Lydia72

City of Pity or City of Principles?
Don't know about you but if i was the victim of a miscarriage of justice i could probably count on the support of my family and close friends and hopefully a few more but to have a whole city stand behind you, for twenty three years...i think thats quite amazing actually.
It might have been Liverpool fans who died but they certainly were not all Scousers, some had no connection to the city other than they supported the team, the city still stood beside them. They city didn't just sing "You'll Never Walk Alone" they did, and still do, mean every single word.

grovesy

"You'll Never Walk Alone"

Good way to get the country on your side. Copy a song from Celtic, a team famous for hating England and praising the IRA

FlightMan

96 people died. Why should the families need to "get people on their side"? Are you suggesting each disaster involving loss of life should have a song to go with it?

What are you, 12?

**** off.

I'm out of this thread.

An0n0m0us

Jolly good, another Liverpool supporter who can't handle debate and has to result to insults and leaving stamping their feet just because people have different views to their own.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Good to see that as usual a 'discussion' involving football descends into the usual retarded slanging match between 'rival' sets of 'fans'.

Seems even the deaths of 96 people can't bring about some mutual understanding and respect!

Football - a sport for the stupid!

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

Wow. An unattributed, unlinked quote. What a great source. It was ignored because it isn't credible at all. Did you read the link I posted?

Guess not.

I'm not a Liverpool fan and I still think you are a ****.

I'm with flightman I hope nothing like this ever happens to one of your family. You'll realise what an absolute **** you are.

5t.

PeteBrant

WHat on earth has this got to do with anything? Even if it were true (which it isn't - You'll never walk alone was of course recorded by Gerry and the Pacemakers ( a Liverpudlian band) which was quickly adpoted by the fan sof the club. Celtic (amongst other clubs) adopted it later.

Hilsborough is an event which goes way beyond football and petty rivaliries.

An0n0m0us

I won't bother lowering myself to your level so stick your abuse where the sun doesn't shine.

So 96 people died from a huge crush. So if no Liverpool fans pushed from the back how exactly did it happen then? This crush in your mind just seems to have happened with no one to blame other than the police so unless the police did the pushing the crush happened with no pushing from anyone? Amazing.

DJ Dunk

iTrader: (5)

I don't think Football has anything to do with it. Just some posters showing their true colours and spouting their bigoted views, too blinded by what they believe to be allegiance to their tribe; failing to see that what really matters is that peoples loved ones have died and it could have been prevented. Airing a lack of humlilty is easy when you're sat behind a keyboard. I doubt they'd display the same when face to face with those directly affected.

CrisPDuk

There's a big difference between debating, and being plain offensive, which is all the troll grovesy ever is

Geezer

Well, I wasn't there, and neither, I suppose, were you. However, my brother was there. He is a huge Liverpool fan, he was greatly upset by the events, but still, he recognises that a portion of the blame, as he witnessed things, is to the fans.

A small portion, but still contributed, nonetheless. As I have said before, but people seem incapable of understanding, in no way do I believe, or have ever said it was the fault of the people who died, nor was the tragedy sole responsibility of the greater number of Liverpool fans.

I did, and still do believe that the authorities at the time hold the greatest portion of the blame, and to subsequently try and cover up themselves and discredit certain people is an utter disgrace.

No doubt I will still be labelled along with the Sun or other naysayers as Liverpool hater........

Geezer

PeteBrant

Have you never queued for anything? I mean surely you must have been in a situation where you are shuffling along, effectvely blind to what you are walking in to.

To blame the fans is like blaming the bullet for killing JFK. Fans being packed into a closed pen was a result of a number of failings of the authorities.

An0n0m0us

You Liverpool fans just don't get it do you? I see this event as tragic as much as any Liverpool fan does which I would assume is the same for everyone else raising questions on this thread and has nothing to do with team allegiances. What non Liverpool supporters find hard to stomach is the complete denial that any Liverpool fan had anything what so ever to do with the crush that occurred and are all completely innocent.

That crush wasn't the sole responsibility of the police, people pushed that day and those people have some of that responsibility on their shoulders.

Edited to add what Geezer has posted above is exactly my thoughts but put in a much clearer way.

An0n0m0us

Of course I have been in big queues and see my previous thread about London tubes, however the one thing I will not tolerate is pushing and will not be part of it. It's ******* dangerous. If I am in a queue, especially if my kids are present, I will leave a sensible gap in front of me so i'm am not breathing down the neck of the person in front. You can shuffle along and have a gap around you, that does not equate to physically leaning on the person in front of you causing a chain reaction.

DJ Dunk

iTrader: (5)

No, it's you that doesn't get it - or just doesn't want to understand. Read the report. The fans were blindly led into already packed, unsafe pens. Those fans were being blindly led in, not knowing that it was already full - trusting the officials and authorities to lead them in safely - it is their responsibility to lead the crowds safely. How did they know what was ahead? I've been to a number of games and events where you have no choice but to shuffle blindly into the stadium under the power of a crowd - like it or not, it happens. You put your trust in the staff to make sure you get led somewhere safe. This didn't happen on this day. Yes, it was Liverpool fans that were led into that stadium, yes they all wanted to get it and see the game; it could have been any teams fans. Of course if there were no fans then it wouldn't have happened - but that's absurd.

Those who were responsible for crowd safety lied and tried to pass the blame.

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

So yet again it is someone elses fault! Is no one responsible for their own actions anymore?

PeteBrant

Right. The police opened up a gate to releive the pressur eat the turnstiles and told Liverpool fans to go into the tunnel to Pen C. You do know that right? The police told people to go into the tunnel. You could not see what you were walking into because it sloped down, once you got out of the tunnel.

Just try to imagine, you are walkign through a tunnel, is it packed but people, authorities, are telling you carry on. And what, you are supposed to think "hmm maybe im crushing people to death here" .

I ask again. Who do you think is responsible for admittance and crowd control at a limited capacity venue?

PeteBrant

So if you go into a multi story car park, the barrier lift, and you drive in, and then suddenly you find you can't get out because its completely gridlocked. It's your own fault. Glad we got that cleared up.

DJ Dunk

iTrader: (5)

Now I know you're on a wind up

An0n0m0us

No different to what i'd do when in a crowd in a ridiculously tiny tube station over flowing with people, stop bloody moving and stand and wait. Being told to do something when quite clearly you can't do what you are being told doesn't mean you just blindly do it if you can't actually move. No doubt there were plenty of fans who tried to do exactly that and not go any further but there are those at the back who thought **** this I want to get in and see the game so carried on pushing to try to get in. It's those at the back some of us are saying hold some of the blame.

An0n0m0us

Nope but at the same time you wouldn't drive into the car in front and try to push them forward so as to get you further in to the car park.

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

What a completely stupid analogy. If I drive into a multi storey car park I would stop behind the car in front and the car behind me would not be stupid enough to drive into the back of me and keep pushing. Unlike people who are so selfish and have no consideration for the other people around them. Everyone keeps arguing that the people at the back couldn't see what was going on at the front so blindly carried on forcing their way in when there was nowhere to go. Using your car anaologies would you drive your car into a fog bank in the dark if you had no headlights at the same speed as normal or would you slow down and thing **** I can't see where I am going or what is in front of me I better either slow down or wait.

Lydia72

If it was the fault of the fans then there would be no reason at all for the police to have lied would there?
Except the police have admitted they lied.

If the fans were at fault then the police would have shown the cctv footage to clear themselves. Only they can't because it went missing....

If the fans were at fault then there would have been no reason to alter notebooks. The police have admitted they did that.

Why would the police now be apologising if it was the fans fault?

Geezer

You just don't get it do you? Has anyone here said this tragedy is the fault of the fans, or that the police are blameless?

Jesus, you lead a horse to water........

Geezer

An0n0m0us

No one is saying it was wholly the fans fault. Where are you getting that from? It is being suggested a small portion of fans at the back hold some of the blame for pushing a crowd that couldn't go anywhere.

PeteBrant

I ask again. Who do you think is responsible for admittance and crowd control at a limited capacity venue?

PeteBrant

You're not grasping the point. The point is you will have been admitted to the carpark and it is gridlocked. Who do you blame for that? Yourself presumably?

Geezer

I ask you, are you unable to assess a situation or do you blindly follow what others tell you, despite the fact it may kill you or others?

Geezer

An0n0m0us

No one is saying the police/authorities don't hold the majority of the blame and yes it is right that has been proven to be the case by the investigation. What we are saying there is a tiny portion of fans that day whose selfishness to do what ever they could to get into the ground contributed to the crush and tragic events of that day.

Lydia72

There would have been some form of pushing at every match in every ground in the country, crowd surges when a goal was scored was completely normal. If the pens had held the correct number of fans then that pushing would not have been an issue. Any fans that felt uncomfortable could have made their way out, they did not have that choice because the police were herding more people in.
Did every person in those pens behave impeccably? no most likely not but the majority would have been doing what they did at every other match.

There was an item on the Liverpool Echo website the other night from someone who was there. As he was being crushed he tried to get out, a policeman pushed him back in and called him a f*****g t**t.
I actually feel really sorry for that policeman, I can't imagine living with that sort of thing on my conscience. Same as the policewoman who gave evidence that a fifteen year old died in front of her ages after the 'official' cut off point of death. They must be haunted.