Religion works sometimes
24 June 2012, 07:52 PM
#62
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: 32 cylinders and many cats
Posts: 18,658
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
It's only superior because we are dogmatists about the value of science and 'rationality'. Science say this, says that, it's not scientific so must be invalid? It's 'irrational' = it's heresy?
Ok I'm not completely that much of a relativist but there are many cosmologies and they all work, we're naive to think our cosmology now is 'true' in some universal sense because the history of all cosmologies is they all get superseded.
I'm sure the Christian of late antiquity was as confident in his worldview as we are of ours.
I talked before about how 'facts' or 'observations' are theory-laden, we can't actually split theory and observation according to some epistemologists. Anti-realists, Instrumentalists, take the view that 'theoretical entities' (too small to see) like atoms are just concepts that work, to ask if they are 'real' is an irrelevant question, science can't deal with this. I believe the default Positivist position is to be agnostic about theoretical entities. Blew my mind when I got that, we learn at school about atoms like they are things you could pick up if your hands were small enough, but really nobody knows if they are actually real.
Ok I'm not completely that much of a relativist but there are many cosmologies and they all work, we're naive to think our cosmology now is 'true' in some universal sense because the history of all cosmologies is they all get superseded.
I'm sure the Christian of late antiquity was as confident in his worldview as we are of ours.
I talked before about how 'facts' or 'observations' are theory-laden, we can't actually split theory and observation according to some epistemologists. Anti-realists, Instrumentalists, take the view that 'theoretical entities' (too small to see) like atoms are just concepts that work, to ask if they are 'real' is an irrelevant question, science can't deal with this. I believe the default Positivist position is to be agnostic about theoretical entities. Blew my mind when I got that, we learn at school about atoms like they are things you could pick up if your hands were small enough, but really nobody knows if they are actually real.
24 June 2012, 07:58 PM
#63
Scooby Regular
Anyway re the original post
Off course these types of amazing “against the odds” recovery situations can seem miraculous
But are actually easy to explain
Consider the national lottery – it would be a miracle if you or I won it (more so for me because I don’t play)
It just won’t happen even if we played for a thousand years – and it would indeed be a miracle if it did
But someone wins it most weeks, don’t they, -- in fact when you think about it, it would be a miracle if no one ever won it
So the fact that some people make miraculous recoveries is in fact no miracle at all and is to be expected -- indeed the true miracle would be if no one survived, against all odds at all, but we know that just doesn’t happen
A broken clock tells the right time twice a day, and I can (roughly once every 52 goes) tell someone what playing card they are thinking of – amazing, miraculous, sadly no
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 24 June 2012 at 08:00 PM.
24 June 2012, 08:35 PM
#64
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Home
Posts: 14,758
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
24 June 2012, 08:35 PM
#65
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: here, there, everywhere
Posts: 3,111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's only a matter of time before science puts to bed once and for all that religion & god (s) is a load of bull****, and is nothing more than " old wive's tales " passed down generations of humans for thousands of years....for some bizare reason
At that point religion will die, and people will accept once and for all that you have one life and you have to live it in you're own way, and not be swayed into believing there is an all seeing, all doing almighty " thing " thats apparently oversees your existance.
Where is the proof of a so called "god"
At that point religion will die, and people will accept once and for all that you have one life and you have to live it in you're own way, and not be swayed into believing there is an all seeing, all doing almighty " thing " thats apparently oversees your existance.
Where is the proof of a so called "god"
what is the point in rubbishing others beleifes, as long as they are not extreme/damaging to others?
why do you or anyone feel the need to belittle or ridicule others thoughts?
as a side note as far as im concerned all religion is based on lies and generally nonsense, i beleive not in any form of a god, but i cetainly now dont feel the need to remove the comfort others may find in religion or a god, aslong as its not pushed on me.
religion/thoughts/beleifs can often be personal thoughts derived from personal experiences - of which outsiders may have no expierience of.
does it matter really?
not in the fcking slightest as far as im concerned.
24 June 2012, 08:47 PM
#67
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: here, there, everywhere
Posts: 3,111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
id add to that that athiesm and its followers especially so on here feel the need to constantly view there opinions, almost like a fashionable following
how many christians or muslims ect ect do we see popping up on threads here rubbishing others beleifs at every opportunity?
not many ime.
but i do see endless athiests jumping in rubbishing others beleifs, calling beleivers stupid, ridiculing others stances and thought processess. endless promotion of science over all else, refusing to accept other peoples stances.
on SN atleast it seems the non tolerance does not come from religous people, but non religous people.
weird??
how many christians or muslims ect ect do we see popping up on threads here rubbishing others beleifs at every opportunity?
not many ime.
but i do see endless athiests jumping in rubbishing others beleifs, calling beleivers stupid, ridiculing others stances and thought processess. endless promotion of science over all else, refusing to accept other peoples stances.
on SN atleast it seems the non tolerance does not come from religous people, but non religous people.
weird??
24 June 2012, 08:53 PM
#68
Scooby Regular
but I have more sympathy with this line of reasoning than a white haired beardy bloke
24 June 2012, 09:19 PM
#69
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cas Vegas
Posts: 60,269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
24 June 2012, 09:36 PM
#70
Scooby Regular
hopefully Jamzk realises Sherlock Holmes was a fictional character
otherwise it could become pure Alan Partridge
"your net is full of holes"
"all nets are full of holes Alan"
otherwise it could become pure Alan Partridge
"your net is full of holes"
"all nets are full of holes Alan"
24 June 2012, 09:41 PM
#73
Occam’s Razor; Nothing has shown me that knowledge of god came from god to man through religion and whether these experiences of god are nothing more than manifestations of our minds. All the iterations of god and religion flows from man and his thought processes and therefore I can conclude that man made god in his image.
24 June 2012, 09:54 PM
#74
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: here, there, everywhere
Posts: 3,111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Occam’s Razor; Nothing has shown me that knowledge of god came from god to man through religion and whether these experiences of god are nothing more than manifestations of our minds. All the iterations of god and religion flows from man and his thought processes and therefore I can conclude that man made god in his image.
24 June 2012, 09:56 PM
#75
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Weston Super Mare, Somerset.
Posts: 14,102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So do all you people that scoff at the possible existence of God believe that in the vast universe there are only 3 dimensions - mass, length and time?
Because if there are others then our simple human minds couldn't begin to comprehend what this might mean.
dl
Because if there are others then our simple human minds couldn't begin to comprehend what this might mean.
dl
24 June 2012, 10:09 PM
#78
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: here, there, everywhere
Posts: 3,111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
or that in our miniscule exposure to our total surroundigs that we have a full and complete understanding of all base elemnents and any properties they may have or any other things which currently reside outwith our level of understanding
24 June 2012, 10:11 PM
#79
Scooby Regular
24 June 2012, 10:13 PM
#80
I chose to live my life by a moral code sent down by my parents, I don't need to go to church or spend hours praying and coming accross a bit strange to those who believe in evolution.
If there is a 'God' and he wants to refuse me access to 'heaven' for living my life, loving my family and trying to be a decent man but not believing in him... Bollox to him, he's obviously a bellend! But I suspect if a God of any decency exists then you'd be judged on how you lived your life rather than whether you spend hours in a mosque/church etc.
If there is a 'God' and he wants to refuse me access to 'heaven' for living my life, loving my family and trying to be a decent man but not believing in him... Bollox to him, he's obviously a bellend! But I suspect if a God of any decency exists then you'd be judged on how you lived your life rather than whether you spend hours in a mosque/church etc.
24 June 2012, 10:15 PM
#81
Scooby Regular
I chose to live my life by a moral code sent down by my parents, I don't need to go to church or spend hours praying and coming accross a bit strange to those who believe in evolution.
If there is a 'God' and he wants to refuse me access to 'heaven' for living my life, loving my family and trying to be a decent man but not believing in him... Bollox to him, he's obviously a bellend! But I suspect if a God of any decency exists then you'd be judged on how you lived your life rather than whether you spend hours in a mosque/church etc.
If there is a 'God' and he wants to refuse me access to 'heaven' for living my life, loving my family and trying to be a decent man but not believing in him... Bollox to him, he's obviously a bellend! But I suspect if a God of any decency exists then you'd be judged on how you lived your life rather than whether you spend hours in a mosque/church etc.
24 June 2012, 10:23 PM
#82
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 502
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Russell's Teapot 
I no longer believe, whether I truly ever did I don't know, but my Gran used to say the lords prayer every night before bed amongst other religious traits
My Aunt is very religious but does not put it on anyone, I admire her for her beliefs and she find great satisfaction and pleasure from the Church, it has almost become a way of life for her, and recently when ill in hospital there was some talk that she has changed her will to leave pretty much most things to the Church
I have worked with a Mormon (convert) who seems to have an answer for everything whenever questioned that doesn't fit in with his religion, he follows his religion to the absolute letter because his religion tells him it is wrong, but he will break the law (commit fraud etc)
I understand the need for people to believe in something / someone but my view is that religion hasn't exactly been a great success in the grand scheme of things
Bubba is right, if it was God's action (for the first post) then why let all the others die including Children
I no longer believe, whether I truly ever did I don't know, but my Gran used to say the lords prayer every night before bed amongst other religious traits
My Aunt is very religious but does not put it on anyone, I admire her for her beliefs and she find great satisfaction and pleasure from the Church, it has almost become a way of life for her, and recently when ill in hospital there was some talk that she has changed her will to leave pretty much most things to the Church
I have worked with a Mormon (convert) who seems to have an answer for everything whenever questioned that doesn't fit in with his religion, he follows his religion to the absolute letter because his religion tells him it is wrong, but he will break the law (commit fraud etc)
I understand the need for people to believe in something / someone but my view is that religion hasn't exactly been a great success in the grand scheme of things
Bubba is right, if it was God's action (for the first post) then why let all the others die including Children
24 June 2012, 11:05 PM
#83
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Hull, East Yorkshire
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
He/she/it didn't, it's the unfortunate truth that life for some is short, painfull and hard...........god is about as real as the bogey man, the cupboard monster, leprachaun's and fairy's
25 June 2012, 03:55 AM
#84
The baseball bat scenario....
If you were to get smashed in the head with a baseball bat and was knocked unconscious and later on upon waking up and coming to your senses, you find yourself in a dark room and can't see anything. What are the questions you'd ask yourself?
1. What happened?
2. Who put me here?
3. How do i get out of here?
I find this scenario the same as the scenario of life but difference is no one really questions life's scenario. But will definately question when they get hit with a baseball bat?
If you were to get smashed in the head with a baseball bat and was knocked unconscious and later on upon waking up and coming to your senses, you find yourself in a dark room and can't see anything. What are the questions you'd ask yourself?
1. What happened?
2. Who put me here?
3. How do i get out of here?
I find this scenario the same as the scenario of life but difference is no one really questions life's scenario. But will definately question when they get hit with a baseball bat?
25 June 2012, 07:57 AM
#86
Scooby Regular
25 June 2012, 08:18 AM
#87
As to the question does God exist? If this is the question on hand. Lets put it this way....
Can you have something from nothing? No it's no rational or logical.
Is everything limited? If so it must have come from somewhere.
Will everything with a shape, size, mass weight, features whatever you would like to call it, end at some point due to its restrictions.
Does everything with a beginning have an end? Yes...must have
This is a rational argument and does not require rocket science...
So the earth and universe have features therefore are limited and will end one day, who put it there? Only one explanation, a creator who must be unlimited which we cannot put features to i.e like man as we are limited therefore limited in understanding and comprehending but through the use of the mind can sense and comprehend the creator's existence.
I won't reply to any bigotry comments
Can you have something from nothing? No it's no rational or logical.
Is everything limited? If so it must have come from somewhere.
Will everything with a shape, size, mass weight, features whatever you would like to call it, end at some point due to its restrictions.
Does everything with a beginning have an end? Yes...must have
This is a rational argument and does not require rocket science...
So the earth and universe have features therefore are limited and will end one day, who put it there? Only one explanation, a creator who must be unlimited which we cannot put features to i.e like man as we are limited therefore limited in understanding and comprehending but through the use of the mind can sense and comprehend the creator's existence.
I won't reply to any bigotry comments
Leaving aside the point that a "creator" as a solution to the universe isn't a solution at all (who created the creator), quantum mechanics (which sounds like absolute horse poo to the layman) proves that particles pop in and out of existence all the time.
This is due to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle (or rather the effect it describes, of course... It was all happening even before Heisenberg came up with a theory around it). We can measure the effect of these virtual particles by observing what happens to "real" particles. This happens all around you all the time, and it is *well proven*, although it has not made its way into common knowledge yet (Google quantum mechanics virtual particles if you want to know more).
Particles can also be created from energy, or particles be destroyed and energy released (e.g. what happens in nuclear fusion and nuclear fission).
Quantum mechanics is *weird*, as in it doesn't make much sense to us humans with our limited brains, but it works really well at _predicting_ things that we can actually prove happens. Therefore, it *probably* correct (the exact details of what matter / energy / space is are still being worked out, of course...).
Anyway, that was just a couple of small random points that things do actually get created from "nothing" (and we can prove that it happens), without the the necessity of intervention from a creator.
25 June 2012, 11:12 AM
#88
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 39,877
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's only a matter of time before science puts to bed once and for all that religion & god (s) is a load of bull****, and is nothing more than " old wive's tales " passed down generations of humans for thousands of years....for some bizare reason
At that point religion will die, and people will accept once and for all that you have one life and you have to live it in you're own way, and not be swayed into believing there is an all seeing, all doing almighty " thing " thats apparently oversees your existance.
Where is the proof of a so called "god"
At that point religion will die, and people will accept once and for all that you have one life and you have to live it in you're own way, and not be swayed into believing there is an all seeing, all doing almighty " thing " thats apparently oversees your existance.
Where is the proof of a so called "god"
It is entirely up to the individual whether he wants to believe in God or not. Why should it bother you anyway?
Whether He does exist or not, following a Christian way of life is a good way to lead a life. It certainly does no harm,quite the opposite in fact, and I defy you to say there is anything wrong with that!
Les
25 June 2012, 11:33 AM
#89
I don't have a problem with this.
Much of this was discussed in this thread too.
https://www.scoobynet.com/non-scooby...nd-darwin.html
Much of this was discussed in this thread too.https://www.scoobynet.com/non-scooby...nd-darwin.html
25 June 2012, 12:06 PM
#90
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Hull, East Yorkshire
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[quote=Leslie;
Whether He does exist or not, following a Christian way of life is a good way to lead a life. It certainly does no harm,quite the opposite in fact, and I defy you to say there is anything wrong with that!
Les[/quote]
Is it ? Would the people of 11th, 12th, 13th centuries agree with that statement when the christians were crusading around trying to poach and preach that their religion was and is the only choice they had of becoming a respectable citizen and that all others were basicly rubbish...hence the holy wars.
No religion that thinks there is a god would endevour to out do and mock each others crazy beliefs..
And if god was real, dont you think he would be potrayed as one image, not a budda, or a man with a beard etc etc, but one universal image ?
He< NOBR>...is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords; who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see (I Tirnothy 6:15-16). No man has seen God at any time--the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father He has explained Him (John 1:18).
How can you believe in something you can't and never will see, or touch..It's nothing more than make believe hocus pocus & old wives tales, that causes more harm than good ( ie the holy wars ) in my opinion, and those that do believe need to be seen by a doctor as they are obviously mentally unstable if they cannot live their life by the morals ( instead of religeous teachings ) often given to them as a child by their peers...
Thats just wierd
Whether He does exist or not, following a Christian way of life is a good way to lead a life. It certainly does no harm,quite the opposite in fact, and I defy you to say there is anything wrong with that!
Les[/quote]
Is it ? Would the people of 11th, 12th, 13th centuries agree with that statement when the christians were crusading around trying to poach and preach that their religion was and is the only choice they had of becoming a respectable citizen and that all others were basicly rubbish...hence the holy wars.
No religion that thinks there is a god would endevour to out do and mock each others crazy beliefs..
And if god was real, dont you think he would be potrayed as one image, not a budda, or a man with a beard etc etc, but one universal image ?
He< NOBR>...is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords; who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see (I Tirnothy 6:15-16). No man has seen God at any time--the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father He has explained Him (John 1:18).
How can you believe in something you can't and never will see, or touch..It's nothing more than make believe hocus pocus & old wives tales, that causes more harm than good ( ie the holy wars ) in my opinion, and those that do believe need to be seen by a doctor as they are obviously mentally unstable if they cannot live their life by the morals ( instead of religeous teachings ) often given to them as a child by their peers...
Thats just wierd