Geezer

And neither, so it would seem, are you . Yes, it's the fault of the car park you got in, but once you're in, how do you behave?

Geezer

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

Yeah so I was admitted into the car park but once in I would be clever enough to assess the situation infront of me and take appropriate action, and that action would not be to drive into the car infront and force him further into somewhere where he couldn't go.

It is the same with a crowd, (any crowd will do) if you join the back of a crowd that is stationary you don't keep pushing do you?

PeteBrant

Simple. I blindly follow, just like you do. When you are admitted to on to a train, or into a gig, or to a football match you do so trusting that access has been granted because there is available capacity.

Those people that day were shuffling down a tunnel blind, with no view of what they were walking into. They had no idea what was happening at the front because the couldnt see it.

Its not like the princess and the pea - the people shuffling forward (you know the ones that were told to by the police) couldn't "feel " people being crushed, like any crowd they were moving forward as space became available.

I don't see why this is a difficult concept to grasp - certainly the independant report grasps it, and that's what really matters.

PeteBrant

I can only assume that Geezer, Anonymous and Wurzel have never been to a mass ticketed event where there is standing only. Shuffling along , moving forward enmasse not pushing. The crowd becomes a single entity. To blame "people at the back pushing" is spectacularly stupid.

PeteBrant

I dont have a choice, once i'm in - I have to go with the flow. The point is you have been admitted into a unsafe situation by the authorites that are supposed to ensure safety.

If the barrier lifts, you assume it is safe to enter, right?

Lydia72

See I was brought up that you respected the police and that if they told you to do something then you did it. Ironic that the fans were doing what they were told, if they hadn't they would have been branded hooligans.

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

I have been to plenty of football matches(Admitedly not in the 80s), rock festivals and concerts and never once been killed or crushed. If I start to get pushed then I push backwards managing to keep a gap infront of me. Bollox I hear you say! Well I am still here so it must have worked.

Geezer

By the time the crowd density is bad enough to kill people whilst still standing, it will be pretty hard to get anymore people in at the back, but yet they continued to push their way in.

I have actually been in this situation, at a Rainbow gig (oh the shame! ) when I was teenager. I was at the business end, and whilst no one was killed, it was getting pretty bad and a few people passed out, I myself had to be lifted out and received treatment. But, the crowd were very vocal and active in preventing it getting anyworse.

What was different? I don't know, maybe it's the slimmest of margins that these things go one way or the other and they were unlucky at Hillsborough.

All I know is that the stewards at the gig were hopeless, and the crowd prevented a worse situation happening (in no way do I think it would have been anywhere near as bad as Hillsborough, I might add).

Geezer

grovesy

"easy when you're sat behind a keyboard. I doubt they'd display the same when face to face with those directly affected"

I have done many times.

The point most Liverpool fans seem to miss is they will take no portion of the blame. Yes the police fooked up we all know that. Dont think anyone on here has disputed that.

Geezer

So if a policeman told you to stab someone, you would?

Geezer

Geezer

If the barrier lifts and you see a line of cars in front of you, do you just go forward, or smash into them?

Geezer

PeteBrant

No, listen, you really aren't getting it. A barrier lifts. You drive in, cars are inching forwards. You do the same. You aren't pushing.
Think about what you are saying. You are suggesting that you , in your car, pushing the car in front will cause several thousand tons of metal to all move forward.

The people were moving forward all the time at Hilsborough. There was not a group of 50 people pushing 15,000 stationary people forward. That is patently ridiculous.

Imagine then, you are inching forward in your car everyone else is doing the same. The people at the front are getting cruched, but you have no concept of what is goign on becuase you cannot see it or feel it and the car park attendant is saying "carry on son, there's plenty of room".


I don't think I can explain it any better if people can't grasp the concept by now I don't think they ever will. All I can suggest is that people read the actual report.

http://hillsborough.independent.gov....HIP_report.pdf

The fans have been exonerated of all blame. The history books will reflect this. If people want to insist on being willfully stupid about the causes, then I guess it's up to them.

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

Pete you have the patience of a Saint trying to get what should be a simple point over.

Geezer, if it should have been so obvious that there wasn't any room, why, when people started trying to get out, were the coppers at the front (who had a perfect view) trying to reclose the gates and shove people back in?

If those with a great view couldn't see it you can't blame the ones at the back with no view at all.

Lets not forget, the stand was under capacity because the side pens were no where near full. Given that these things were called pens it isn't hard to grasp they were basically being herded in like animals by people who should have known better. They were not pushing and shoving and trying to get to the front.

5t.

ScoobyDriverWannabe

Cant help but ask my self when will it end and when will Liverpool fans let it go. I was watching a press conference the other day and a journo asked the spokesman what he wanted out of the day. I forgot the names but he said he wanted apologies from those he held responsible, 10 minutes later a journo stands up and says, so and so have issues apologies. Spokesman replies with not good enough, too little too late.

:/ Hold on a minute that's what you just asked for. I don't think they will be happy until some one has the blamed pinned on him and he goes to prison. But to be fair surely some of the Liverpool fans without tickets etc should also held be accountable, but that wont be acceptable.

I find the campaign for the Truth/Justice admirable especially considering the number of years it has gone on for.

But I also think it has caused allot more pain for the families than needed. How can they move on and live their lives if it is constantly brought up and shoved in peoples faces. Especially by people who were not involved or affected by the tragedy but have jumped on the grief bandwagon.

I have a friend who was there, prior to the events he had a promising career in the army. I don't know the full ins and outs I never asked him, but because he was in the services he stayed behind and helped carry the bodies.

It totally ruined his life, he turned to drugs and was discharged from the army and spent time in prison. Countless times he tried to get clean, but it always seemed to be around the time of the anniversary where he was expected to attend events he would have a relapse.

He is committed to a mental institution now and I don't think he will ever be free.

I also find the attitude of Liverpool fans frustrating, we are Liverpool we do things our way. We don't play on anniversaries, agree with us or feel our wrath crap.

Like the campaign against Alan Davies not so long back when he questioned why Liverpool couldn't play on the 15, instead forcing Chelsea to play numerous games over the short period including the important CL game.

If Man Utd, Juve, Rangers, Bradford etc can play on the anniversary of terrible tragedy's why cant Liverpool.

The Victoria Hall disaster was a far worse tragedy and I doubt 99% of the countries population have even heard about it, even though probably most days people come across exits that have push bars which were introduced as a consequence of it.

I just think you have to accept a terrible thing happened as a result of different factors, learn from it and move on. You cant go back and stop it from happening. It didn't happen intentionally.

mrtheedge2u2

^^^^ one of the only decent posts I have read stuck between "it's the dirty bin-dippers fault" and the "it is totally the coppers fault, like. We all had tickets" posts

chocolate_o_brian

iTrader: (22)

I think this sums up a lot of non biased opinions perfectly.

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

If you thought someone had killed your child (youngest victim being 10) and then lied about it to cover their own back, would you 'just let it go' or would you find people telling you to do that just the wrong side of patronising?

It's a good post non the less but I don't think it is difficult (especially for a parent) to understand it isn't about playing victim or trying to dictate to anyone it is a much more personal thing than that even if we can't understand the emotions involved.

5t.

Geezer

And you fail to see that no one has anything but sympathy for the victims and their relatives, but that Liverpool as a whole has carried this like some crusade, when it only really concerns a very small minority.

I think the real crime is that they tried to cover it up, the actual events leading to the disaster seem perfectly within the realms of incompetence displayed regularly, but not maliciously.

Geezer

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Sorry but this is a load of nonsense. When was the last time anyione really learned from something like this? Never! Your post, while admirably intentioned, is that of someone with no direct connection to anyone affected by that terrible tragedy. Very easy to say let's move on and stop worrying about it when none of your family have been killed!

Why should the scum that we are aupposed to look up to as responsible members of society who covered this up get away with it? They should be brought to account and if they are sent to prison so be it. That is what will stop things like this happening again not some do gooder 'lessons will be learned' sh1te!

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

So someone goes to prison will that really solve the issue and make all the pain suddenly go away?

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

No, but it will make the next copper/politician think twice about covering something like this up.

Also by your logic are you advocating not sending murderers, rapists, paedos etc. to prison.... after all it won't make the pain go away

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

That is not what I meant at all and you know it!

We all know that anyone sent to prison will be a scape goat and not the people responsible so is this closure or just an insult to the bereaved?

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

By continuing to put about the drunk/ticketless fans lies?

The answer to that is in your post below...

So they should just get away with it? They deliberately tried to blame the victims for their own deaths and the wider fan base that day. As said, if it had happened to a member of your family and the police put about they were a kiddie fiddler and really deserved it to be honest would you be happy about that or would you fight to clear their name?

Also, don't forget as six degrees of seperation. Everyone in the city would know someone who knows someone affected by it. It's not just their mums, dads, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, grandparents, cousins etc etc etc etc

5t.

An0n0m0us

Ah here we go again, of course Liverpool fans are perfection personified and therefore you know for a fact do you that it's all lies. No you don't. There are drunk and ticketless fans at every game, always has been and always will be and so you are suggesting that on this one day this particular match had no drunk or ticketless fans turn up. Right.

Geezer

Feel free to point out any post where I have mentioned drink. The fact that ticketless fans were there is not in dispute, just numbers, and that is unlikely to ever be resolved.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Well you didn't explain it too well as it's exactly what you said.

Well here's an idea, how about that just for once we do prosecute those directly responsible and make the scumbag police and politicians at the top who sanctioned this traversty pay!!!

Then, as I said, next time others in their position will think twice before doing something like this.

Otherwise it will/does just keep happening!

fivetide

iTrader: (1)

Are you really this stupid? Is anyone? I bet you have velcro shoes don't you? Laces must be a bit of a challenge and all that.

Best to throw geezer's question back at both of you. No-where does it say that there weren't fans without tickets or people who had taken a drink what it categoricvally says is that the blame the police put on it wasn't justified and that there were not significant numbers present.

For the last time the Leppings Lane End was under capacity. There was an electronic counter system in place and tickets or not -there were less fans in there than actually had tickets for the game.

Again, even Kelvin Mackenzie has come out and said that all the things you are saying are wrong and he's a scumbag (not just for this but generally)

Feel free to actually bother to read the documents and get educated. I and others have tried and clearly failed, there are non so blind as those that will not see and all that.

5t.

addi monster

iTrader: (6)

Yes i agree,

Have any of you lot actually ever been to hillsbrough ? I guess not, i will tell you now for a fact, once you are through the styles at the leppings lane end you have to climb up about 20 steps before you can even see the pitch, you are hurded up these steps on match days even now! so as for the fans entering the ground THEY HAD NO WAY ON EARTH of knowing what was around the corner (so to speak), unless you have been to hillsbrough and know the layout/set up i suggest you read the report and STFU

Wurzel

iTrader: (1)

No I didn't! What I said was "Someone goes to prison". We all know that someone isn't going to be the boss calling the shots at the time.

Generally rapists and murderes are not "Someone" they are usually the one who did it.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

On a point of logic your actual quote was:

You made no mention of that someone being the person responsible or not and anyway either way it doesn't make the pain go away ergo your logic is flawed whichever way you cut it!