Devildog

Whilst the choice of words was designed to "please the crowd" the key point remains.

An independent Scotland, whilst keen to maintain worthwhile political and economic links with America would not, as has been evidenced already, despite extreme pressure, be prepared to bend over to America (or anyone for that matter) in the same way as, for example, Blair did.

Abdul Basset Al Megrahi's release in the face of massive political pressure from Washington to the contrary, and Donald Trump being unable to force the issues on his supposed $1bn golf develoment near Aberdeen despite throwing all his toys out of the pram, being two examples of the Scottish Government being prepared to make a stand. To refuse to be dictated to.

And lets not forget the desire to rid Scotland of all nuclear weapons capability. Trident, and its successor, are American weapons systems. Don't think for one minute that there's not pressure from the States on that front too.

But hey, what do I know, I just live here

Maz

iTrader: (34)

Good on the Scots for sticking two fingers up to the Yanks.

JTaylor

There's Scottish blood coursing through the veins of the United States and the century passed proved us brothers in arms. Going forward please mind your language.

Martin2005

By the looks of it you'd be happy if Salmond turned Scotland into the next Cuba or Venezuela.

SJ_Skyline

Right now, Salmond can afford to be ideological as he doesn't have to back his words with performance. In the event of a "yes" vote to independence and in the cold light of day, the practicalities of many of these issues will be brought to bear. I suspect what an independent Scotland would get is not what any of us expect or have been told. Watered down policies and a path strewn with u-turns is where my money would be.

Fwiw, I think the UK is a stronger, better place with Scotland a part of it despite my misgivings on the double-standards employed both sides of the border.

Maz

iTrader: (34)

Martin I'm puzzled as to how you've extrapolated that from a refusal to kow tow?
Or are you being sensationalist and putting two and two together and getting five.......again?! (I needed an interrobang here).

Martin2005

It's an easy extrapolation to make.

Salmond heads one of the most left wing mainstream party's in the Western world, and according to some of you wants to stick two fingers up at the US.

BTW can you point to where exactly I put 'two and two together and made five' I mean really point to it. Don't just make glib statements. Back them up or apologise please. I'm sick and tired of people thinking that winning a debate was all about signing off posts with silly baseless comments, aimed at discrediting someone point of view.

JTaylor

When I was a child, born in the naval port of Plymouth (from whence the Pilgrim Fathers set sail, Maz) my grandfather, Captain FJRH Pengilly RM, told me stories of his American 'cousins' and how they fought side by side. My father who was evacuated to the Cornish mining village of Gunnislake told me how the 'Yanks' gave him 'candy' as they passed through. Consider that, please. Consider also that Nineteen of the fifty-six delegates who signed the Declaration of Independence came from Scotland and that Scottish philosophy underpinned the founding of America and that twenty three or more of America's presidents have Scottish ancestry as do approximatley 30 million 'Americans'. Worth considering? It might prove fun to look-up the origins of Uncle Sam, too. Hundreds of thousands of Americans gave their lives in Europe during WW2; Pakistan didn't even exist. Before you start cheering from the sidelines consider whether your parents would have been able to arrive on these shores had it not been for the nation you deem to be deserving of insults.

TelBoy

At least the Scots know how to hold a proper fireworks display

Maz

iTrader: (34)

It's your opinion and you know what they say about them? So let's keep some perspective, you're not asserting gospel facts.
On more than one occasion you've taken someone's post (as above) and suggested that it infers something else. Can you confirm beyond doubt that that was exactly what Devildog said? You've also done the same thing to me in another thread, suggested a cynical subtext to what I'm posting. You want an apology?! For what? If you don't like what someone is posting don't stick your neb in, simple. Failing that get a thicker skin. I did, it needed to be as it was brown.

Maz

iTrader: (34)

Morning James.

I would never insult the American populus or those that committed the heroic acts you mention above. My vitriol is aimed at the foreign policy which alienates the US and creates resentment. I don't think the current crop of US delegates share much in common with the founding fathers. I know you favour US hegemony and have every reason to do so, but sometimes this hegemony is selfish. Maybe my objectivity is skewed and in your shoes I may feel exactly like you.

Martin2005

So basically you cannot come up with any examples.

I've taken the broad pro-independence posts on this thread and played back their own thoughts as I see them, partly because no one has countered any of the points I've made so far.

So if you want to start then that would be great

PeteBrant

The same way Germany, France, Spain, Ireland and all the other countries manage to remain self governming whilst the ECB sets inflation/interest targets.

Martin2005

It's a good point. Although I'm not sure that any of the countries in the single currency are genuinely self-governing anymore.

Greece is a tragic example of what not being able to control monetary policy can do to a country. Is this the model that Scotland wants to follow, Tax, Spend, Borrow - BUST!

PeteBrant

The English and Scottish governments would agree rules for borrowing targets for budget, inflation and interst targets and the BoE would adjust rates accordingly.

The Greek comparison only works to an extent because the country lied about its spending. I.e it was breaking the rules set by the EU.

Of course there is the issue that there is now a recognotion that for the Euro to work, then Europe needs tighter integration. The current system has been proven not to work. Meanwhile, a common currency is being proposed for England, Wales and Scotland whilst moving further apart in terms of financial ties. So there is potential for things ot go wrong. However, obviously there is a great deal of difference between England and Scotland sharing a currency and the 17 EU states that use the Euro.

Martin2005

Agree

For purposes of an example though...How would a high tax, high spending government like an SNP lead Scotland ever agree borrowing and spending targets with a Conservative government of the UK? It won't work. What will happen is Scotland will end up with the rates forced upon it by the natural requirements of the UK. Forcing Scotland to raise taxes, become uncompetitive and see it's wealth move south

If Scotland wants independence it needs it's own currency and central bank.

JTaylor

This only applies to America's enemies i.e. vast swathes of the Ummah and its bedfellows on the left. Britain isn't an enemy of America, we gave birth to her.

The President's black, the Secratary of State's a women and the nominee is a Mormon! It's the epitome of modern liberalism! Jefferson (Scottish ancestry and Scottish educated) would be leaping with joy!

PeteBrant

You will have agreed budgets, agreed total spend rules and agreed borrowing rules. How England spends its budget and how Scotland spends theirs will be up to the individual Governments. England will try to main spending on Defence as the fourth highest on the planet. Scotland will not give a jot and spend the money on its own people instead.

Why do you assume Scotland will be a high tax economy?

Why? Why does it need this when France, Germany, Italy,Ireland etc etc don't.

Good article on it all here

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16548644

Martin2005

Your point of defense spending is crass and naive

Scotland will be a high tax economy as they tend to vote for high tax party's

You have already pointed out, they will HAVE to go for full fiscal union if the Euro is to succeed. We already have that here in the UK, what would an independent Scotland do?

Devildog

Seriously? This is 2012. Whatever Scottish blood was coursing has long since been diluted. Scotland today has no particular attachment to the United States despite what romantic notions you may hold to the contrary.

Devildog

There are no plans for Scotland to be a high tax economy, and certainly not on the back of a history of having the majority vote labour. That has noting to do with taxation.

1) Don't believe all the spin Martin
2) Your's was a tenuous link by anyone's standard.

Your *entire* stance is crass and naive

PeteBrant

Well, they vote mostly for Labour/Lib Dem and SNP. None of which are particularlty high tax parties. Certanly no more so than the Tories if you take the total tax burden from, say, 1970.

I also said there is a big difference between trying to maintain 17 different economies on a signle currency without tax harmonisation and just two.

THis notion that an independent Scotland must have its own currency and central bank is groundless when there are precedents set already that prove it doesn't.

JTaylor

The Acts of Union preceded the Declaration of Independence by 70 years; applying the same reasoning you, my old son, are British.

Martin2005

I must of missed the SNP announcements about all public sector cuts that will be needed to balance the books. Don't forget Scotland has a very high % of public sector workers.
The SNP seem very proud of their socialist ideals, are you saying that they are a new breed of low tax, low spending socialist? If so I apologise, I've misread the situation

Martin2005

So are saying is that they should be semi-independent, thus allowing UK economic conditions to dictate their monetary policy? That's not really independence is it, that's the worst of all worlds.

PeteBrant

No , they would be fully independent. As is the case with France and Germany.

Who says Scotland would have the same public sector bills as today? As I said, the Scottish defence budget would be miniscule compared to the proportion it pays today.

Devildog

That's the point though Martin. It's not your decision.

Eire and Northern Ireland co-exist in a decent enough way. Scotland and England can too. And do you really fully understand the "brand of politics" that the SNP will promote?

Everyone I speak to who is pro independence would, if required, happily pay a little but more tax for a better overall Scotland. That's not Marxist. That's just common sense. And thats a fair few high earners who are already paying a fair amount. But the reality is that high tax is not what is proposed. And not what will be needed. Going bust is the last thing that would happen.

I'm as far from a socialist as you could be, but I "get" what is trying to be achieved here.

Devildog

What are you on? My passport says British

craigo

iTrader: (1)

This thread is brilliant. The house of commons now loses out next to this lot. Westminster needs to step up its game.

hodgy0_2

why keep banging on about high tax, you are not going to pay it are you

why bring Cuba into it -- considering they suffer an American trade embargo they do pretty well

they have a lower Infant mortality rate than America, and are not far behind us either