Martin2005

Partly true yes, but come on Pete, if you want to be taken seriously you cannot just forget to mention the catastrophy taking place in the Euro-zone, and the major suppression that uncertainty is having upon economic growth in this country

Be balanced matey, it's not all the government fault, just as the recession before it wasn't all the previous government fault.

Bristol98

All on tick after they had spunked the money raised from the sell-off of our gold reserves.

Martin2005

Seriously????




Another highly eloquent and insightful contribution

PeteBrant

There are two G20 countries in recession. Italy, and the UK. The Euro-crisis is a smoke screen. France isnt in recession. Nor is Germany.

Are you saying we are in recession because of troubles in the Euro when we aren't part of it; and the countries that are, are doing better than us??

We are in recession because the government cut too much , too fast, and a desperate short termist measure to reduce borrowing.

The initial problems were caused by successive government, including the last Labour one in promoting borrowing to ridiculous levels.

The solution that has failed entirely is completely of this Governments own making.

PeteBrant

You stated you didn't agree with what I said

I;m still waiting as to which of the following four statements you disagree with, or , could be classed as opinion.

-Tax has risen
-The government is borrowing more
-Public services has been cut
-We are in recession

TelBoy

Is this inconvenient? Apologies if it is...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/p...ecession.html#

PeteBrant

An opinion piece postulating what would happen if Germany went into recession? Umm. no. Not really. Germany isnt in recession yet. It can't be until the end of the fourth quarter by definition until it has 2 quarters of negative growth. Since it still had growth in quarter 2. No, its not inconvenient at all.

http://fullfact.org/factchecks/doubl...recovery-27657

Scroll down for a comparison of indexed growth. You'll see the UK in second last place - Flat lining since this Government came into power.

TelBoy

Sure, and we can trade statistics. But politics is all about alternatives. And my point was, and still is, that i cannot fathom how you can support a Labour party just on the basis that you don't like the effects of Tory policy. As if the alternative must be better, even though Miliband hasn't spelt out in any detail whatsoever what that alternative would be. You're a shining example of somebody who thinks that the only way should be up and up some more. Capitalist economies don't work like that, never have, never will.

pslewis

Plain fact is that the Tories are spending MORE than Labour ever did - that's BORROWING more by the way!!!!

What have we got for it? The Banks have had their vaults filled with QE, the rich have had a tax cut ...... nothing which has resulted in growth.

Labour would have spent that money, not on rich Bankers, but on rebuilding the Infrastructure of the country .... building our way out of recession!

Tory waste ... redistributing wealth to those that have.

PeteBrant

Could you point to where I said I support Labout on the basis that I don't like the Tory policy?

The "up and "up" comment is laughable. Especially when the situation we have is down..then up...then back down again. Double dips are rare for a good reason.

Labour policy has been and remains, to have a much more balanced approach to deficit reduction and spending. I beleive this to be the right approach.

Keysian economics says they are right.

And I am still waiting to hear if you think the four points I raised are opinion

PeteBrant

This is the point that blinkered Tories aren't grasping. This government is borrowing more, to produce less. And people are actually supporting it.

This place has a history of supporting the military. THis government, has borrowed more money, to cut it.
This place has a history with various people getting help from the NHS. THis government has borrowed more money,to cut it.
Ths place has a history of being against high taxes. Your VAT went up to cut the deficit, and the government is still borrowing more than it said it would have to.

And at the same time as all of this, it cut the 50% tax rate. And you still support them.

Unbeleivable.

TelBoy

Pete, i can't be bothered to fight your dismissive attitude, sorry. I don't care enough.

Some of the points you mentioned are facts, yes. Some are opinions. Ok you haven't said you don't like Tory policy, even though you're slating any angle of it. Not sure what pedantic point you're proving there. And yes you cannot admit to yourself that periods of retrenchment in a Capitalist economy are unavoidable, whether following a Keynsian path or not. From here you'll just have to tell it to somebody else, like i said it becomes religious and i have scant time for that either.

TelBoy

^^ Just realised my point about Tory policy wasn't the one you were making, that shows you how little i was concentrating. Ignore that bit, can't be bothered to edit.

pslewis

You need to concentrate if you are voting Tory!!

_Meridian_

iTrader: (1)

None of the above. Prime Minister is one of those many jobs where the people who want the post should be prevented at all costs from actually getting it. In the last twenty to thirty years the House of Commons has undergone a huge change. Once upon a time MPs were people who'd put in thirty years in real work, and now wanted to do something else. They were still selfish, corrupt, time-serving egotists, but at least they a real idea of how the world actually is, not just what they'd read in a textbook. Now most politicians go to Uni to study Politics and Economics. Then they get daddy to pay for them to be an intern for a couple of years while they make all the right friends - or run a small division of daddy's firm while they wait for their trust funds to come through - and then they get a job working for Party Central Office. Three years of that and they get parachuted into safe constituency. I wasn't joking when I said that Cameron - and Osborne - have done almost nothing that most of us call a proper job. I don't mean necessarily hard physical graft, just something that was full-time, went on for years, and was their only means of financial support - something like two-thirds of the cabinet are children of millionaires, and Labour aren't much better. John Prescott may be a fat buffoon, but at least he put the years in. Not that makes me want him as a PM though, before you ask. I really, genuinely, cannot think of a single MP that would make a good PM.

JTaylor

Ok, a public figure then.

ReallyReallyGoodMeat

Would we be better or worse off with a technocracy?

Perhaps this would be better than morally bankrupt and career-focused politicians who are just shuffled from ministerial post to post with zero knowledge of the field they are supposed to be in charge of.

jonc

If we look back to 2010 and had Labour won in 2010 General Election, Brown/Darling would be in office. Their emphasis was to continue to spend and, more importantly, spend more than the current Government in the hope that this would fix our economy, just check their 2010 manifesto. Judging by their past performance from the start of the economic crisis in 2007 up into 2010 at the General Election, they failed miserably also. So with that nobody knows for sure whether this country would have been more healthy economically, but what was sure was that this country needed change. Would I have been personally better off? Well they certainly took care of the the upper middle classes. There were no tax breaks for those that were less well off and certainly no cut in benefits for those well off.

David Milliband would have been a more creditable Labour leader for this country and on the world stage. But for Ed to challenge his own brother in the leadership for Labour speaks volumes about his character and to me is a sure sign that he is nothing more than just another career politician. His rousing 'One Nation' speech upset one of the biggest unions that bankrolled his campaign with with talk of public sector cuts and pay freezes, let see how well he does if the unions pull their funding and support at the next election.

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

So Labour spend too much, the Tories promise they can do better but can't and the Lib Dems just keep on apologising. And up until a few years ago, everyone one of them were fiddling their expenses, not because they could, but because 'that was just how it was done.'

Someone tell me where my choice is in that lot?

pslewis

I seriously, genuinely, believe that Ed was voted in by the Unions by mistake ... they wanted David - but got the names mixed up!

This will come out in the fullness of time ....

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Ho ho, the REASON they went with Ed the Ned is because David was tainted by Blair and Brown, as are *****, Harman, Darling, and the rest of the lying toerags.

Leslie

I'll go along with that.

Lost all faith in any politician now.

Les

Martin2005

When did Spain stop being part of the G20?

There is no growth in the Eurozone, France has no growth, their economy is as anemic as ours. This is impacting trade, and even more importantly confidence, mainly because of our banking sector exposure.
You cannot simply dismiss this.

If Labour were in power they'd be having to cut, and they'd have the markets all over them, due to their lack of a credible deficit reduction plan, and lack of a credible Chancellor.

As you know I'm no Tory, but I believe strongly that this government is the best option for beginning the process of rebalancing our economy. The problem we face today were not simply the result of the last government or this one, but are the result of 30 years of short-sighted economic policy by successive governments that created huge public and private debt This process will take many years and cause much pain, but it has to be done.

Martin2005

Yeah tainted by their most successful ever leader.

In fact I think you'll find that our friends the unions were largely responsible of Ed Milliband winning the leadership.

By hey, it gave you YET ANOTHER opportunity to spout the same tired old mantras - as long as your happy...

hodgy0_2

I think it is interesting to look at Iceland -- now making a steady recovery, enjoying growth rates (2.5%) we won't see for years and Greece won't see for generations
all this and maintaining public/welfare spending

what did they do:

• They rigorously prosecuted and convicted politicians
• They rigorously prosecuted, convicted and jailed bankers
• They let the banks go to the wall, whilst protecting domestic deposits

In fact they did the polar opposite to what the rest of us have done, they are not out of the woods yet but making upward progress

All the while rating agencies steadily improve their credit rating

In essence they had a national cathartic flushing of the **** from the system

Sure, unlike the Greeks, not many will be buying £50 million pound mansions in Kensington any time soon but unlike the Greeks not many will be selling their children


oh and luckily in the UK, **** flows down hill -- make sure you are standing at the top

RobsyUK

iTrader: (2)

I am not even going to vote the whole system is a joke.

Why don't they leave one party in for longer then 4yrs. It takes the 4yrs to fix the last lot of mistakes and then another party is voted in.... Personally I'd wish they would all suck donky dicks and that the queen or Richard Brandson run the country.

Devildog

Pete,

There's nothing balanced about spending more and attempting to slow or even stop deficit reduction.

I'm not going to question your comments that spending is up on the basis that presumably (unlike PSL) they are based on fact - somthing that would be easy to prove - but what is sheer conjecture on your part is that we'd be better off under labour. For all you know the current position may have been 100 times worse by now had labour remained in office.

Like Tel, however, there's no point discussion this with you further. The fact that you think that piblic services were well run under a labour administration tells me (and others) all we need to know about the credibility of your arguments generally.

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

Jesus Christ what is it with people on here feeling the need to be-little others who have different views. Quite frankly, it's pathetic.
Ever thought of becoming a politician?

Everyone seems to forget that this is a global issue and is not restricted to just the UK.
May be Labour would have done better, may be not. But it will take a long time to sort out such a massive debt, most of which, lets not forget, was brought about by bailing the banks out.
Would you have preferred that they didn't and just left them to die, along with the futures of many of their customers?

It's ok having a view point but the trick is to listen to others. If you don't, you'll end up like Hitler.

TelBoy

I don't

That was my whole point to Pete Brant

Gear Head

iTrader: (2)

Comment wasn't aimed at you Tel.