I hate the mentality for bolts-on mods (both with cars and breasts )

Seem too many people just want to throw money at something off the shelf, like a "performance package" or a part. Hand over cash, plug it in or bolt it on and then expect a improvement without knowing anything about what they are actually doing or what is being done to improve the car.

Like going to a tuner giving him £10K and saying "here, now go and make it fast"....why not just buy a faster car in the first place? To me, much of the fun is in the work in making it perform better.

Whatever floats your boat...I like tinkering with the bits hidden away from public view

 

This is where people like Harvey Smith should get a mention, not only for his work with Imprezas but also Vectras (thread in Other Marques). Harvey gives good solid advice freely. Things that people can undertake themselves and backs it up with back to back results. This information is very valuable for all of us and gives an insight to what works and what doesn't.

 

Agreed....

I like to understand how things work and get the enjoyment from doing the work myself, self mapping is an extension of that.
As already been mentioned, self mapping is huge in the states and you only have to browse NASIOC or Evo M and look at the forums dedicated sections to see the evidence.

 

I'm going on previous happenings

 

In the attempt to master riding a bike a few grazed kness are to be expected.

 

grazed kness tend to be cheaper though lol

 

Yes but the clothes that cover them can be expensive.

 

I'd say this thread typifies the British attitude of not apreciating the value of good quality engineers.

 

Only a fool wears his best clothes whilst experimenting with something that could **** them up.

 

So true, great comment mate. There is also a status ladder by " who mapped your car". Well im afraid i am one of the doomed ones, cos i have flashed a map which i have edited at least 4 times which i sourced as close to my upgraded spec as i could and amended a few areas to suit me, the clock is ticking . . . .

 

I've said it for over 10 years ... mapping is a doddle.

It's simply a Data Set which is inputted into the ECU to replace the current Data Set.

I have been flamed many times on here for saying such ......

However, are you being ripped off? Not if you have no Technical ability you are not, as someone else is doing the work for you - and labour costs.

Det. Cans and suchlike are simply props to mystify the mapping ...... they are not needed by anyone who has heard an engine run right and an engine which is struggling.

I can pick up pinking from the drivers seat with the radio on!! I can 'feel' the engine and what it's doing.

So, yes mapping is simple ... for those technically minded ... and it's worth the price for those who want to pay that price - individual choice.

All IMO as always!

 

It was a simple data set that just landed a rover on Mars, NASA still wouldn't want anyone other than an experienced and trained engineer dumping the values of that data set into the control systems.

 

NASA have many, many, such Engineers ....... they would laugh at the mapping of a car ECU, to be brutally honest.

 

Actually, they wouldnt peter, you underestimate what it takes to get a modern engine through type aproval and then program it to survive in such a harsh environment as giving it to the rockapes who use it. Remapping hardly scratches the surface of the OEM code in these modern ECU's.

 

To be honest, that right there is the top and bottom of this thread.

 

TBH i wouldnt encourage anyone without mechanical and electrical knowledge attempting to alter data from their own heads with no advice from people who know a bit more than them, personally i am an ex car mechanic and Home engine tuner ( 80s style ) lol and have worked for a Electrical Engineering company etc and now have worked for many years on and off CNC machines as a programmer / operator, so for me ECU flashing/ learning mapping is a natural path. Saying that, i pick up the phone and ask for advice. . . .

 

True. +1

 

Who said they are not appreciated John? There is no doubt the mappers are at the top of the game but whats wrong with people getting involved in what is an integral part of their interest?

Look around the project section and see how many people are undertaking their own Engine rebuilds....Is anyone popping up on their threads with the same negativity as the subject of self mapping? Get it wrong and it will be equally as costly.

 

There are two basic attitudes in this thread, and the group that are saying that paying a profesional is a rip off and mapping is easy are the ones not apreciating what a proper engineer can do.

It doesnt matter to me if people decide to map their own cars, but let's be realistic about the task at hand and the dangers involved. ***** waving with little to no real knowledge often leads to a painful outcome.

 

Thats fair enough John...

Something new cant be bad for SN to freshen in it a touch.....Has to beat the sale old threads "Which dump valve"..."800bhp on a budget" and "Ive just raced an M3"

 

realy?






:l ol1::lol 1:

 

Jeez is that from your private photo collection?

 

With respect John I fail to see how this thread is cocking a snook at engineers. If anything it may well unearth the next Kingdom Isambard Brunel!

 

You never know, he was well known for going over time and over budget when hitting technical difficulties.

 

Yes but what he did do was a testament to his skill and ingenuity. I daresay some of his achievements revolutionised the world of engineering. A truly great man and someone who every school child should be made aware of. You are right when you earlier mentioned engineers not being valued but I think we're digressing. Perhaps it's a topic for another thread.

 

So true.

I work in power train product development for a large motor manufacturer, more specifically I'm a prototype engine builder.

Modern engines and calibrations undergo hundreds of thousands of hours of testing and changes from the heat of Arizona to the depths of Finlands arctic circle and everywhere up and down inbetween.

I've a good knowledge of mapping and what's going on inside my engine and why.
But I still paid Simon Roe JGM to map my car.

Why? Because he has experience in doing such things every single day. Much like I build engines, that's what I'm good at, Simon maps cars. That's what he's good at.

I can also use a calculator but wouldn't want to do a years worth of accounts. Lol

 

Mapping = producing the correct fuel mixture at the right time and inducing a spark at the right time ..................... the most basic of items delivered these in the past, just because it's now done electronically taking into account sensor information doesn't mean that the basic requirement is anything more complicated than it was in the very early days of the Internal Combustion Engine.

Lots of rubbish is spouted about the Internal Combustion Engine ..... we have had it for over 100 years, it is well understood by the majority of people who wish to learn.

A mystic has been developed by the vested interests over this mapping lark ...... when it's all so very simple in reality.

That said, knowledge costs and I wouldn't say mapping is a rip-off as such for those willing to pay for knowledge they don't have the desire or where-with-all to learn about.

 

I doubt it - mapping/modding a car is essentially piggy-backing off somebody else's engineering. (i.e those who designed/researched/prototyped/tested and built the car in teh first place).

In engineering terms I see it as putting a conservatory onto the back of a Victorian Semi.

 

I am not getting involved in this. Its a no win situation for any of us professionals, everyone is entitled to their opinion and those that want to map their own cars are welcome to try. We see good and bad maps here from amateurs and "informed amateurs" and some, dare I say it, other professionals.

We also see badly fitted engines, gearboxes, driveshafts and just about any other part of the car. Mapping a car badly will break the engine. Fitting brakes badly can kill someone, hopefully the idiot that fitted them, rather than a bus queue of school kids.

So the professional way is generally the safe way if you can afford it.

On a slightly different tack, picking up on PS Lewis's remarks about the internal combustion engine. To my knowledge, even F1 engines still have spark plugs in them. technology that [ largely ] hasn't changed since the first car was made.

It must be a perfectly good bit of kit that has remained the same [ sic ] for all that time and still does it's job. The technology that fires the plug has evolved in many ways, but not the actual plug itself.

Surely these days there must be something better ? Or not?

David APi

 

I'd echo what some others have said in this thread, and I don't think that people knocking mappers is really having a pop at engineers.

Writing the code for an ECU from scratch is far more involved than tweaking it afterwards to get better results (in terms of performance).

I'm a long time car enthusiast and have been working in electrical engineering for almost 10 years now. There's a big difference in re-engineering a small part of a machine/program, to creating one from scratch.

Anyway, I digress, I do find it a little dismissive that DIY mapping is a bad idea and engines will be self destructing left, right & centre. Look how popular MegaSquirt has become. I also have a mk1 Eunos where MS is very popular for those going down the FI route, and it countless threads I have read about guys doing there own maps, etc I don't recall hearing of any major failures.

I don't know about the other types of software used, but definitely with MS it will aim to keep a 'safe' af ratio based on readings from a wideband O2 sensor. Add in a knock sensor for a little more safety and surely that is enough for most to safely map at home? I know there is far more to it in terms of extracting ultimate performance whilst keeping it safe, etc.

I think for me I can appreciate both. There is a lot to be said for paying a price to have a job done by someone who is experienced and prepared to make up for it if things go wrong, but on the other hand I'm the sort of person who likes to have a go myself. So for me, with my Eunos as an example, I would be happy tuning the MS myself (lots & lots of info out there for help/guidance), then taking it to a rolling road for fine tuning.

For something like the OS software used for Subaru maps, that I know little about, I'd probably just bite the bullet and have it mapped by someone who has done it countless times before.