Bugeye to 450BHP
27 April 2012 | 04:28 PM
#31
27 April 2012 | 04:48 PM
#32
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From: The Terry Crews of moderation. P P P P P P POWER!!
Hi Guys,
i'm not very mechanic/engine minded, so i'm seeking advice. I have done a few searches, and cant understand exactly what needs to done/bought.
I have a 2001 bug WRX, which i'm wanting to eventually get up to 450bhp in stages.
I know i should upgrade suspension, gearbox and breaking, and i've started to do that already.
My question is, is it worth upgrading the WRX engine components to be able to handle 450BHP, and if it is, what bits will i need?
Or is it better/easier/cheaper to just swap the whole engine for an STI engine?
As always, thanks to everyone for sharring your knowledge and know how!
i'm not very mechanic/engine minded, so i'm seeking advice. I have done a few searches, and cant understand exactly what needs to done/bought.
I have a 2001 bug WRX, which i'm wanting to eventually get up to 450bhp in stages.
I know i should upgrade suspension, gearbox and breaking, and i've started to do that already.
My question is, is it worth upgrading the WRX engine components to be able to handle 450BHP, and if it is, what bits will i need?
Or is it better/easier/cheaper to just swap the whole engine for an STI engine?
As always, thanks to everyone for sharring your knowledge and know how!
Basically circa 12k!
Turbo for that level costs 1.3k alone. Engine internals will have to go, ancilliaries will pretty much all need upgrading, gearbox will have to go, suspension will have to go, brakes will have to go etc...
Speak to someone like David at APi for the low down.
Don't be discouraged. It's a great goal (from someone with a 470bhp Hawk) but don't think for one minute it's simple or cheap!
27 April 2012 | 04:59 PM
#33
What do you need?
Basically circa 12k!
Turbo for that level costs 1.3k alone. Engine internals will have to go, ancilliaries will pretty much all need upgrading, gearbox will have to go, suspension will have to go, brakes will have to go etc...
Speak to someone like David at APi for the low down.
Don't be discouraged. It's a great goal (from someone with a 470bhp Hawk) but don't think for one minute it's simple or cheap!
Basically circa 12k!
Turbo for that level costs 1.3k alone. Engine internals will have to go, ancilliaries will pretty much all need upgrading, gearbox will have to go, suspension will have to go, brakes will have to go etc...
Speak to someone like David at APi for the low down.
Don't be discouraged. It's a great goal (from someone with a 470bhp Hawk) but don't think for one minute it's simple or cheap!
I'm glad i asked/started this thread, i have a much better idea what i want needs to be done, and realise i might need to bring my goal/project down a peg.
27 April 2012 | 05:07 PM
#34
I am, Thats why I said not sure what to do yet, looking up on all the info on them and the cost of course! I have been told the synvecs is the best but lots of £££. like you said, Pro and cons....
27 April 2012 | 05:09 PM
#35
I'm doing the same, this forum and its members have been amazing in sharring knowledge and information!
27 April 2012 | 05:19 PM
#36
Well for what its worth you have many options, of which there is the:
Limit pushing 450bhp
Relaibale 450bhp
Bullet Proof 450bhp
Limit pushing has got be running a stock STI engine, and as your staying with the WRX (although you really need to sell up regadless of pride). Many will tell you that they can do it, and in some cases have lasted longer than owner had anticipated before moving onto fully forged or 2.1/2.5's etc.
Reliable in my opinion is get an STI engine and uprate it including future proof gaskets, oil pump etc, or self built 2.1.
Bullet Proof has got to be a 2.1 from one of the sponsors on here who know the ins & outs.
Ive got to say it again though, you really need to consider selling the WRX in place of an STI. Im not sure you would want to be running an LPG system through a 2.1 anyway, I dont think they are advanced enough imho, and I doubt any Subaru builder with offer any warrantee on an engine if you were using LPG (yet to be argued
)
Ball park figures for what ever your route you decide to take:
Good example STI £6'000+
or
6 Speed box £1'500+
6 Speed Clutch £700
2.1 Stroker £3'000 built/fitted?
Turbo £1'000
Brakes £700-£1'200
Headers ect £400
ECU and mapping £1'000+ (although you can run the OEM ecu to 450bhp)
The list goes on, fueling, suspension, handling, intake, intercooler, injectors, exhaust,
Good luck
Rob
ps- for what its worth, ive had over 400 on a standard engine, but dont get hooked on numbers, sometime its all about how it handles and how you drive
Limit pushing 450bhp
Relaibale 450bhp
Bullet Proof 450bhp
Limit pushing has got be running a stock STI engine, and as your staying with the WRX (although you really need to sell up regadless of pride). Many will tell you that they can do it, and in some cases have lasted longer than owner had anticipated before moving onto fully forged or 2.1/2.5's etc.
Reliable in my opinion is get an STI engine and uprate it including future proof gaskets, oil pump etc, or self built 2.1.
Bullet Proof has got to be a 2.1 from one of the sponsors on here who know the ins & outs.
Ive got to say it again though, you really need to consider selling the WRX in place of an STI. Im not sure you would want to be running an LPG system through a 2.1 anyway, I dont think they are advanced enough imho, and I doubt any Subaru builder with offer any warrantee on an engine if you were using LPG (yet to be argued
)Ball park figures for what ever your route you decide to take:
Good example STI £6'000+
or
6 Speed box £1'500+
6 Speed Clutch £700
2.1 Stroker £3'000 built/fitted?
Turbo £1'000
Brakes £700-£1'200
Headers ect £400
ECU and mapping £1'000+ (although you can run the OEM ecu to 450bhp)
The list goes on, fueling, suspension, handling, intake, intercooler, injectors, exhaust,
Good luck
Rob
ps- for what its worth, ive had over 400 on a standard engine, but dont get hooked on numbers, sometime its all about how it handles and how you drive
Last edited by Rob Day; 27 April 2012 at 05:22 PM.
27 April 2012 | 05:19 PM
#37
Thats sounds cool but I don't want quite that much power (yet
) If I go down that route I will defo need sti box and diff. MD321H would be better for the power I am looking for but as I said, still looking at options and doing my resarch. Syvecs ecu is so much more money than the simtec. not sure what I will gain from paying the extra pounds.
27 April 2012 | 05:20 PM
#38
Right here's my break down, though costs will vary. This is also someone else doing it for me. CDB fully prepared £700 ish
Full engine build including the following:
Wiseco pistons with uprated pins
K1 H beam rods
ACL race bearings
New nitrided crank
RCM uprated oil pump
ARP head stud kit
Genuine Subaru gaskets and seals
Multi layer head gaskets
Cosworth baffle plate
New water pump
New belt tensioner
New belt
Fully overhauled cylinder heads
Balanced assembly
All work carried out by one engineer who will carry the whole engine building process through from start to finish: Cost £5000 inc vat including remove and refit, oils etc. This includes the first 50 miles of running in.
The SC46 £1500 inc vat.
Intake hose £90
Deatchwerks injectors £480
Swirl pot and Bosch pump upgrade £550 inc vat fitted
Exhaust systems from £380
Helix or possibly CC clutch £550
Headers £500-800?
FMIC £675 fitted
New ECU £1050 fitted and mapped
I six speed box 1500-2000?
This is what I've recently budgeted for. You can add it up, but somewhere in the region of 12-14k, depending on extras and spec.
I'm looking to source some parts myself and lowering the cost. But then you add in some nice guages etc etc and soon you're looking at a very big bill. Already have handling/brakes pack in place.
PS - Thanks for the headers!
Full engine build including the following:
Wiseco pistons with uprated pins
K1 H beam rods
ACL race bearings
New nitrided crank
RCM uprated oil pump
ARP head stud kit
Genuine Subaru gaskets and seals
Multi layer head gaskets
Cosworth baffle plate
New water pump
New belt tensioner
New belt
Fully overhauled cylinder heads
Balanced assembly
All work carried out by one engineer who will carry the whole engine building process through from start to finish: Cost £5000 inc vat including remove and refit, oils etc. This includes the first 50 miles of running in.
The SC46 £1500 inc vat.
Intake hose £90
Deatchwerks injectors £480
Swirl pot and Bosch pump upgrade £550 inc vat fitted
Exhaust systems from £380
Helix or possibly CC clutch £550
Headers £500-800?
FMIC £675 fitted
New ECU £1050 fitted and mapped
I six speed box 1500-2000?
This is what I've recently budgeted for. You can add it up, but somewhere in the region of 12-14k, depending on extras and spec.
I'm looking to source some parts myself and lowering the cost. But then you add in some nice guages etc etc and soon you're looking at a very big bill. Already have handling/brakes pack in place.
PS - Thanks for the headers!
27 April 2012 | 05:26 PM
#39
I must admit, I wish I had bought an STI rather than a WRX in the first place. didn't do my research at the begining but then again didn't have the money for an STI in the first place. but paying for it now!
still happy with my car though
still happy with my car though
27 April 2012 | 05:40 PM
#42
http://www.enginetuner.co.uk/q_and_a...t=5&offset=370
edit_ sorry I was making a point that your probably right, but Im sure there was once a drive in -drive out for little over £3k ?!?!?
Subject: Enging Tuner || New Question
Sender's Name: simQuestion: Is the price for the close deck engine built is £4150? If not then how much is it also the price for the 450bhp built.i have a standard turbo 280bhp max output which Im ok with for the moment but i wouldnt wana go over 500bhp in the future, so need an engine built to 550bhp max.Answer: Closed deck blocks are costing £500 these days, plus vat. They also need the rear thrust machining to be done. I don't honestly think you need one with the turbo you are going to be using. £4150 covers a full drive in drive out 2.1 stroker engine build. Considering everything you've told me you don't need to spend that much on the car. you could just go for a 350bhp conversion, which still isn't exactly hanging about. Feel free to call me on 01752 345880 if you'd like to discuss it. Subject: Enging Tuner || New QuestionSender's Name: simQuestion: Hi its sim again. Whts the bhp for the engine that will be made for £4150 is it 550bhp? Also will my normal clutch cope up wth the new engine cuz the only thing im doing atm is the engine nothing else.I wana keep everything the same the turbo n clutch or do i need to change the clutch? Also how long will it take to get it all done n ready?Answer: Hi.. If you use a closed deck block, the engine would be capable of 550 bhp safely. If not, then I'd say 450 is a better target. The engine itself doesn't produce the power, it's the turbo and management system. If you fit a large turbo without sorting the engine out, it won't last five minutes, whcih is why I'd always suggest sorting the engine out first. when you get around to doing the rest of it, you'll have the power to match!
Sender's Name: simQuestion: Is the price for the close deck engine built is £4150? If not then how much is it also the price for the 450bhp built.i have a standard turbo 280bhp max output which Im ok with for the moment but i wouldnt wana go over 500bhp in the future, so need an engine built to 550bhp max.Answer: Closed deck blocks are costing £500 these days, plus vat. They also need the rear thrust machining to be done. I don't honestly think you need one with the turbo you are going to be using. £4150 covers a full drive in drive out 2.1 stroker engine build. Considering everything you've told me you don't need to spend that much on the car. you could just go for a 350bhp conversion, which still isn't exactly hanging about. Feel free to call me on 01752 345880 if you'd like to discuss it. Subject: Enging Tuner || New QuestionSender's Name: simQuestion: Hi its sim again. Whts the bhp for the engine that will be made for £4150 is it 550bhp? Also will my normal clutch cope up wth the new engine cuz the only thing im doing atm is the engine nothing else.I wana keep everything the same the turbo n clutch or do i need to change the clutch? Also how long will it take to get it all done n ready?Answer: Hi.. If you use a closed deck block, the engine would be capable of 550 bhp safely. If not, then I'd say 450 is a better target. The engine itself doesn't produce the power, it's the turbo and management system. If you fit a large turbo without sorting the engine out, it won't last five minutes, whcih is why I'd always suggest sorting the engine out first. when you get around to doing the rest of it, you'll have the power to match!
Last edited by Rob Day; 27 April 2012 at 05:43 PM.
27 April 2012 | 05:42 PM
#43
Hi Jura,
Thats sounds cool but I don't want quite that much power (yet)
If I go down that route I will defo need sti box and diff. MD321H would be better for the power I am looking for but as I said, still looking at options and doing my resarch. Syvecs ecu is so much more money than the simtec. not sure what I will gain from paying the extra pounds.
Thats sounds cool but I don't want quite that much power (yet
) If I go down that route I will defo need sti box and diff. MD321H would be better for the power I am looking for but as I said, still looking at options and doing my resarch. Syvecs ecu is so much more money than the simtec. not sure what I will gain from paying the extra pounds.
Our plan has been too,have nice 350-400bhp wagon,but after several debate with my brother we are decided go with with almost whole new setup and everything which is fitted on car..
About the turbo,Billet T will be amazing turbo on yours and you will have power reserve if you are want in future,Syvecs is great ECU and offereing what most ECU offer for extra like datalogging,ALS,LC plus 8 maps can be handy too,contact dealers of Syvecs and decide from this
If you will be near to Neil@Slowboy racing and we will be there,we will take you on ride and from this you can decide how it is and if its worth to have Syvecs and Billet T
Jura
27 April 2012 | 05:44 PM
#44
It's a pricey game and one to think hard about.
Last edited by sprigeteer; 27 April 2012 at 05:45 PM.
27 April 2012 | 05:44 PM
#45
Well for what its worth you have many options, of which there is the:
Limit pushing 450bhp
Relaibale 450bhp
Bullet Proof 450bhp
Limit pushing has got be running a stock STI engine, and as your staying with the WRX (although you really need to sell up regadless of pride). Many will tell you that they can do it, and in some cases have lasted longer than owner had anticipated before moving onto fully forged or 2.1/2.5's etc.
Reliable in my opinion is get an STI engine and uprate it including future proof gaskets, oil pump etc, or self built 2.1.
Bullet Proof has got to be a 2.1 from one of the sponsors on here who know the ins & outs.
Ive got to say it again though, you really need to consider selling the WRX in place of an STI. Im not sure you would want to be running an LPG system through a 2.1 anyway, I dont think they are advanced enough imho, and I doubt any Subaru builder with offer any warrantee on an engine if you were using LPG (yet to be argued)
Ball park figures for what ever your route you decide to take:
Good example STI £6'000+
or
6 Speed box £1'500+
6 Speed Clutch £700
2.1 Stroker £3'000 built/fitted?
Turbo £1'000
Brakes £700-£1'200
Headers ect £400
ECU and mapping £1'000+ (although you can run the OEM ecu to 450bhp)
The list goes on, fueling, suspension, handling, intake, intercooler, injectors, exhaust,
Good luck
Rob
ps- for what its worth, ive had over 400 on a standard engine, but dont get hooked on numbers, sometime its all about how it handles and how you drive
Limit pushing 450bhp
Relaibale 450bhp
Bullet Proof 450bhp
Limit pushing has got be running a stock STI engine, and as your staying with the WRX (although you really need to sell up regadless of pride). Many will tell you that they can do it, and in some cases have lasted longer than owner had anticipated before moving onto fully forged or 2.1/2.5's etc.
Reliable in my opinion is get an STI engine and uprate it including future proof gaskets, oil pump etc, or self built 2.1.
Bullet Proof has got to be a 2.1 from one of the sponsors on here who know the ins & outs.
Ive got to say it again though, you really need to consider selling the WRX in place of an STI. Im not sure you would want to be running an LPG system through a 2.1 anyway, I dont think they are advanced enough imho, and I doubt any Subaru builder with offer any warrantee on an engine if you were using LPG (yet to be argued
)Ball park figures for what ever your route you decide to take:
Good example STI £6'000+
or
6 Speed box £1'500+
6 Speed Clutch £700
2.1 Stroker £3'000 built/fitted?
Turbo £1'000
Brakes £700-£1'200
Headers ect £400
ECU and mapping £1'000+ (although you can run the OEM ecu to 450bhp)
The list goes on, fueling, suspension, handling, intake, intercooler, injectors, exhaust,
Good luck
Rob
ps- for what its worth, ive had over 400 on a standard engine, but dont get hooked on numbers, sometime its all about how it handles and how you drive
Jura
27 April 2012 | 05:51 PM
#46
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,377
Likes: 3
From: @Junc 12, M40 Warwicksh; 01926 614522 CV33 9PL -Use 9GX for Satnav. South Mids Alcatek ECu dealer
You'd be mad to run an open deck block at 550 hp it will not stay together, as the block is too flexible. Minimum is Semi closed, ideally the W spec block from a JDM hatch or a proper closed deck block.
David APi
We also do 2.1 stroker kits and forged components don't forget.
David APi
We also do 2.1 stroker kits and forged components don't forget.
27 April 2012 | 05:52 PM
#47
Wow 12k! I wasnt expecting that! Once I get the gearbox i know my engine would take up to 340/350bhp. If its going to cost so much more to get to my goal, i migh just move the goal posts, and aim for 400bhp. I also want something that is going to be fun to drive to work everyday, which is why i'm going twinscroll.
I'm glad i asked/started this thread, i have a much better idea what i want needs to be done, and realise i might need to bring my goal/project down a peg.
I'm glad i asked/started this thread, i have a much better idea what i want needs to be done, and realise i might need to bring my goal/project down a peg.
You don't need do all this in one go,you can build engine in few stages and save extra money on gearbox and other parts,plus worth have open eyes for good deals on parts which you will need at future and rather ask twice before you buy something like you will never need
Twin scroll is nice,but you for full potential of TS(Twin scroll) you will need AVCS and in this case new ECU or if you find JDM WRX ECU which can control AVCS,but standard Twin scroll VF36/37/42 never will make 400bhp
Jura
27 April 2012 | 06:03 PM
#48
Hi Paul
Our plan has been too,have nice 350-400bhp wagon,but after several debate with my brother we are decided go with with almost whole new setup and everything which is fitted on car..
About the turbo,Billet T will be amazing turbo on yours and you will have power reserve if you are want in future,Syvecs is great ECU and offereing what most ECU offer for extra like datalogging,ALS,LC plus 8 maps can be handy too,contact dealers of Syvecs and decide from this
If you will be near to Neil@Slowboy racing and we will be there,we will take you on ride and from this you can decide how it is and if its worth to have Syvecs and Billet T
Jura
Our plan has been too,have nice 350-400bhp wagon,but after several debate with my brother we are decided go with with almost whole new setup and everything which is fitted on car..
About the turbo,Billet T will be amazing turbo on yours and you will have power reserve if you are want in future,Syvecs is great ECU and offereing what most ECU offer for extra like datalogging,ALS,LC plus 8 maps can be handy too,contact dealers of Syvecs and decide from this
If you will be near to Neil@Slowboy racing and we will be there,we will take you on ride and from this you can decide how it is and if its worth to have Syvecs and Billet T
Jura
27 April 2012 | 06:07 PM
#49
Scooby Regular
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 19,408
Likes: 0
From: Sunny BELFAST
do you think we have put him off . the 450bhp target has come down alot LOL. to the OP - ask as many questions as you want. a few guys on here myself included have been down the long an torturous route of building big power cars with the wallet stripping capabilities. a genuine 400bhp car is a nice compromise. more than enough to see off the usual rep **** boxes and just enough to scare exotica a wee bit.
. the 450bhp target has come down alot LOL. to the OP - ask as many questions as you want. a few guys on here myself included have been down the long an torturous route of building big power cars with the wallet stripping capabilities. a genuine 400bhp car is a nice compromise. more than enough to see off the usual rep **** boxes and just enough to scare exotica a wee bit.
27 April 2012 | 06:50 PM
#50
Why do people ask for advice, when they have no intention of following it....
Do what you are going to do with your car, and return to this thread in 12 - 18 months time.
FWIW, you can take your WRX to 350ish easily and cheaply.
The drivetrain can take this, but for how long is a mystery.
If we are talking about a shopping car that goes out on a nice run every now and then, that will last a good while.
If, once you get used to the power and use it to it's full potential and use it hard, you will have failures.
Then you will have a broken car that NEEDS money spent on it to get it back on the road, and you will then also decide it's a good idea to upgrade.
So then you are forced into buying either a 6 speed, or a new engine, or new clutch etc etc... (any number of parts to fail)
Before you know it, you are ***** deep with a car that will break.
Seriously, think about it.
You can modify the STi with far better success and results.
Sorry to sound a bit harsh and blunt, but the truth is the truth. Fact.
Do what you are going to do with your car, and return to this thread in 12 - 18 months time.
FWIW, you can take your WRX to 350ish easily and cheaply.
The drivetrain can take this, but for how long is a mystery.
If we are talking about a shopping car that goes out on a nice run every now and then, that will last a good while.
If, once you get used to the power and use it to it's full potential and use it hard, you will have failures.
Then you will have a broken car that NEEDS money spent on it to get it back on the road, and you will then also decide it's a good idea to upgrade.
So then you are forced into buying either a 6 speed, or a new engine, or new clutch etc etc... (any number of parts to fail)
Before you know it, you are ***** deep with a car that will break.
Seriously, think about it.
You can modify the STi with far better success and results.
Sorry to sound a bit harsh and blunt, but the truth is the truth. Fact.
27 April 2012 | 11:50 PM
#54
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,892
Likes: 0
From: In the Flatlands of Lincolnshire
You'd be mad to run an open deck block at 550 hp it will not stay together, as the block is too flexible. Minimum is Semi closed, ideally the W spec block from a JDM hatch or a proper closed deck block.
David APi
We also do 2.1 stroker kits and forged components don't forget.
David APi
We also do 2.1 stroker kits and forged components don't forget.
28 April 2012 | 12:09 AM
#55
Of all the comments on here the afore mentioned one is the most important one. Yes you could build a open deck block to 550 bhp but don't expect it to last long. For a long life 350(ish) is okay on a ODB above that you NEED a STi engine or a 2.2 CDB engine block. Have a look on the likes of scoobyclinic, Scooby mania and others you will see that their packages for a 2.0 WRX stop around the 350 bhp mark as they want the engine to be reliable. I have a 2.0 ltr STi running at 440 bhp, I am looking at 2.1 stroker but also thinking bigger and NOT 2.5 ltr as it is okay upto 450 bhp.
You are probably forgot why companies selling "just" 350bhp packages,because of one important reason is missing on WRX,is not the OBD,its 6 speed
Many people run on OBD 400bhp+ without the problem,500bhp i know only few of them and which running OBD and car are tracked and used daily
Jura
Jura
28 April 2012 | 08:27 AM
#56
Scooby Regular
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
From: Russia
Hi guys!
I have a 2003 jdm STi spec c car, the engine is stock jdm EJ207 AVCS. Will the engine block hold the 450bhp/450ft torque (the turbo is MD321T billet) ? What is the power limit of the stock EJ207 engine?
I have a 2003 jdm STi spec c car, the engine is stock jdm EJ207 AVCS. Will the engine block hold the 450bhp/450ft torque (the turbo is MD321T billet) ? What is the power limit of the stock EJ207 engine?
28 April 2012 | 09:47 AM
#57
This was BigFuds car:
https://www.scoobynet.com/projects-4...hp-target.html
28 April 2012 | 11:01 AM
#58
Scooby Regular
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
From: Russia
If to speak about the 2.35lt engine (EJ22T closed deck block +2.5 crank) with all the internals forged, what is the power limit of this shortblock?
Is it a good idea to sell the EJ207 and buy 2.35 shortblock, turbo is still MD321T, just for the reliability? Or 2.35 is a 500bhp+ player? May be these engines both have the same for example 50k miles period of life on a turbo like T ?
Is it a good idea to sell the EJ207 and buy 2.35 shortblock, turbo is still MD321T, just for the reliability? Or 2.35 is a 500bhp+ player? May be these engines both have the same for example 50k miles period of life on a turbo like T ?
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