The great mapping rip off
31 July 2012 | 01:37 PM
#331
31 July 2012 | 01:39 PM
#332
Scooby Regular
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 849
Likes: 0
From: Wantage, UK
31 July 2012 | 01:39 PM
#333
Scooby Regular
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,617
Likes: 23
From: 5 beats 4 - RS3 Rulez!!!
31 July 2012 | 01:47 PM
#334
I don't think any contributor to this thread has actually tried to discourage the DIY mapper from having a go on their own engine. In fact I think the opposite is more the case, good for you for having a go.
31 July 2012 | 01:49 PM
#335
Scooby Regular
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 23,118
Likes: 150
From: Notts
31 July 2012 | 01:50 PM
#336
Scooby Regular
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 849
Likes: 0
From: Wantage, UK
I'm merely saying that just because you don't do something professionally, doesn't mean that you're not prepared to put the effort in and learn about what it is that you're doing. Like I've said above, I spent a long time reading and learning the theory before I was confident enough to start adjusting my own map and it took me a long time to get it to where I want. I'm not pretending to know more that the experts (I know I'm only scratching the surface) but I am keen to learn as much as I can.
There's a lot of posts in here from people who don't know anything about mapping other than who their favourite celebrity mapper is and who aren't interested in learning either. However, they still feel they are somehow qualified to put down people who do want to learn.
I don't agree that mappers are ripping everyone one, but equally I don't think that mapping is something that is impossible for people to learn if they're interested in doing so.
If you read Pauls comments, he clearly states that it's not something that's impossible to learn but that having spent the time to learn and gather experience that he feels, quite rightly, justified in charging for his time.
31 July 2012 | 01:52 PM
#337
Scooby Regular
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 18,658
Likes: 1
From: 32 cylinders and many cats
Good post ALi-B. I share your concern about mappers not rebuilding engines and transmissions. It was a weakness I always had, mainly because I wasn't experienced on spanners, although I greatly improved through the multiple engine/turbo/transmission changes. I do have a sensitivity to what makes a car drive well though and an appreciation for the work involved in fixing failures.
In the same way, most mappers don't also reverse engineer ECUs (I don't mean just locating the obvious maps on a known ECU), and most engine builders don't map.
The throttle transitions are an interesting one. A lot of DBW systems are not mapped for best throttle sharpness but for best emissions. They treat the throttle as a driver request for torque which they deliver when they see fit - usually to synchronise the air slug with the fuel to maintain stoichiometry at all costs, whereas a little richer (not too much) can make it much crisper.
In the same way, most mappers don't also reverse engineer ECUs (I don't mean just locating the obvious maps on a known ECU), and most engine builders don't map.
The throttle transitions are an interesting one. A lot of DBW systems are not mapped for best throttle sharpness but for best emissions. They treat the throttle as a driver request for torque which they deliver when they see fit - usually to synchronise the air slug with the fuel to maintain stoichiometry at all costs, whereas a little richer (not too much) can make it much crisper.
I put mapping on the same level as setting up the fuelling and ignition on a mechanical ignition/carburettored engine. Which whilst its a dying skill, it is well and openly documentaed art so very DIY-able and a fundamental base for understanding ALL forms of engine tuning. Despite this its amazing how many people be it mechanics and tuners or not just can't get it right.
Infact it probably takes more initiative and experience to get it right as there no feedback system barring a "by the pants" feeling on a test run.
For example, getting the acelerator pump and jetting right on a DCOE or springs and needles on a SU does require a knack and good sensory skills that no laptop, scope or exhaust probe could ever fully accomplish. Same with messing with the spring weights on a distributor.
What I really find concerening is mappers having little or no proper mechanical skills with rebuilding a engine or transmission. I'm not saying they need to do it for a living, more to say the ones who don't have direct "hands-one" experience of the cause and effect of getting it wrong themselves, I think they haven't learnt anything by it. When people like this are fiddling with maps, its easy to palm a failure onto something else other than the map that was bit too hot for the engine/drivetrain to cope with (especially on aging turbo'd/supercharged cars) as there are so many unknowns.
Me? I'm all about safety margins. I have a rule that power output is proportional to drivetrain and engine wear. Assuming the state of tune is correct. The latter is the crux, especially on MAF based fueling. Yeah, wide-band closed-loop control is the key to making it easier but still its only one point...there is so much more to it.
Back to that example; What was the acelerator pump on a carberettor is now a momentary enrichment on top of the calculated mapping value...If its not enough, it makes the car cough and pink during the millisecond period that you stomp on the loud pedal with delay of the system reacting to it, or it giving out a chuff if of black smoke if its too much. In between, getting the sweet spot is purely done by feel...no sensor (bar a very very breif knock if your're lucky) will tell you this, its pure seat of the pants, as ignition timing has effects too, and its a balance between them both (bit more fuel, little less advance) and then you have to compensate and get a best fit for most driving conditions. Its one reason why everything is drive by wire now as it can elliminate momentary lean/rich conditions at the expense of throttle response (as it can selectively ignore/dampen driver inputs from the pedal). Thats why people with a well tuned DCOE'd carb engine notices a much snappier throttle response than the same engine on EFi. The EFi engine with the right ECU "could" be made to react the same or better, but like tuning a carb..it requires a knack to get it perfect.
Its not all about tuning it right either, its also noticing when things are wrong...bad valve seating, one injector not spraying right, sticking or dribbling. Carbon deposits/hotspots. Hell...even a dodgy spark plug. If you just focus on the mapping these critical things can be overlooked and extremes can cost you an engine!
I've got some technical articals about identifying a injector that mometarily sticks so takes longer to open and liekly giving a incorrect spray pattern, giving fueling trim and missfire issues on the affected cylinder. It mainly follows with a oscilloscope check and it goes pretty indepth at showing how the current/voltage plots behave when the solonoid overcomes the increased stiction. Fine. But if its minor enough not to throw a fault code, the average driver wouldn't even feel or notice it. Would a mapper notice either? This is what I'm getting at; that very minor uneveness at idle, the slight fuel trim values being richer than normal with a touch of knock activity....would he just map it to suit and cover it up. Or would he investigate it futher?
The art in it all is knowing it all and being able to detect that it is alright or not. You can indeed have all the gear and no idea. Some people out there are good enough to notice and correctly identify problems without any equipment from a test drive.....many try to emulate it and think they can, but fail. Both DIY and alleged Professionals.
Infact it probably takes more initiative and experience to get it right as there no feedback system barring a "by the pants" feeling on a test run.
For example, getting the acelerator pump and jetting right on a DCOE or springs and needles on a SU does require a knack and good sensory skills that no laptop, scope or exhaust probe could ever fully accomplish. Same with messing with the spring weights on a distributor.
What I really find concerening is mappers having little or no proper mechanical skills with rebuilding a engine or transmission. I'm not saying they need to do it for a living, more to say the ones who don't have direct "hands-one" experience of the cause and effect of getting it wrong themselves, I think they haven't learnt anything by it. When people like this are fiddling with maps, its easy to palm a failure onto something else other than the map that was bit too hot for the engine/drivetrain to cope with (especially on aging turbo'd/supercharged cars) as there are so many unknowns.
Me? I'm all about safety margins. I have a rule that power output is proportional to drivetrain and engine wear. Assuming the state of tune is correct. The latter is the crux, especially on MAF based fueling. Yeah, wide-band closed-loop control is the key to making it easier but still its only one point...there is so much more to it.
Back to that example; What was the acelerator pump on a carberettor is now a momentary enrichment on top of the calculated mapping value...If its not enough, it makes the car cough and pink during the millisecond period that you stomp on the loud pedal with delay of the system reacting to it, or it giving out a chuff if of black smoke if its too much. In between, getting the sweet spot is purely done by feel...no sensor (bar a very very breif knock if your're lucky) will tell you this, its pure seat of the pants, as ignition timing has effects too, and its a balance between them both (bit more fuel, little less advance) and then you have to compensate and get a best fit for most driving conditions. Its one reason why everything is drive by wire now as it can elliminate momentary lean/rich conditions at the expense of throttle response (as it can selectively ignore/dampen driver inputs from the pedal). Thats why people with a well tuned DCOE'd carb engine notices a much snappier throttle response than the same engine on EFi. The EFi engine with the right ECU "could" be made to react the same or better, but like tuning a carb..it requires a knack to get it perfect.
Its not all about tuning it right either, its also noticing when things are wrong...bad valve seating, one injector not spraying right, sticking or dribbling. Carbon deposits/hotspots. Hell...even a dodgy spark plug. If you just focus on the mapping these critical things can be overlooked and extremes can cost you an engine!
I've got some technical articals about identifying a injector that mometarily sticks so takes longer to open and liekly giving a incorrect spray pattern, giving fueling trim and missfire issues on the affected cylinder. It mainly follows with a oscilloscope check and it goes pretty indepth at showing how the current/voltage plots behave when the solonoid overcomes the increased stiction. Fine. But if its minor enough not to throw a fault code, the average driver wouldn't even feel or notice it. Would a mapper notice either? This is what I'm getting at; that very minor uneveness at idle, the slight fuel trim values being richer than normal with a touch of knock activity....would he just map it to suit and cover it up. Or would he investigate it futher?
The art in it all is knowing it all and being able to detect that it is alright or not. You can indeed have all the gear and no idea. Some people out there are good enough to notice and correctly identify problems without any equipment from a test drive.....many try to emulate it and think they can, but fail. Both DIY and alleged Professionals.
31 July 2012 | 01:52 PM
#338
Scooby Regular
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 849
Likes: 0
From: Wantage, UK
Branching out from that is a chicken and egg scenario - how do you gather experience without mapping more cars and how to you map more cars without the experience that allows people to trust you with their cars?
31 July 2012 | 01:54 PM
#339
Scooby Regular
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 849
Likes: 0
From: Wantage, UK
I'm paraphrasing to be fair, but there is a general attitude from a lot of people that self-mapping is madness.
31 July 2012 | 01:56 PM
#340
If someone has a desire to learn and soak up whats being taught, then monkey or not...They will get there..
31 July 2012 | 02:04 PM
#342
I was looking through paperwork for my car earlier and couldn't believe the price of the ECU-TEK remap. £550 + VAT for the map and license and £150 + VAT for a rolling road session. Over £800 for 47bhp increase!
I personally think there should be more group mapping sessions to bring the costs down.
I personally think there should be more group mapping sessions to bring the costs down.
Been watching this develop with interest, and I think people are missing a rather major point here.
People have stated that it's a rip off for ECUTek remaps - but the biggest cost you'll typically encounter is the cost of the license itself - £300+VAT is the going rate for an ECUTek license I believe. The cost of the mapper's time is usually somewhat less!
Not sure where CharlySkunkWeed got £550 from!?
If you don't want to pay that, go open source, there are still plenty of people out there who use it.
I went the ECUTek route as I'm somewhat happier that it's tried and tested software with a full support team behind it; being a software developer by trade I know that open source is often left to fester and is seldom updated given that the developers responsible don't make a huge profit from it.
However, the experienced guys using open source who know their stuff can't be all that bad or there would be threads everywhere saying "blew up my car with RomRaider or ECUExplorer"
To the the poster who got charged £175+VAT for dyno time - that is a rip-off my friend. I wouldn't pay more than £100 max, and would usually expect to be charged less.
And please don't **** and moan about travel charges - find somewhere more local to you if you can't afford it; petrol isn't cheap and some of these guys travel miles around the country.
£150 is what - a couple of tanks of VPower? If the mapper is travelling long distance in a Scoob I don't think that's unfair - and as suggested, you can always do a group buy.
I'm a repeat customer of JGM - he has an excellent reputation, has been doing this for years, and knows his stuff.
Simon has mapped (and subsequently re-mapped on several occassions
) my last two cars, and in all instances, on the first map he typically spends I'd estimate somewhere in the region of 90 minutes (maybe longer, it's been a few months!) setting everything up, doing several runs, road test with det cans, etc. to ensure the map gives me the most he can get from my car within safe parameters.
I have absolutely no hesitation in recommending him to my friends or other people on this forum.
The time Simon has spent in the past in giving me advice on mods and how to fix stuff that's gone wrong on the phone just shows what a genuine nice guy he is, and like Paul already said, mappers don't get paid for that side of it so before trying to jump up and down on these people perhaps some need to take a step back and reconsider their arguments.
People have stated that it's a rip off for ECUTek remaps - but the biggest cost you'll typically encounter is the cost of the license itself - £300+VAT is the going rate for an ECUTek license I believe. The cost of the mapper's time is usually somewhat less!
Not sure where CharlySkunkWeed got £550 from!?
If you don't want to pay that, go open source, there are still plenty of people out there who use it.
I went the ECUTek route as I'm somewhat happier that it's tried and tested software with a full support team behind it; being a software developer by trade I know that open source is often left to fester and is seldom updated given that the developers responsible don't make a huge profit from it.
However, the experienced guys using open source who know their stuff can't be all that bad or there would be threads everywhere saying "blew up my car with RomRaider or ECUExplorer"
To the the poster who got charged £175+VAT for dyno time - that is a rip-off my friend. I wouldn't pay more than £100 max, and would usually expect to be charged less.
And please don't **** and moan about travel charges - find somewhere more local to you if you can't afford it; petrol isn't cheap and some of these guys travel miles around the country.
£150 is what - a couple of tanks of VPower? If the mapper is travelling long distance in a Scoob I don't think that's unfair - and as suggested, you can always do a group buy.
I'm a repeat customer of JGM - he has an excellent reputation, has been doing this for years, and knows his stuff.
Simon has mapped (and subsequently re-mapped on several occassions
) my last two cars, and in all instances, on the first map he typically spends I'd estimate somewhere in the region of 90 minutes (maybe longer, it's been a few months!) setting everything up, doing several runs, road test with det cans, etc. to ensure the map gives me the most he can get from my car within safe parameters.I have absolutely no hesitation in recommending him to my friends or other people on this forum.
The time Simon has spent in the past in giving me advice on mods and how to fix stuff that's gone wrong on the phone just shows what a genuine nice guy he is, and like Paul already said, mappers don't get paid for that side of it so before trying to jump up and down on these people perhaps some need to take a step back and reconsider their arguments.
31 July 2012 | 02:05 PM
#343
Scooby Regular
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 23,118
Likes: 150
From: Notts
i deal with graduate engineers all day, they have the knowledge of the mechanics of design, but that means nothing when they design something that is physicly impossible to build.
knowledge and experiance are two totaly different things, knowledge can be taught, experiance is learnt
31 July 2012 | 02:05 PM
#344
Say when you bought your car the seller said "Oh by the way I just mapped it myself".
Would you have still bought it?
Would it have made a theoretical difference if the same seller had said "It's just been mapped by (add any well respected pro mapper here)"
My guess is you would have a different opinion of the car given those two scenarios.
I have no interest in mapping my car, but if I did with the understandably limited knowledge of a DIY amateur, how could I know that I had got the best job from my efforts?
31 July 2012 | 02:08 PM
#346
Administrator
iTrader: (2)
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,464
Likes: 0
From: Blackpool, Uk. Destination: Rev Limiter.
As a couple of very simple and very "Early learning centre" type examples:
- How many self mappers understand the induction stroke time base limitation?
- How many self mappers totally understand why you cant hold an injector flat out with a nice safe 85% duty cycle to get the required AFR with an inlet temperature of 50 deg C on a forced induction car?
- How many self mappers out there understand why you cant do the same as the above with an engine coolant temperature of 110 degrees C?
- How many even know the real mothercare basics, like the difference between detonation and pre-ignition?
- Do they understand the most critical aspect of calibrating spark advance? (which is MBT)
- How many don't know that at part throttle you are very likely to reach BLD before they reach MBT?
- I wont waste any time by asking how many totally understand transient fuel correction, and it would be an even larger waste of time to ask about transient spark correction.
It sounds like you think that engine management is impossible to learn.
However it doesn't mean to say that other people can't gather that knowledge and experience as well so simply to dismiss every one that self-maps as being someone who simply "downloads some software and tweaks a few values" is very short sighted.
Plenty of people do their own servicing and mechanical work on their cars to a very high level (better than a lot of garages) so why should we put down those members of the community who wish to do the same with the ECU side of their vehicles?
The skill and understanding requiired to undo bolts and canisters is a very, very long way from understanding an ECU calibration and the requirements to make it run an engine corrrectly outside of multi billion pound OEM calibration facilities.
Engine management is nothing new... remember points, distributors and carburettor jetting? I bet plenty of people on here were happy to adjust those in the past. Just because their function has now been replaced with a computer doesn't mean the basic principles of engine management have changed
Last edited by Evolution Stu; 31 July 2012 at 03:04 PM. Reason: Fat Fingers are slower than fat head
31 July 2012 | 02:18 PM
#347
Scooby Regular
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 849
Likes: 0
From: Wantage, UK
I don't think self mapping is madness, but where's the quality control and reputation?
Say when you bought your car the seller said "Oh by the way I just mapped it myself".
Would you have still bought it?
Would it have made a theoretical difference if the same seller had said "It's just been mapped by (add any well respected pro mapper here)"
My guess is you would have a different opinion of the car given those two scenarios.
I have no interest in mapping my car, but if I did with the understandably limited knowledge of a DIY amateur, how could I know that I had got the best job from my efforts?
Say when you bought your car the seller said "Oh by the way I just mapped it myself".
Would you have still bought it?
Would it have made a theoretical difference if the same seller had said "It's just been mapped by (add any well respected pro mapper here)"
My guess is you would have a different opinion of the car given those two scenarios.
I have no interest in mapping my car, but if I did with the understandably limited knowledge of a DIY amateur, how could I know that I had got the best job from my efforts?
It can definitely be a plus to have a well known mappers name on the bill when it comes to resale and as has been stated by Paul, having the EcuTek license on the ECU already is advantageous.
Having said that, I know of a car that was mapped by one of the bigger names and the the car has not been right since - to the extent that the ECU halves the IAM if you go for WOT - so it's not always a guarantee of quality. I won't mention names as it's not my car and the mapper in question is going to have a look at the map... which is where customer support comes in of course.
31 July 2012 | 02:27 PM
#348
Administrator
iTrader: (2)
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,464
Likes: 0
From: Blackpool, Uk. Destination: Rev Limiter.
Gigsy, I understand from this topic that you are a DIY mapper who enjoys playing with your car, so since I see your still browsing this topic, why not have a crack at my questions and advise how many DIY'ers you think know the answers. It should aid somewhat in explaining the knowledge you are paying a professional for.
We all know that huge time delays normally = "Googling" so just have a crack and see how you get on.
We all know that huge time delays normally = "Googling" so just have a crack and see how you get on.
Last edited by Evolution Stu; 31 July 2012 at 02:34 PM.
31 July 2012 | 02:39 PM
#349
Because there are.
As a couple of very simple and very "Early learning centre" type examples:
Nothing is impossible to learn. We were all born with only the ability to breathe. The rest we have all learnt. However, never has the term "A little knowledge is dangerous" been more apt than in the world of ECU remapping.
Where did I do that? I am actually quite well renowned for teaching DIY'ers how to do things themselves and have a lot of articles published on such topics, including mapping.
That' a poor analogy.
The skill and understanding requiired to undo bolts and canisters is a very, very long way from understanding an ECU calibration and the requirements to make it run an engine corrrectly outside of multi billion pound OEM calibration facilities.
That statement alone proves my point nicely. A little knowledge is indeed very dangerous.
As a couple of very simple and very "Early learning centre" type examples:
- How many self mappers understand the induction stroke time base limitation?
- How many self mappers totally understand why you cant hold an injector flat out with a nice safe 85% duty cycle to get the required AFR with an inlet temperature of 50 deg C on a forced induction car?
- How many self mappers out there understand why you cant do the same as the above with an engine coolant temperature of 110 degrees C?
- How many even know the real mothercare basics, like the difference between detonation and pre-ignition?
- Do they understand the most critical aspect of calibrating spark advance? (which is MBT)
- How many don't know that at part throttle you are very likely to reach BLD before they reach BDT?
- I wont waste any time by asking how many totally understand transient fuel correction, and it would be an even larger waste of time to ask about transient spark correction.
Nothing is impossible to learn. We were all born with only the ability to breathe. The rest we have all learnt. However, never has the term "A little knowledge is dangerous" been more apt than in the world of ECU remapping.
Where did I do that? I am actually quite well renowned for teaching DIY'ers how to do things themselves and have a lot of articles published on such topics, including mapping.
That' a poor analogy.
The skill and understanding requiired to undo bolts and canisters is a very, very long way from understanding an ECU calibration and the requirements to make it run an engine corrrectly outside of multi billion pound OEM calibration facilities.
That statement alone proves my point nicely. A little knowledge is indeed very dangerous.
31 July 2012 | 02:44 PM
#350
Scooby Regular
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 18,658
Likes: 1
From: 32 cylinders and many cats
Stu, your first question could be followed by a counter-question as to whether it is really a limitation (re fuel flow, obviously it is for airflow).
You may wish to clarify your three letter acronyms in the penultimate question, as with all TLAs they may be universal in the circles you frequent but not others.
You may wish to clarify your three letter acronyms in the penultimate question, as with all TLAs they may be universal in the circles you frequent but not others.
31 July 2012 | 02:44 PM
#351
Administrator
iTrader: (2)
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,464
Likes: 0
From: Blackpool, Uk. Destination: Rev Limiter.
Hyperbole and sensationalism. How do you think some of the mappers who ply their trade on here got started? Admittedly it will be a learning curve and to become adept one would need to invest time, effort and money but needing multi billion pound calibration facilities?!
31 July 2012 | 02:45 PM
#352
Problem being people with their overwhelming opinions, can we not just have a simple debate these days??
Granted the op probably went about the title of the thread a little harshly to say the least but his point to many people on here is a valid one! As there is a good divide between people of the community! And fair play to zen for answering all of his questions and probably put the op in his place on a matter of things but still in a very professional manner!
as with most of us when we left school somebody had to give you a chance somewhere in life to progress in the field of your choice of expertise, without that where would you be! There are exceptions to the rule granted who make a living from nothing, and i can tell you that is the case with me! I hated school and found it to be boring, i had no reall qualifications but it has not stopped me working towards my goals and acheiving what i have today! There was no way i was prepared to work in a factory on a line for 8hrs minimum a day! That in my case would be worse than school! And i have gone through many areas of work from mechanics through to working on aircraft based out of BAMC (British Airways Maintenance Controll) Cardiff! I had no qualifications but it was my drive that pushed me forward and showing people that things can be acheied with a little effort!
I for one would love to understand how all this mapping works but i also hold my hand up to say i would not entertain touching my daily ride (blob sti) untill i
Was dam confident that what i was doing was deemed to be "ok" it may not be the best effort in the world an that i am fully aware of, but with time and patience comes the rewards you seek imo.
So to those of you who think people are mad for trying can i ask why?? without being beaten with a stick lmao
as take the line of work your in now, if you were not happy and was causing you to feel depressed stuck in a job that has no long term goals or no where to progress, does that mean you will just sit there and do nothing about it?? Granted we all have to pay bills ( or at least most of us do! ) So there is some pressure to maintain that job, but at the same time it does not do anything for your health so catch 22 i suppose! Does that mean if you fancied a change of job for something else that may have interested you, are you stating that you would not be able to do it or learn the required skills? Im sure it wouldn stop most of us! Same applies here really! Please dont think this is an argument because i can not stress enough that it is not
just wanted to try and make people see the other side of the playing field, and yea peoples time is a valuable commodity especially those of them travelling all day every day for work and may not get as much time with their family as the guy next to them!There are lots of varied opinions in life, its not always the case of whos right or wrong! Its a simple case of a mutual agreement in most areas, just like most on here with the opinions of mapper X is better than Y or Z, all those are from previous dealings and what suits your own needs
im sure each of the top guys on here are neither a great deal apart from each other, but like zen said its the loving touches and finishes that helps put a customers mind at rest, and because you have used mapper X for so long then mapper Y may add something to the picture, yet deep down your still ticking away in your head that the advice given may be slightly different to what mapper X has said so it must be wrong, can we all say we have never done this?? I hold my hands up because i have even though they could be bang on with advice they have given, just boils down to my personal chocie which as humans we are free to make, and is the only real way to determine right from wrong imo or in this case BOOST OR BANG
31 July 2012 | 02:49 PM
#353
Administrator
iTrader: (2)
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,464
Likes: 0
From: Blackpool, Uk. Destination: Rev Limiter.
You may wish to clarify your three letter acronyms in the penultimate question, as with all TLAs they may be universal in the circles you frequent but not others.
Last edited by Evolution Stu; 31 July 2012 at 02:54 PM.
31 July 2012 | 02:54 PM
#354
I think the main issue here is the thread title. Good luck to anybody who dare have a play with their own car, genuinely hats off to you. It's not something I'm interested in doing as I know i would never have the ability that Paul has, if that ability costs me £150 then so be it, no complaints from me.
The OP has been playing with his for a very small amount of time (just a few weeks) but feels he has the right to describe people like Paul, Andy, Bob etc has rip off men. That is the real problem here not the fact that some are mapping their own cars. How dare he come on here and say they rip people off.
The OP has been playing with his for a very small amount of time (just a few weeks) but feels he has the right to describe people like Paul, Andy, Bob etc has rip off men. That is the real problem here not the fact that some are mapping their own cars. How dare he come on here and say they rip people off.
31 July 2012 | 02:57 PM
#355
Doesn't make me look silly. Your post is reminiscent of one on another thread where you were insisting on extolling the virtues of the magnetic sump plug, scaremongering and over the top.
31 July 2012 | 03:00 PM
#356
Administrator
iTrader: (2)
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,464
Likes: 0
From: Blackpool, Uk. Destination: Rev Limiter.
31 July 2012 | 03:01 PM
#357
Scooby Regular
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 18,658
Likes: 1
From: 32 cylinders and many cats
MBT for sure, but BLD (I had to Google that and I would just say knock limited, correct me if I misunderstand) and BDT (can't find it) no. "Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals" is not my bedtime reading but it has passed my eyes and been as partly understood as all but a few in the industry would claim to. I'm sure I could debate the question and have mapped commercially (and from the results I would say proficiently) on Subarus, and mapped and reverse engineered Mitsubishi and Nissan, but your terminology isn't universal enough for me to understand your penultimate question. It would be a shame for the terminology to get in the way. The others are fair game though and the responses if they come would be interesting.
31 July 2012 | 03:06 PM
#358
Administrator
iTrader: (2)
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,464
Likes: 0
From: Blackpool, Uk. Destination: Rev Limiter.
MBT for sure, but BLD (I had to Google that and I would just say knock limited, correct me if I misunderstand) and BDT (can't find it) no. "Internal Combustion Engine Fundamentals" is not my bedtime reading but it has passed my eyes and been as partly understood as all but a few in the industry would claim to. I'm sure I could debate the question and have mapped commercially (and from the results I would say proficiently) on Subarus, and mapped and reverse engineered Mitsubishi and Nissan, but your terminology isn't universal enough for me to understand your penultimate question. It would be a shame for the terminology to get in the way. The others are fair game though and the responses if they come would be interesting.
31 July 2012 | 03:09 PM
#359
I think the overall point that tony is trying to make here, and is actually inadvertantly being backed up by the likes of pavlo is.
1. For the average guy doing small mods on a road car, that in reality will spend very little time at WOT being given death mapping costs are very high, especially since a fair few of the mappers out there ARE self taught DIYers.
2. I think there are 4/5 mappers in the country that could answer STU@ internetbrands questions without google, and i think there are only 2 of those that can put a big bhp RACE engine together.
3. When you consider that all this information is freely available on the internet, and you can download a base map and tweek it to suit your car, which is effectivly what most mappers do when mapping a car.
The question is how much does it really matter or how does joe average even know the source of the ORIGINAL base map if it gives good gains and is safe.
One major point that is being missed here is ALL our cars start with a generic one size fits all map, yet we are not rebuilding our engines after 10k miles, so in effect what tony was saying is correct.
There is far too much scare mungering that goes on around mapping cars, obviously the likes of pavlo are not included, he being the only one with the cahoonas to come on here and respond has made me think if i need an ecu setting up he will be the man to take it to.
1. For the average guy doing small mods on a road car, that in reality will spend very little time at WOT being given death mapping costs are very high, especially since a fair few of the mappers out there ARE self taught DIYers.
2. I think there are 4/5 mappers in the country that could answer STU@ internetbrands questions without google, and i think there are only 2 of those that can put a big bhp RACE engine together.
3. When you consider that all this information is freely available on the internet, and you can download a base map and tweek it to suit your car, which is effectivly what most mappers do when mapping a car.
The question is how much does it really matter or how does joe average even know the source of the ORIGINAL base map if it gives good gains and is safe.
One major point that is being missed here is ALL our cars start with a generic one size fits all map, yet we are not rebuilding our engines after 10k miles, so in effect what tony was saying is correct.
There is far too much scare mungering that goes on around mapping cars, obviously the likes of pavlo are not included, he being the only one with the cahoonas to come on here and respond has made me think if i need an ecu setting up he will be the man to take it to.
31 July 2012 | 03:18 PM
#360
Administrator
iTrader: (2)
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,464
Likes: 0
From: Blackpool, Uk. Destination: Rev Limiter.
The question is how much does it really matter or how does joe average even know the source of the ORIGINAL base map if it gives good gains and is safe.
When its an aftermarket ECU, things change immensely depending on whats fitted.
Any ECU worth its salt will have in excess of 150 tables and switches. Many have in excess of 1000, and they aren't configured to run properly for you.
How many people really know what they do, and why?
Last edited by Evolution Stu; 31 July 2012 at 03:20 PM.