleges such as Yale, Princeton, Brown, William and Mary, Virginia, Johns Hopkins and Maryland were founded by Welshmen.
The man who funded the war of independence was Robert Morris, Pennsylvania was founded by William Penn and Rhode Island by Roger Williams. All were Welsh. It is strange indeed that such a small country as Wales, so many are hardly aware of it’s existence, has contributed so much more in proportion to it’s size than any other nation, and stranger still, so little has been written of it. Oh, Yes, the next time you are in the capitol and feel like climbing the Washington monument stairway, about halfway up there is a stone inscribed;
Last edited by Jimbob; 29 February 2012 at 01:48 PM.
29 February 2012, 01:49 PM
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You make it sound like 'a people' just arises spontaneously and in their mystical utopia of romantic nationalism elect some beloved King to lead them to peace and prosperity. Then the nasty English King came along and oppressed them.
29 February 2012, 01:56 PM
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Something like Scots for example has morphed from being quite different to English to being basically a regional accent with a few different words.
But Welsh has made itself into a state sponsored language now and so it is a political phenomenon as well. How does Welsh change, adapt, morph etc as any language should do when a bureaucracy (welsh language board) decides what is correct welsh and what is not?
So why do schools MAKE you study French?? Make you study Religious Studies. Tbh I`m glad that they teach us welsh as we are Welsh, and we can openly be proud of our nation and language.
I`d rather we learnt our nations languae than study Shakespeare, as that has no relevance to modern society, as NO-ONE uses the language.
I`d rather we learnt our nations languae than study Shakespeare, as that has no relevance to modern society, as NO-ONE uses the language.
29 February 2012, 02:11 PM
#54
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He passed laws for a Kingdom, it doesn't mean there was 'a people' with an 'identity' living in said Kingdom.
You make it sound like 'a people' just arises spontaneously and in their mystical utopia of romantic nationalism elect some beloved King to lead them to peace and prosperity. Then the nasty English King came along and oppressed them.
You make it sound like 'a people' just arises spontaneously and in their mystical utopia of romantic nationalism elect some beloved King to lead them to peace and prosperity. Then the nasty English King came along and oppressed them.
The English never had their own identity as we have one, as their take everyone elses. lol.
Take your username its a very French set up, as in Anthony De-Montfort.
Wow did we shoot them, drive them off their lands and sell them as slaves?? Hmm no, but your lot did lol. We don`t have blood on our hands like the English do.
We did a trade for it, instead of shooting them dead and just taking it.
Last edited by Jimbob; 29 February 2012 at 02:12 PM.
29 February 2012, 02:18 PM
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I`ll leave you to it now, as its dark here down the pit and I`ve 3,000,000 tonnes of coal to shift, and then male voice choir practice, then I have to go to my state sponsored Welsh classes, all in my Trotsky inspired fantasy.
29 February 2012, 03:19 PM
#56
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We were one people, different leaders and each slightly different, but one people. When the English did their usual thing, they were the Them in the English`s Us and them usual practise.
The English never had their own identity as we have one, as their take everyone elses. lol.
Take your username its a very French set up, as in Anthony De-Montfort.
The English never had their own identity as we have one, as their take everyone elses. lol.
Take your username its a very French set up, as in Anthony De-Montfort.
FYI I don't see how welsh settlers in North America behaved any better than anyone else?
29 February 2012, 10:59 PM
#58
29 February 2012, 11:09 PM
#60
Catching up on this thread it's interesting that everyone who is Welsh feels they have some form of welsh identity, but TdW still insists "no you don't". Surely national identity is what people feel, and it has naff all to do with history.