jef

iTrader: (13)

as said before testing comittees are often playing catch-up in finding 100% legitimate testing procdures, some drugs are extrmley hard to trace. i think epo ect fal into this catagory, so there may always have been ifs and buts but no conclucisive proof. at the time.
id find it hard tosee what options the governing body could take if he was found quilty.

i ont even like cyclcing , its boring to me, but the ensueing scandals and discusssions are of great interest to me.

be good to hear some real truths of the day and currently

Leslie

You have to be found guilty first though!

Les

New_scooby_04

iTrader: (4)

And there is there any evidence that he engaged in these activities (he passed the relevant screening) bar hearsay?

nik52wrx

One of the most recent 'cheats' isn't doing too bad in the Vuelta a España.
Mr Contador was banned but still rides on, is this fair

I'm currently reading one of Lance's books and I have a lot of admiration for the guy which may turn out to be misplaced

Nik.

gpssti4

iTrader: (6)

With regards to Contador, no its not fair. However many top pro cyclists have been caught and have served their ban and then carried on - David Millar for example. It seems par for the course.

Now Lance has always been at the top of his game. You only need look back and see that he was a top cyclist in the early 90's, before he developed cancer. Personally, regardless of whether he is guilty or not, he is and always will be one of the cycling greats.

jef

iTrader: (13)

same can be said of mst drugs cheats tbh- the public are under this mystical illussion a small amount of hormone wiill carry you through the tough times to see home an easy victory???

hmm i wonder where they got those ideas from?

tony de wonderful

Nobody said it was easy, but the EPO gives up to 10% more power. It makes lance an unrepentant and remorseless liar, think of that, lieing over and over.

jef

iTrader: (13)

then apply i t almost all sports at elitelevel

human eng wll do wha t akes to win,some will cross moral lines others wont. but in an enviroment where its almsot the norm, not doing so is putting yourself at the back of the pack.

i dont know whether he did or did not tbh

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

Speaking for myself, I'm reserving judgement on this for now until USADA release the evidence they would have brought to trial, had Armstrong opted to fight the case. They're more or less sure to do that, but only once the trials of the other 4 or 5 people they brought charges against are finished, which is likely to be in a few weeks or months time. At a guess, I would say that any hard evidence they have on him will consist of suspiciously high or wildly varying hematocrit levels, which would point to EPO use and/or blood-doping, but possibly also blood samples with inconsistent DNA, among other things.

That said, if you want evidence of what Armstrong and his generation of pros were probably up to that you can lay eyes on right now, the best thing you can probably do is just compare the times they used to climb the major Cols of the TdF in, with the times the current generation of pros are doing it now. Alpe d'Huez for example (which I've ridden up myself a few times, btw), is now taking the fastest climbers a full 2 minutes longer than it did in the Pantani/Armstrong era, and the same applies for pretty much all of the well-known leg-breakers.

I love cycling in general, I love the sheer epicness of the TdF especially, and I used to love watching those guys flying up insanely steep and long hills at jaw-dropping speeds, but the sad truth is that their achievements were almost certainly not biologically possible without a little special help. For me, the real questions are how much that actually matters now, and what the sport should do about it for the future.

hodgy0_2

i think things changed regarding the investigation when the FBI got involved, and started taking statements from his team mates, doctors etc - investigating a federal crime

it is one thing having a couple of blokes in blazers from a sporting organisation asking a few questions to having Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones complete with shades and black suits giving it the beans in a room with just a table, chair and a wall length mirror

mattstant

Looks like he did try side stepping perjuring himself in court then

http://uk.msn.com/?ocid=EIE9HP&PC=UP50

Tidgy

shall wait to see the actual;y outcome before judging, why has it taken them years to bring this evidence out?

def summit fishy going on, also funny how they release it after he says he has given up fighting init

hodgy0_2

what outcome, he was charged with an offence and offered no defence

just like if you failed to contest a speeding fine

Tidgy

the world body will have to rule. He gave up after they go no evidence for years, then suddenly it arrives when he says he wont contest it.

Fishy, very fishy

nik52wrx

I want to know how he passed all his after race and random drug tests if he was such a big cheat

Nik

hodgy0_2

i would imagine the same way his co-rider/team mate George Hincapie did

Hincapie never failed a drug test either (along with several other high profile riders i.e. richard virenque)

the anti doping regime was probably a shambles, with Team Doctors always 1 or 2 steps ahead, i bet Amrstrong never got a truly "random" test in his career

I mean if the anti doping regime had been doing it's job, they would have closed down professional cycling in the mid 90's

davyboy

There was no test for EPO when he was using it. When they stated testing, they switched to blood doping, where there is still no test.

The team was notified an hour before if they were to be tested.

hodgy0_2

The evidence arrived after his team mates started to be investigated by the FBI, see my post above

And had to testify in front of a grand jury

cster

Well we all know that if you are up before the Magistrates you are guilty (unless you can prove otherwise).
Not sure if this is concurs with the point you are trying to make though

davyboy

He has made statements under oath. Purgery?

There have already been sponsors trying to claim back bonuses paid for his 'wins'.

Will livestrong want to be connected with a cheat?

hodgy0_2

the parallels with jimmy Saville are striking, both accused of career disgracing acts

And interesting that the apologists for Saville make the argument he his not here to defend himself, and why didn't these people come forward when he was alive (leaving aside the known issues with women and men coming to terms with sexual abuse)

I bet the same people would make the same case for Armstrong if these revelations had happened after he had died.

But he hasn't, the evidence is damning and he has refused to defend himself

hodgy0_2

I'm not sure but I have heard that the statements he has made have always centred on the fact that he has never failed a drug test

hodgy0_2

not sure what point you are trying to make

if you go before a Magistrate -- you put forward your defence

and in fact, you would, if you could do it via a qualified lawyer -- and would, more often than not, get off

even if they had you bang to rights – like the Beckham speeding offence

the point you seem to be making is that Magistrates courts are weighted against the individual who cannot afford a lawyer

Armstrong can afford Lawyers

paulr

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/oth...say-USADA.html

Having had a quick scan of the report, it seems pretty conclusive.

nik52wrx

If you had been taking performance drugs what can you do in an hour to hide their presence in your system, surely you'd need days or weeks to get the stuff out of your system?

SkullFudge

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19905637

Tidgy

cant be bothered to read the report, but is all the evidence based on evidence from other team mates or is there other evidence?

Funkii Munkii

When all 11 of his team mates at US Postal stand up and admit they were all doping and Lance was the ringleader you know the game is up.

Listening to the editor of one of the cycling magazines last night he recalled how Armstrong had never been much cop on the mountain stages before he had cancer, after returning to the sport he ripped up the first mountain leaving everyone in his wake, something he was incapable of previously.

He said that straight away the journalists were laughing as they knew what was going on it was so obvious to them.

I have no sympathy for him as a cheat, he has destroyed his own legend but the major downside will be the loss of donations to his charity.

The elaborateness of the whole doping policy at US Postal is amazing, it's a shame these scientists and Doctors couldnt spend their time curing cancer rather than aiding a cheat to avoid detection with their skill sets, very impressive though it was.



Clearly a lot of people will be crying into their Lycra today still in denial. Brendan Granger of the Tele was one of those people until this morning....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/col...the-brink.html

Leslie

All these pronouncements and denials mean nothing when you think about it.

The only way is to have a proper court case and get it all out into the open. That way a proper verdict can be arrived at.

Les

Tidgy

Tbh i think most of road cycling has and still is a drug sellers paradise. Thing i dont get is some of the total oposite things that are being said along with some very suspicious reasons to suddenly come forward.

'USADA also outlines the findings of its independent Australian drug tester who insists that Armstrong was still doping during his comeback years and that tests that were passed as negative then (2009 -2010) were in fact positive, or rather there is a 'one in a million chance' that the readings were natural.'

So there positive even though they came back negative?

'Tyler Hamilton – one of the most cold-eyed and cynical cheats in sporting history who only 'fessed up' when there was a lucrative book contract in the offing'

hmm, unbiast source without an agenda?

There's various court cases happening in the background that will rely heavily on this report.

Wether he's guilty or not i don't think we will ever know the truth one way or another, but it wouldn;t surprise me considering pretty much all winning riders were doing it