paulr

Never happen, why......because it would mean purgering himself in court. He is guilty, no doubt about it. When you have 26 people who all give sworn statements, times, dates, when he took drugs, how he avoided detection, how the whole US Postal team was in on it.

Guilty......100%

urban

iTrader: (1)

I've read Its not about the bike, and every second counts.
Seems like he was cheating from what you read and hear.
Plus - just how was he so much faster after surgery compared to before.

dpb

Surely if the whole team were in on it they all have to be prosecuted

urban

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, one would have though so.

Leslie

You are entitled to think what you like but not necessarily to say it in public without an official verdict..

Les

jef

iTrader: (13)

depends on the drugs, there half life, or ester attached to it - some can be very quick, or simply there hasnt been an approved and reliable test for the particular substance

dont know about EPO tbh, but thats why they would have moved to blood transfusions, to have a source of "clean blood" or to transfuse back in to "dilute" its detectable prescence?? the medic team will know exactly what there doing - and the testing programme and how to beat/manipulate it.

that said - i dont know how or what they test for, if theres a tolerance accepted ect??
he did appear to pass 500 tests without a positive rsult - thats either an excellent medical advice/sh*te testing scheme/astounding good luck/or he didnt use anything.

i have to laugh at the bullying claims however - a large amount of grown men being bullied into submission to use drugs they apparantly didnt want to.

if found guilty using evidence, someone who says they saw him do it, then anyone who admits use at any time should be punished also surely?

jef

iTrader: (13)

id say its extremely likely PED use is far wider spread than a single team - id be surprised to see a team at top competitive position not using PED's. especially if detection avoidance seems to be so easy.

hodgy0_2

if you read the report is says EPO was undetectable in an hour -- if properly administered

and interestingly the report rubbishes Lance’s claim to have been tested 500/600 times

paulr

Les, you sound like one of those people who say the Holocaust never existed.

His career was based on cheating...........FACT. Whether everyone else did as well, who knows, was he a good cyclist, of course he was, but it beyond any doubt, his seven wins of the TDF were based on cheating.


What fascinates me is can you be a good person who does bad things, and it be seen as acceptable. Obviously he was a very talented cyclist and sportsman who did beat cancer. He also does a lot of charity work, which is commendable. However, he is also someone who will do anything to win, anything, and that includes cheating. Can the good be enough to make people "forget" about the bad.

Interesting to see where this go's.

paulr

.....and also that it is the level of EPO that determines a positive test. LA always operated in a grey area just beneath the level that was seen as a clear positive. The fact he never failed a test is a red herring when put alongside the fact 11 of his ex team mates testified they saw him, knew he took drugs. Are they all lying, when the report clearly gives times, dates, etc,etc.all corroberated by multiple witnesses. It would be a conspiracy against LA on a huge scale.

jef

iTrader: (13)

if true yeah he broke the rules and cheated - im inclined to agree with you tbh, re PED use.
his cheating doesnt take away from the good deeds hes done ect - it just affects his cycling name/credance not really a reflection of a "bad" person. cycling is just cycling - choosing to help others will always help others and is seperate ect. his "crimes" are sport related - not really as important as other things. although cheating is still breaking the rules and unacceptable and should be punishable.

also if you think LA was the only athlete in the tour doing this, id strongly disagree. PED use is so wide spread -but until recently was just so taboo and not discussed. with these drugs its not a case of results are exponetial to amount used - they have side effects adn at some point will become detrimental to performance. so its not just a simple case of he took massive doses - more than anyone else to get the better results.
its his big name thats attracted all the attention but you can bet your bottom dollar its use wouldve been wide spread amongst many in the same circles.

it is good its come to light tbh, as the issue will need to be addressed properly now its been highlighted by the non forgiving media

jef

iTrader: (13)

maybe someone with EPO knowledge could explain - i always thought it increased the ability of the blood to store oxygen, therefore increasing stamina/performance. if its fallen to non detectable levels in the blood in just hours, would it still be effective hours later during a race? or even 8 hours into a days cycling?
is EPO a naturally occuring substance in the human body? or is it just detected through the alteration of other body functions - making it detectable through its un-natural effect on testable known body values?

if theres a grey area or natural tolerance accepted by testers - it implies its directly detectable and people know the tolerance levels to then operate within them? no?

edit to add, some people saying theres direct test for EPO levels, and others saying there has never been a test available for measuring levels of it? whats the truth there?

cster

I'll have to get a more expensive lawyer next time then - put your theory to the test.
As regards the "Lance Armstrong case", I couldn't really care one way or the other.
With doping in this sport as rife as is made out, who are they planning to give his titles to - the bloke driving the broom wagon?

paulr

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19907683

There is an explanation video of blood doping here.

jef

iTrader: (13)

im sorry i refuse to take a for profits organisations report on such things as totally credible.

the story seems to suggest the governing body was taking bribes also - or am i reading that wrong?
as for lance being a pioneer of methods - bull sh*t. wjere did his medical team get the knowledge and experience of such methods and be sure of great results and being undetectable? was lance just a guineau pig for his medics team thoughts?

the claims of pioneering methods being used and pushed by lance is sensationalism - these things come from trial and error and analysing results.

i can quite beleive others may have felt pressure to conform to a world which theyd been exposed with the promise of results or expulsion. he may have been quite manipulating to other riders - but everyone has free will to an extent.
the article goes no way in explaining how long an effective period these things have. id agree its a well organised set up aimed at passing known testing procedures - pioneering, or the extent of the manipulation used by Lance id seriously question.
so there was no test for EPO until 2004, when transfusing become the choice of those attempting to cheat?
id say creating a level paying feild is what evryone was caught up in - due to the apparant edge EPO gave.
Lance seems to be a victim of his success - and popularity and circumstance. but its a situation he put himself in and has only himself to blame - its his popularity of his lifes story that brought this on him - without the situation he seemed to overcome in his health and the media attention that attracted id doubt this situation would have ever been raised.

as cster said who gets these titles now? a forgattable name with little controversy or public knowledge surrounding him.

genuine question - how many of the top teams have a medical team assiting them, and why are they there? for injury treatment and nutrition advice only?

TelBoy

It's been quite a year for whistle-blowing one way or another hasn't it.

Surely the Olympics are beyond reproach though? Aren't they?

jef

iTrader: (13)

just to add, the claimed use of testosterone also - this comes with side effects not always desirable in cycling. and the radio interveiw i heard today claimed he used testosteron in both injectable and oral form?
testosterone administration through oral application has never been a success due to the digestive tracts tendancy to breakdown the hormone before it can significantly affect performance. oral test has never caught on due to its ineffectiveness - and if used would be in extremely low doses or risk negatively affecting health and likely performance.

id guess any endegenous testosterone administration would be intra-muscular injection. testosterone without an attached ester is rare and more likely it would have a shorter half life ester attached - but even this would leave a detectable un-natural level for a while, depending on doses used, a week after administration could still leave traces above normal range. if longer esters were used, it would remain detectable for longer.

if the testing programme included a test for the sex hormone its likely it would be picked up - plus it really needs to be used for a length of time of time to have significant effect. a single or even 2-3 administration of a dose of 100mg would be unlikely to have noticable effects in perforamnce.

half this story i could beleive, half id reallly question. as we dont have exact details its all just guesswork based on info supplied by the media, where genrating profit comes before reperting the factual truth.

thoughts on that?

nik52wrx

Five of his former team mates have now been given six months bans.

Nik

jef

iTrader: (13)

hardly a detterant really

in bodybuilding natural competitions - get caught cheating its the norm for a lifetime ban from the federtion along with shared exposure as a cheat between federations.

and thats in a sport where PED use can be perceived as accepted practice by the general public.

97TURBO

The people who really hack me off in these kind of cases are those who get all precious with themselves, giving it "i'm so shocked, i'm devastated, my whole admiration of the guy was built on a lie"...................man up and get on with it FFS!

This shouldn't change your feelings on the guy, he was an inspiration yesterday, and that he remains today.

hodgy0_2

In the context of his time, wow what an achievement

And I think when he looks himself in the mirror and says he did nothing wrong it is with the, prob correct, belief that they he was competing on a level playing field, albeit a drug fuelled one

The recovery from cancer is such a compelling and human story too, again wow

cster

Fair comment Hodgy.
He has done stuff that I could never do, perhaps in a way that I wouldn't chose to do.
He has his life and I have mine.
I'm not going to go holier than thou on this one.

cster

Fair comment Hodgy.
He has done stuff that I could never do, perhaps in a way that I wouldn't chose to do.
He has his life and I have mine.
I'm not going to go holier than thou on this one.
ps he may not say the same thing to the mirror that he says to the media.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

I think all this whether you view it as fair or not is the main reason that there is generally not that much interest in road cycling amongst the general public They probably feel, as I do to n extent, that what is the point in watching a sport where in a few weeks, months or in this case years time the winner will probably be stripped of their victory!

Beastie

iTrader: (2)

Cant you turn this in its head and say that USADA allowed doping to be carried out on its watch and should be shut down?

You cant have it both ways surely....

urban

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, but achieved through the usage of drugs?

hodgy0_2

yes, and I am not condoning that, just trying to understand his justification (to himself)

which was (probably) that he knew everyone else was on drugs - and he was determined to win.


Above all Armstrong was a winner and a survivor


the fact that he won 7 TDF titles is precisly because he headed the most successful drug and doping regime in the sport

if their was a gold medal for doping -- he would have got gold 7 times in a row too - that's the point

urban

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, I see the point.
But being great at drugs isn't exactly something to shout home about though.

davyboy

Never been that big in the UK, but the tour of GB, olympics and some of the Halfords crits have been a huge success. The press coverage of races other than the tdf has increased 10 fold.

In Europe, it's huge.

July is always a great month!

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

The Olympics generated a lot of interest I grant you, but more in the track cylcing rather than road cycling.

Road cycling is just not that big a sport even in France, you just perceive it to be as you follow it. It's like me saying F1 is huge when really compared to football it's a minority sport albeit far bigger and obviously 100% cleaner drugs wise than road cycling, but that's an irrelevance to this topic.

Fact is the average armchair fan feels cheated by cycling and why wouldn't they? I wonder how many people are really wondering if Wiggins won't be facing these sort of charges in 10 years time.... I hope not and I actually doubt it from how he comes across, but you can see why people would wonder given the sport's history!