Fire Extinguisher
21 May 2012, 04:07 PM
#31
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: here, there, everywhere
Posts: 3,111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yeah id like to see some plumbed in engine bay deployment points, would be interesting
id imagine any areas where fuel is present in quantities would be covered
dry powder pretty much gets everywhere though, if get a good jet on a foam extinguisher it would be decent
the only thing id question is if you deploy them is there any level of control? or just swamt everything
id hate to deploy them and later find a fuse had popped and a wire was smouldering near the edge of the bonnet - and now i need a full engine rebuild lol
although maybe better safe than sorry lol
id imagine any areas where fuel is present in quantities would be covered
dry powder pretty much gets everywhere though, if get a good jet on a foam extinguisher it would be decent
the only thing id question is if you deploy them is there any level of control? or just swamt everything
id hate to deploy them and later find a fuse had popped and a wire was smouldering near the edge of the bonnet - and now i need a full engine rebuild lol
although maybe better safe than sorry lol
21 May 2012, 04:11 PM
#32
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (11)
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Herefordshire
Posts: 2,760
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've been a motorsport marshal for thirty years and if I bought an extinguisher for my car it would be powder.
As Jef has said powder will knock down any fire if used correctly. Foam or AFFF is used to seal the fire to stop it reigniting.
A rule to remember guys is if you have an underbonnet fire NEVER open the bonnet!!
Pop it but DON'T lift it and aim you extinguisher in the gap at the front and use very short bursts. A 2kg bottle will only give you around 10 seconds or so of use.
Halon is as far as I know illegal and no one will recharge it.
As Jef has said powder will knock down any fire if used correctly. Foam or AFFF is used to seal the fire to stop it reigniting.
A rule to remember guys is if you have an underbonnet fire NEVER open the bonnet!!
Pop it but DON'T lift it and aim you extinguisher in the gap at the front and use very short bursts. A 2kg bottle will only give you around 10 seconds or so of use.
Halon is as far as I know illegal and no one will recharge it.
21 May 2012, 04:14 PM
#33
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (11)
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Herefordshire
Posts: 2,760
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the only thing id question is if you deploy them is there any level of control? or just swamt everything
id hate to deploy them and later find a fuse had popped and a wire was smouldering near the edge of the bonnet - and now i need a full engine rebuild lol
although maybe better safe than sorry lol
The best powder to get is Monnex. This has much better coverage than ordinary dry powder and seals the fire better.
21 May 2012, 04:31 PM
#34
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: here, there, everywhere
Posts: 3,111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yeah monnex is the best, and its very effective, especially on running feul fires, knockdown of flame is rapid,
dual application would be most effective imo.
i wasnt sure if went through a switch when plumbed in which automatically deployed the media, it would be quite hard to assess what amount of media was needed without being able to see the fire - so it basically just plumbed in with a longer hose, no other control invovled?
i agree they last seconds, we can go through a 35kg drum of monnex in a single scenario, it doesnt last long atall, you need to use it effectivley, and not just haphazardly applied
dual application would be most effective imo.
i wasnt sure if went through a switch when plumbed in which automatically deployed the media, it would be quite hard to assess what amount of media was needed without being able to see the fire - so it basically just plumbed in with a longer hose, no other control invovled?
i agree they last seconds, we can go through a 35kg drum of monnex in a single scenario, it doesnt last long atall, you need to use it effectivley, and not just haphazardly applied
21 May 2012, 04:50 PM
#36
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (11)
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Herefordshire
Posts: 2,760
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Plumbed in bottles will totally discharge in one go so unless you want 2kg of powder over your engine go for plumbed in foam.
But as stated before powder is better at knocking down a fire and giving you the chance to get out.
I've not had a lot to do with FFFP but I know someone who'll know about it so I'll ask him next time I see him.
But as stated before powder is better at knocking down a fire and giving you the chance to get out.
I've not had a lot to do with FFFP but I know someone who'll know about it so I'll ask him next time I see him.
Last edited by Rescue Dude; 21 May 2012 at 04:54 PM.
21 May 2012, 07:25 PM
#37
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: here, there, everywhere
Posts: 3,111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i work with FFFP almost every day,
its much more effective in my practical experience than AFFF imo.
if im not mistaken under CAA guidlines you can hold less stock of FFFP and also Monnex than you need to by law of inferior media's at fare charging aerodromes. this is because its more effective than other powders/AFFF foams
its worth noting that dry powders are abrasive in nature, and can cause damage to engines itself - and it really does get in everywhere, so over use is not recommended if your trying to put out a small fire i wouldnt want to empty and entire extuingusher of the stuff in an engine bay unless really needed.
obviously this is all secondry to protecting yourself or others
its much more effective in my practical experience than AFFF imo.
if im not mistaken under CAA guidlines you can hold less stock of FFFP and also Monnex than you need to by law of inferior media's at fare charging aerodromes. this is because its more effective than other powders/AFFF foams
its worth noting that dry powders are abrasive in nature, and can cause damage to engines itself - and it really does get in everywhere, so over use is not recommended if your trying to put out a small fire i wouldnt want to empty and entire extuingusher of the stuff in an engine bay unless really needed.
obviously this is all secondry to protecting yourself or others
21 May 2012, 07:41 PM
#38
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looks like I messed up buying 2 foam ones then,looks like I need a powder one aswell.
Lots of useful info on here now about a topic rarely mentioned on ScoobyNet.
I think lots of people aswell as myself will find this useful.
Thanks.
Lots of useful info on here now about a topic rarely mentioned on ScoobyNet.
I think lots of people aswell as myself will find this useful.
Thanks.
21 May 2012, 08:08 PM
#39
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: here, there, everywhere
Posts: 3,111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
although im sure marshalls ect have great training and experience, id imagine they do actually know best after all the years of incidents, so probably best goign with experienced opinions.
preventative measures will always be best, but we know that doesnt always work, and in the case of accidents you just never know
id say atleast doing some reading on the topic would be useful and if possible maybe a short training course with some practical training would be very helpful tbh, but obviously finacial aspects mean it may not be realistic option.
22 May 2012, 07:36 AM
#40
ask someone that does extinguisher refills to give you a demo. They done it at our work for our H&S guff we have to do , and we had a go at emptying a few different types . Foam ones were pish , , water ones lasted ages , CO ones were fun !)
only one we didnt try was powder , he said it was messy as &%$* .
only one we didnt try was powder , he said it was messy as &%$* .
22 May 2012, 10:15 AM
#41
Scooby Regular
Was there not a plumbed in system that used a "pressurised" plastic pipe in the engine bay, that melted at the point of the fire and thats where the gas/foam/power would be directed?
22 May 2012, 02:10 PM
#42
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It would be interesting to hear from people who had actually put out a fire with their in car extinguisher. What they used & how it performed would be useful too.
22 May 2012, 02:30 PM
#43
I used this on a fuel fire and as said before, i might as well have just used harsh language ..... it was absolutely no use what so ever! (lifeline 1l foam)
When the marshalls arrived with proper kit they had no problems, but by then the car looked very 2nd hand! :-(
22 May 2012, 02:44 PM
#44
So those in the know, can we agree on the best cost efficient setup for a road/track car?
Im thinking this -
http://www.jjcraceandrally.com/rally...guisher-system
plumbed in foam with jets covering the fuel system (my swirl pots an underbonnet), and turbo area (the biggest heat source therefore most probabal origin of fire).
Then either this powder (only 1kg though)
http://www.jjcraceandrally.com/rally...e-extinguisher
Or the same lifeline foam again as a backup to the plumbed in system.
http://www.jjcraceandrally.com/rally...uisher-1-0-ltr
Or ... this complete package
http://www.jjcraceandrally.com/rally...5ltr-hand-held
They should each package nicely in the footwell in front of the seats as the last one was.
Im thinking this -
http://www.jjcraceandrally.com/rally...guisher-system
plumbed in foam with jets covering the fuel system (my swirl pots an underbonnet), and turbo area (the biggest heat source therefore most probabal origin of fire).
Then either this powder (only 1kg though)
http://www.jjcraceandrally.com/rally...e-extinguisher
Or the same lifeline foam again as a backup to the plumbed in system.
http://www.jjcraceandrally.com/rally...uisher-1-0-ltr
Or ... this complete package
http://www.jjcraceandrally.com/rally...5ltr-hand-held
They should each package nicely in the footwell in front of the seats as the last one was.
22 May 2012, 08:50 PM
#46
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Legacy gtb,can't believe how bad your car was even though the marshals put it out,gutted for you. Did you get it fixed afterwards,do you know what caused it?
Iv now got two foam extinguishers & a powder one on the way, I think a plumbed in set up is now on my to do list aswell.
Iv now got two foam extinguishers & a powder one on the way, I think a plumbed in set up is now on my to do list aswell.
22 May 2012, 09:54 PM
#48
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: here, there, everywhere
Posts: 3,111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
richard if going for powder, get the monnex if available, it really is worth it if just a few quid difference
legacy, ouch that looks painful!!
legacy, ouch that looks painful!!
23 May 2012, 09:03 AM
#50
"Legacy gtb,can't believe how bad your car was even though the marshals put it out,gutted for you. Did you get it fixed afterwards,do you know what caused it?"
Richard, learnt an important lesson that day, when fire gets hold its a tricky bugger to kill! Shells scrapped now and ive spent the last few months getting everything cleaned, serviced and rebuilt ready to go back into another shell. Powder extinguishers make such a mess! and eat theyre way into metal when theyre fire retardent chemical reactions are going on! So many parts which at first i thought were ok were actually fubar'd! :-(
As for what caused it, sticky subject which im keeping quiet about until im out of the pockets of the guy who built the engine ..... lets just say it was a mixture of a 30degree day at Spa, 450/410, and some schoolboy errors with the plumbing which i hadnt noticed until it was too late!
If you ever notice a legacy shaped stain on the run off of eau rouge .... that was me! :-(
Worth mentioning, if ever fighting a car fire hold your breath! the fella lying down and the ambulance being there is because as the marshall was putting it out he took a lung full of plasticy nastyness and had a bit of a fit!
Jef, ive searched for an in car size monnex and can only find the massive ones which just wouldnt be practical in the car! Can you find a link to a practical monnex before i order that JJC package please?
Richard, learnt an important lesson that day, when fire gets hold its a tricky bugger to kill! Shells scrapped now and ive spent the last few months getting everything cleaned, serviced and rebuilt ready to go back into another shell. Powder extinguishers make such a mess! and eat theyre way into metal when theyre fire retardent chemical reactions are going on! So many parts which at first i thought were ok were actually fubar'd! :-(
As for what caused it, sticky subject which im keeping quiet about until im out of the pockets of the guy who built the engine ..... lets just say it was a mixture of a 30degree day at Spa, 450/410, and some schoolboy errors with the plumbing which i hadnt noticed until it was too late!
If you ever notice a legacy shaped stain on the run off of eau rouge .... that was me! :-(
Worth mentioning, if ever fighting a car fire hold your breath! the fella lying down and the ambulance being there is because as the marshall was putting it out he took a lung full of plasticy nastyness and had a bit of a fit!
Jef, ive searched for an in car size monnex and can only find the massive ones which just wouldnt be practical in the car! Can you find a link to a practical monnex before i order that JJC package please?
23 May 2012, 10:38 AM
#52
Been doing some more phoning about and it seems no one makes a hand held monnex extinguisher small enough for in car mounting! :-(
This seems odd! motorsport is usually pretty good at bringing on the best possible kit so that less mass is needed for the same performance ...... if monnex is that good, why arent we seeing smaller ones?
.... and just to confirm, that "the****s" is "the *****" right???? .... that would make sense! had an **** like a politicians face for a few days after that ..... id put it down to how much booze id distracted myself with, but im well practiced with the booze!
This seems odd! motorsport is usually pretty good at bringing on the best possible kit so that less mass is needed for the same performance ...... if monnex is that good, why arent we seeing smaller ones?
.... and just to confirm, that "the****s" is "the *****" right???? .... that would make sense! had an **** like a politicians face for a few days after that ..... id put it down to how much booze id distracted myself with, but im well practiced with the booze!
Last edited by legacy_gtb; 23 May 2012 at 10:41 AM.
23 May 2012, 11:06 AM
#54
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: here, there, everywhere
Posts: 3,111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
sorry mate, just got back to this thread
rescue dude is the man with marshalling experience - he may know more about monnex powder extinguishers availability for in car applications?
im an aviation fire fighter, so we use massive 35kg or 50kg trolley of the stuff - but its used because it is THE BEST, and its industry recognised as the best. its strange you cant find one and that motorsport application hasnt been addressed?
but there maybe several reasons for that - it maybe too expensive or be suscptible to moisture or packing down?? i wouldnt think so tbh but there may be a reason why its not around - how does the larger size ones compare to the same size normal powders in price - it may be they are just too expensive to justify??
where avaition is concerned - we have to have the best media available cost is secondry .
guys at my work service all the hand held extuinguishers, ill ask them if they know any more mate tommorow.
rescue dude is the man with marshalling experience - he may know more about monnex powder extinguishers availability for in car applications?
im an aviation fire fighter, so we use massive 35kg or 50kg trolley of the stuff - but its used because it is THE BEST, and its industry recognised as the best. its strange you cant find one and that motorsport application hasnt been addressed?
but there maybe several reasons for that - it maybe too expensive or be suscptible to moisture or packing down?? i wouldnt think so tbh but there may be a reason why its not around - how does the larger size ones compare to the same size normal powders in price - it may be they are just too expensive to justify??
where avaition is concerned - we have to have the best media available cost is secondry .
guys at my work service all the hand held extuinguishers, ill ask them if they know any more mate tommorow.
23 May 2012, 11:19 AM
#55
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (11)
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Herefordshire
Posts: 2,760
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It may be worth phoning fire extinguisher suppliers and asking them the question. There's no reason I can think of for not having small Monnex bottles.
A tip for anyone with a powder bottle is to occasionally tip it up and wait for the powder to fall. (you'll hear it if you hold it to your ear) This helps to stop it settling and compacting down too much and makes it much more efficient.
Anyone who's been to a race meeting would see the marshals doing this when they check the bottles on post in the morning.
A tip for anyone with a powder bottle is to occasionally tip it up and wait for the powder to fall. (you'll hear it if you hold it to your ear) This helps to stop it settling and compacting down too much and makes it much more efficient.
Anyone who's been to a race meeting would see the marshals doing this when they check the bottles on post in the morning.
23 May 2012, 02:09 PM
#56
just got off the phone with an "expert", and he suggested that monnex is only BCE rated, not A rated, therefore no good for flammable liquids such as petrol!
He was insistant that monnex on a fuel fire would be inneffective and i should stick to powders and foams ..... but i definately believe you guys more, so this makes no sense!
He was insistant that monnex on a fuel fire would be inneffective and i should stick to powders and foams ..... but i definately believe you guys more, so this makes no sense!
23 May 2012, 02:18 PM
#57
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: here, there, everywhere
Posts: 3,111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
class B and C are liquid and gas fires
class A is solids - is that what he was reffering to, the class of fire? the E is for electrical fires
monnex is specifically designed for use on fuel fires
here first google link http://www.fireandsafetycentre.co.uk...inguisher.html
monnex is just a type of dry powder media, unless im in the wrong, he may know somethign i dont though?
class A is solids - is that what he was reffering to, the class of fire? the E is for electrical fires
monnex is specifically designed for use on fuel fires
here first google link http://www.fireandsafetycentre.co.uk...inguisher.html
monnex is just a type of dry powder media, unless im in the wrong, he may know somethign i dont though?
23 May 2012, 02:26 PM
#58
yeah, that expert was full of ****!
"The formulation gives exceptional knockdown performance and is the professional choice for fuel stores, motor sports, garages, airports and similar hazardous applications where flammable liquids and gases are used or stored."
"The formulation gives exceptional knockdown performance and is the professional choice for fuel stores, motor sports, garages, airports and similar hazardous applications where flammable liquids and gases are used or stored."
23 May 2012, 03:23 PM
#59
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (11)
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Herefordshire
Posts: 2,760
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
just got off the phone with an "expert", and he suggested that monnex is only BCE rated, not A rated, therefore no good for flammable liquids such as petrol!
He was insistant that monnex on a fuel fire would be inneffective and i should stick to powders and foams ..... but i definately believe you guys more, so this makes no sense!
He was insistant that monnex on a fuel fire would be inneffective and i should stick to powders and foams ..... but i definately believe you guys more, so this makes no sense!
Perhaps the 'expert' you asked didn't sell it but he'd sell you something else.
23 May 2012, 04:05 PM
#60
Scooby Regular
Thread Starter
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Monnex only seems available in huge fire extinguishers, I can't find one suitable to store in my car. Can powder be used on a plumbed in set up or is only foam suitable,& if this is the case will a plumbed in system be as good as a hand held powder extinguisher?