90 good reasons to avoid cheap eBay headers
20 September 2012, 02:17 AM
#61
If you chopped it off and fabricated/welded on a decent collector, it probably wouldn't be so bad.
It amazes me with this cheap stuff that it goes 80% of the way to make a half decent product in terms of materials used and then fails at the last bit when comes to what is probably just an extra £20 worth of metal and welding.
That is, of course assuming the ports on the flanges line up ok with the ports on the cylinder heads etc. Again, its costs pretty much nothing extra to weld the flanges in the right place with the right shape holes
Last edited by ALi-B; 20 September 2012 at 02:19 AM.
22 September 2012, 02:26 PM
#62
Originally Posted by joz8968;10794846your [B
latest, redesigned[/B] 2-bolt trick uppipe (slip-jointed, I believe)... How long can I expect the header-to-uppipe OEM gasket to last, typically?
Nobody can give you an answer to that Joz. For a start it will depend on how hot the exhaust system gets and how quickly it cools and the type of useage the car gets like lots of quick heat ups and cool downs or started on Monday to go a long distance and not start it again Friday to come back home.
It is important to ensure that both flange surfaces on the mating header and uppipe are flat. This is very important and the 2 bolt flange has to be equally torqued up because distortion is a real danger. Also, use quality gasket at the uppipe to header joint. Unfortunately these gaskets are an exhorbitant price. It was clearly recognised that the 2 bolt flange assembly was a problem area, hence the 3 bolt flange designed by Matt Clark. Unfortunately that is not a complete answer but with a slip jointed "Trick" uppipe it is as good as it gets. On the 2 bolt "Trick" uppipe you will get far longer life from the uppipe to header joint because of the slip joint than you will with the solid uppipe and there is the additional benefit of improved spool and torque.
Quantifying that is not really possible and a modicum of fitting skills are required to ensure that surfaces are flat and properly budded up.
BTW, I had the map tweak for them done by JGM... They - or presumably, the uppipe! - are great. I never manged to get round in doing a back-to-back comparison on my old headers - but subjectively, via the seat-of-the-pants at least, your items certainly seem to promote a bit of welcome, quicker spool-up on my 20g.
I wish I had developed the 2 bolt "Trick" flange at an earlier stage when there were far more of these 2 bolt header sets about and on reflection I know that a number of people gave up 2 bolt header sets because of the frequency with whih they blew gaskets (often because of a distorted flange).
22 September 2012, 02:39 PM
#63
Back to the original post from Duncan, I recently bought an L reg WRX Wagon, very cheap. It could break or be used as a work horse or standby vehicle. The headers were blowing and according to the previous owner he put on (quite recently) a set of cheap tubular headers bought from a supplier on this board. Why anyone would want to run tubular headers, let alone these, with a TD04 turbo I do not know. A complete and utter waste of money and a step backwards IMHO.
As removed from the car.
You can see the crack. Somebody has obviously had a go at repairing these previously and even if they did repair them the crack has simply extended beyond the welded area or is it crow poo?
When these headers don't crack at the collector they usually crack round the weld at the woven flexi joint.
When I went to remove the Lambda sensor this is what happened. Very thin material, not thick enough for the intended purpose and no point trying to modify these headers to improve them because you are already working on something that is unsatisfactory, even from new.
They are cheap, they are made from cheap thin material and of a quality that makes them only suitable for very short term use.
Please note the rusty stainless steel
The material is so thin that screwing out the Lambda sensor boss complete with Lambda sensor took very little force and it didn't take a lot of effort with the boss (which is of inferior quality) in the vice to remove the Lambda sensor.
As removed from the car.
You can see the crack. Somebody has obviously had a go at repairing these previously and even if they did repair them the crack has simply extended beyond the welded area or is it crow poo?
When these headers don't crack at the collector they usually crack round the weld at the woven flexi joint.
When I went to remove the Lambda sensor this is what happened. Very thin material, not thick enough for the intended purpose and no point trying to modify these headers to improve them because you are already working on something that is unsatisfactory, even from new.
They are cheap, they are made from cheap thin material and of a quality that makes them only suitable for very short term use.
Please note the rusty stainless steel
The material is so thin that screwing out the Lambda sensor boss complete with Lambda sensor took very little force and it didn't take a lot of effort with the boss (which is of inferior quality) in the vice to remove the Lambda sensor.
Last edited by harvey; 22 September 2012 at 02:47 PM. Reason: Additional information
22 September 2012, 06:03 PM
#64
Sorry for Tardy response Harvey- actually the further threads after mine actually make even more sense on the theory side of things. I'm going to go all in as I think the theory is sound. I take it that your kit comes with all gaskets etc so it can be done with all your kit contains? PM you paypal details and an invoice and we'll get it done.
Have to devote time to getting my swirlpot installed as the surge issue is both irritating and concerning. needless to say we will have the hard evidence at Surrey Rolling Road on the whole issue of RCMs V Harvey "Tricky" and we can answer the debate once and for all.
Have to devote time to getting my swirlpot installed as the surge issue is both irritating and concerning. needless to say we will have the hard evidence at Surrey Rolling Road on the whole issue of RCMs V Harvey "Tricky" and we can answer the debate once and for all.
The uppipe comes to you DEI heat wrapped with 5 new studs. A new 3 bolt gasket is £14.00 which I think is a rip off but I have no control over that. On my own car I would reuse the gasket if it was in good condition but you don't know the condition until you have the existing uppipe off unfortunately.
Let me know what turbo you are running. Who is mapping your car?
22 September 2012, 06:22 PM
#65
Cheers harvey.
I got your items all fitted by RCM - I think Matt may have worked on my car too - so I'm sure they will have paid attention to everything, etc.
BTW, interestingly, that hole in those headers above looks just like what happened to my old ones - aftermarket equal-length tubular jobs (with an eccentric built-in twin-venturi uppipe). I think they were Syms, but not sure; as they were on the car when I acquired her.
When Olly showed me the failure in the collector, they had a hole about twice as big as that one above; and the thickness of the the steel was equally as thin.
...Hence, why at the time, the car sounded like a tractor-***-Harley hybrid!
I got your items all fitted by RCM - I think Matt may have worked on my car too - so I'm sure they will have paid attention to everything, etc.
BTW, interestingly, that hole in those headers above looks just like what happened to my old ones - aftermarket equal-length tubular jobs (with an eccentric built-in twin-venturi uppipe). I think they were Syms, but not sure; as they were on the car when I acquired her.
When Olly showed me the failure in the collector, they had a hole about twice as big as that one above; and the thickness of the the steel was equally as thin.
...Hence, why at the time, the car sounded like a tractor-***-Harley hybrid!
Last edited by joz8968; 22 September 2012 at 06:45 PM.
22 September 2012, 06:38 PM
#66
They look like mild steel...I wonder if they were chrome plated and sold as stainless?
This is pretty common in classic motorbike circles where alot of stuff sold as polished stainless turns out to be plated. To make it worse, if there is nickel plating before the chrome top layer it makes it ten times worse (steel is a anode to the Nickel)
The exception is if its been wrapped (wrapping stainless prevents the protective layer of iron-chromium oxide forming..., combine that with a low chrome content steel and well, it'll look pretty shabby pretty quickly ( I learnt that when I left a damp cloth inside my camping saucepan after cleaning it with a scouring pad and leaving it in the shed until the next time I went camping
).Still, shyte manifolds regardless of the type of steel or plating used
.
Last edited by ALi-B; 22 September 2012 at 06:57 PM.
23 September 2012, 12:27 PM
#67
They are poor quality stainless steel which is why they are rusting.
If they were nickel chrome plated on stainless steel the effect of corrosion would be that the chrome peeled off in small strips. The nickel is a substrate because the chrome will not go on to mild steel direct and when chrome plating was common the steel component was copper plated, then nickel plated and finally chrome plated.
Headers are not something that lend themselves to electro plating because the current cannot get in to areas of the pipework facing away from the anode and there is no current possible where all four pipes come together. These are known as low current density areas.
The bright tubular headers that you generally see, even from poor grade stainless steel, are polished during the manufacturing process before they are cut in to six metre lengths and after fabrication spatter is removed and a final buff polishing process to give the very attractive appearance that is possible regardless of the stainless used.
Not quite. The anode is nickel and the cathode is the steel item to be plated.
On a quality job, not headers because they are not an item that will be satisfactorily electro plated, there is a flash copper plate used as a substrate and key, followed by nickel plating, perhaps 10 microns followed by a thin chrome flash to cover the nickel. Interestingly, while the anode for the copper and nickel plating are copper and nickel 99.99% purity, the anode for chrome plating is actually lead. Figure that one out
If they were nickel chrome plated on stainless steel the effect of corrosion would be that the chrome peeled off in small strips. The nickel is a substrate because the chrome will not go on to mild steel direct and when chrome plating was common the steel component was copper plated, then nickel plated and finally chrome plated.
Headers are not something that lend themselves to electro plating because the current cannot get in to areas of the pipework facing away from the anode and there is no current possible where all four pipes come together. These are known as low current density areas.
The bright tubular headers that you generally see, even from poor grade stainless steel, are polished during the manufacturing process before they are cut in to six metre lengths and after fabrication spatter is removed and a final buff polishing process to give the very attractive appearance that is possible regardless of the stainless used.
(steel is a anode to the Nickel)
On a quality job, not headers because they are not an item that will be satisfactorily electro plated, there is a flash copper plate used as a substrate and key, followed by nickel plating, perhaps 10 microns followed by a thin chrome flash to cover the nickel. Interestingly, while the anode for the copper and nickel plating are copper and nickel 99.99% purity, the anode for chrome plating is actually lead. Figure that one out
Last edited by harvey; 24 September 2012 at 09:44 AM. Reason: Spelling.
01 October 2012, 05:18 PM
#71
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I wouldn't normally disagree with you Harvey as we seem to see eye to eye on a lot of things. However, your statement is a bit sweeping in general and flawed, as whilst your trick uppipe may improve the cars at the lower end of the spectrum (Very well in fact as I have first hand experience of it), it may limit those at the higher end of it.
Martyn, as requested here are my results from fitting Harveys Up-Pipe. That is the only thing which had been changed. Blue graph is with the Up-Pipe fitted.
And with Meths:
Last edited by chrisdicko; 01 October 2012 at 05:18 PM. Reason: Spelling
02 October 2012, 11:41 AM
#78
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It does initially spool up slightly late, but when you change gear at +6500rpm the engine RPM doesn't reduce so much that I feel any lag at all. From first hand experience I can confirm there is no lag on the SC54 when I'm going through the gears (don't confuse later spooling with lag).
All my opinion of cause.
All my opinion of cause.
03 October 2012, 10:25 AM
#79
Well done Chris and your point about confusing late spool and lag is well made.
You agreed that the "Trick" uppipe improved cars at the lower end of the spectrum very well. Thank you. Now Chris has posted his graphs on his 2.1 equipped with the original uppipe supplied and then last weekend the graph for the same car, the only change being the Trick uppipe.
Chris himself said he was a little sceptical because my claims were considerable but I think the improvements exceeded his expectations.
I said earlier in this thread there would be a significan improvement in spool and an increase in torque right across the rev range and that is exactly what Chris has proven. This is only one of numerous similar outcomes. Your concern was a lack of top end performance. I only expected the car to produce similar top end power from past experiences so the fact it has produced more top end power is a pleasant bonus 520 -v- 530 bhp on petrol only but these uppipes do exactly what I say, regardless of whether the car is 380 bhp or 500+ bhp.
I don't think there is a lot of point fitting these tubular headers below that power band where ported headers and matched uppipe are the best option.
Earlier spool. More torque right across the rev range.
Approximately, here are the torque gains :
3500 RPM +21 lbs.ft.
4000 RPM +32
4500 RPM +54
5000 RPM +68
5500 RPM +50
6000 RPM +32
6500 RPM +21
Now for an expediture of £155 on a Trick uppipe, DEI heat wrapped, with five new Subaru studs plus a remap I expect that is the most cost effective modification Chris and many others have ever had.
I wouldn't normally disagree with you Harvey as we seem to see eye to eye on a lot of things. However, your statement is a bit sweeping in general and flawed, as whilst your trick uppipe may improve the cars at the lower end of the spectrum (Very well in fact as I have first hand experience of it), it may limit those at the higher end of it.
I haven't, but I'm really interested in your findings as to whether a 500+ bhp car would continue to keep all of its headline figure when swapped to your trick up pipe.
A step down in size is by nature a restriction, whether that restriction is enough to cause a loss of power needs to be proven of course.
Back to back reqd I think
A step down in size is by nature a restriction, whether that restriction is enough to cause a loss of power needs to be proven of course.
Back to back reqd I think
Chris himself said he was a little sceptical because my claims were considerable but I think the improvements exceeded his expectations.
I said earlier in this thread there would be a significan improvement in spool and an increase in torque right across the rev range and that is exactly what Chris has proven. This is only one of numerous similar outcomes. Your concern was a lack of top end performance. I only expected the car to produce similar top end power from past experiences so the fact it has produced more top end power is a pleasant bonus 520 -v- 530 bhp on petrol only but these uppipes do exactly what I say, regardless of whether the car is 380 bhp or 500+ bhp.
I don't think there is a lot of point fitting these tubular headers below that power band where ported headers and matched uppipe are the best option.
Earlier spool. More torque right across the rev range.
Approximately, here are the torque gains :
3500 RPM +21 lbs.ft.
4000 RPM +32
4500 RPM +54
5000 RPM +68
5500 RPM +50
6000 RPM +32
6500 RPM +21
Now for an expediture of £155 on a Trick uppipe, DEI heat wrapped, with five new Subaru studs plus a remap I expect that is the most cost effective modification Chris and many others have ever had.
06 October 2012, 12:23 PM
#81
as whilst your trick uppipe may improve the cars at the lower end of the spectrum (Very well in fact as I have first hand experience of it), it may limit those at the higher end of it.
06 December 2012, 10:52 AM
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Some of the poorer made ones of the three named above are barely better than the original top mount. In fact I always maintain, that if you went to the trouble of fitting the top mount in the front mount position it would actually be better. Certainly, I'd stake money on it if you used one of the larger Version 8 or Hawkeye top mounts.
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06 December 2012, 01:39 PM
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I don't agree with that, in our experience the only 'cheaper' type Front mount kit worth fitting is the Hybrid GT2. Sure it's a bit more money than Japspeed, Autobahn and Toyosport..... But it works well.
Some of the poorer made ones of the three named above are barely better than the original top mount. In fact I always maintain, that if you went to the trouble of fitting the top mount in the front mount position it would actually be better. Certainly, I'd stake money on it if you used one of the larger Version 8 or Hawkeye top mounts.
David APi
Some of the poorer made ones of the three named above are barely better than the original top mount. In fact I always maintain, that if you went to the trouble of fitting the top mount in the front mount position it would actually be better. Certainly, I'd stake money on it if you used one of the larger Version 8 or Hawkeye top mounts.
David APi
So what's the problem with them didn't think you could go far wrong with a Fmic fella?
06 December 2012, 01:54 PM
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It's all about the quality of the radiator itself, the cheaper ones have a very restrictive radiator core and the air won't flow through them properly. [ Deliberately keeping this non technical ]
In fact in nearly all cases, the piping costs more to make than the radiators [ of the cheaper brands ] and when you look internally at the quality of the welding on the pipes you will understand how bad the rad. actually is.
No such problem with a Hybrid, We, and others, have had well over 650 hp out of one They perform faultlessly and are well worth paying a bit more for.
One of those cases where cheap isn't the solution - it rarely is .....
There are front mounts and Front mounts, just as there are cars and Rolls Royces,
David APi
In fact in nearly all cases, the piping costs more to make than the radiators [ of the cheaper brands ] and when you look internally at the quality of the welding on the pipes you will understand how bad the rad. actually is.
No such problem with a Hybrid, We, and others, have had well over 650 hp out of one They perform faultlessly and are well worth paying a bit more for.
One of those cases where cheap isn't the solution - it rarely is .....
There are front mounts and Front mounts, just as there are cars and Rolls Royces,
David APi