Cannon Fodder

iTrader: (100)

Below is a picture of oil vapour and moisture literally dripping out of the cold side of my front mount intercooler a while back.



The hot side was full of what can only be described as black oil which had accumulated on the entry to the intercooler.

Needless to say the core of the intercooler was like a bee hive where the oil vapour and moisture had solidified inside the core. The contamination was so bad that the core needed 5 heavy chemical baths in order to clean out the sludge and residue.

Now what could possibly cause this? I know the answer all too well, plus two other members also had similar problems with oil accumulation in their intercoolers.

This nearly resulted in myself spending another £2000 on a replacement LM400 turbo as I was assured that the turbo was 100% causing the problem.

So I did a little investigation and even Bob Rawle commented to me that the plumbing of the oil catch can was all wrong. He said quite rightly that it would actually make the engine breath heavier rather than removing the oil vapours from the charged air.

There appears to be a history of problems with this engine build and the ancillary parts fitted to it...

The Sheep Worrier

iTrader: (2)

Intresting (but shocking&#128560 reading this has turned out to be Ty.

Gotta be honest mate you havent half kept your cool about it, not sure i could be quite so accomodating with whats seems to be unfolding, as you say a pucture tells a thousand words.😳

Keep calm, and carry on my friend, youll get there soon enough.

Rob😉

The Stitcher

iTrader: (12)

I have seen a few catch cans plumbed in wrong even my own one that was quickly changed when I was told by an expert that I had it all wrong lol even down to pipe bore size and can vent size can make a big difference in how well they work, and would advice anyone fitting one to get as much advice about them as possible , even seen a company that I will not say the name of fit one wrong lol

I must say we all live and learn and make mistakes on the way this is what helps be better and achieve more at the end goal if you know what I mean lol

Cannon Fodder

iTrader: (100)

I am the very modicum of calm Rob, much as I would like to really kick off that will accomplish nothing in the long run.

What is rather riling is that the person directly involved hasn't seen fit to post up as yet, and yet he has been online both yesterday and today at various times so I don't buy that he hasn't read the posts I and others have made on the thread.

I suppose it is a case of these three characters:

Cannon Fodder

iTrader: (100)

I agree 100% Lee - learning from your mistakes and errors allows you to improve yourself, but if you won't even acknowledge them then you will learn nothing at all.

I am now faced with the costs of another engine build to pay for, and the cause of the original engine failure is also up for debate as well.

The Pink Ninja

iTrader: (23)

Over torqued head stud or 7 under torqued head studs, Is there any other explanation?

Cannon Fodder

iTrader: (100)

Sorry if I caused any confusion with the pics, there are some which are multiple shots of the same stud but from a slightly different angle - so they are all of the 6 head studs/nuts on the left hand side cylinder head.

They are possibilities but another couple of possibilities were given to me by a very knowledgeable man in the UK division of ARP Automotive Racing Products.

If the thread inside the crankcase sections were not properly cleaned up properly before the insertion of the head stud then the stud would never sit 'down' as far as it should into the crankcase.

The result would be that the stud would bottom out on dirt/swarf in the thread and as such the stud would not be fitted correctly and allow for possible future problems.

Another problem they had encountered is where the head stud give issues due to them being lock threaded into the block and allowing the thread lock fluid to 'cure' and then carrying out the torque procedure later on.

He stated that if this happened that during the tightening down procedure that the lock thread could actually be disturbed, and thus allowing the stud to move around to be a degree during the tightening down process meaning that it would never be 'torqued' down correctly.

Once the head studs are removed I have arranged that they are going back to ARP for them to analyse and carry out a report on.

I have to say my contact at ARP couldn't be more helpful and was as eager as I am to find out the cause of the failure.

tubbytommy

iTrader: (20)

its like eastenders this thread........................

dum dum dum dum, crap engine build

Cannon Fodder

iTrader: (100)

As succinct as ever there Tubby, why have the bull when you cut straight to the heart of the matter.

Skaven

Glad to see your finally getting some info on the issue, fingers crossed for the rebuild, its also good to see that people involved with parts are taking an interest

DYL 4N

I can assure you the studs were inserted correctly. I chased all threads on the engine before it was cleaned. It was then given a blow dry with the air gun.

The studs were inserted as stated in the instructions. They were put In hand tight and I stopped as soon as resistance was felt. I didn't want to force them.

As for the torquing down this was done with a piece of paper and the correct tighting sequence followed. I have a picture of this somewhere will find it and post it up.
There is a possibility of checking the torque of the nuts, its on google, maybe worth the chosen builder checking them for your satisfaction. Also the ARP solution sounds interesting well worth the feedback from these guys.

As for the oil seal although on a squiff its doing its job??

And the oil tank I complained to you about due to the lack of inlets ports it required so many tees it seemed pointless and some originals were kept, thus causing the issue above.

prodriverules

iTrader: (52)

So in other words you are not accepting responsibilty for any of the issues already found Dylan including the oil breather system or incorrectly shimmed clearances on the cam followers?

Given the oil on the back of the block and down the back of the sump I wouldn't agree that the oil seal is doing it's job no.
If you look at the picture you will see little notches out of the seal which can only occur during installation.

DYL 4N

We do not know the true cause yet. Ill wait until then!!

prodriverules

iTrader: (52)

Sod the cause at the moment,I'm talking about the shoddy work that is clearly visable in the pics posted along with the noise the left hand cylinder head made.

Cannon Fodder

iTrader: (100)

So can you please give me a explanation that is feasible as to why the head stud nuts are not uniform in the length of the thread visible?

Also do you consider the fitment of an oil seal which has not been centralised correctly to be ok? I can assure you that I don't and neither would anyone else either, also can you explain the damage visible in the first pic of the seal? It was obviously damaged and yet it was left in place.

As for the oil catch can - do you remember the 'idiots guide' and diagram that I sent to you from Bob Rawle? Only after you saw that did you start to take any notice of what I was stating, as far as you were concerned the turbocharger was at fault.

Cannon Fodder

iTrader: (100)

Also what about the incorrectly set valve clearances found on the one cylinder head which has been examined so far, would you like to offer an explanation for that as well?

Cannon Fodder

iTrader: (100)

So if the cause of the failure is down to a poorly assembled engine then what do you intend to do about it?

Cannon Fodder

iTrader: (100)

He can't or won't answer that question Ryan, it would appear that someone has selective memory loss or very much views his work through rose tinted glasses.

Cannon Fodder

iTrader: (100)

Thanks, the search for the answers has been interesting to say the least, there will be no luck involved in the engine rebuild (hopefully) as it's going tomorrow to a trusted repairer who know what they are doing.

The involvement of the parts supplier is purely down to them being able to test and report on their products, they are as 'curious' as myself to find out the reason for the failure.

DYL 4N

The difference in lengths as far as I can see is between 1-2 threads?

Which is 1.25 - 2.5mm.
This could be a manufacturing discrepancy as this is a mass produced engine its possible all threads were tapped at the same time. What if the tap in the one thread was damaged and lost a couple of teeth??

The damage on the oil seal looks like pick up to me, back when the engine was first started. I also have a picture of this and will post.
If the oil leak is that bad why wasn't it investigated when the engine was out??

prodriverules

iTrader: (52)

I agree,Dylan doesn't appear able to accept he is ever wrong,like with the oil cooler lines just resting on the manifold and removable of the modine.
Even though I know that in almost all applications the modine is left in place which is why the take off is supplied with a female adapter for attaching to the existing modine bolt I still went and asked a couple of the builders and guess what...
But he must be right as it's on the american forums

DYL 4N

All valves were placed back in the same hole they came out of. Apart from a lapping in of the valves not much was removed.
I can assure you the clearances were checked and were all ok at the time.

DYL 4N

???

As you kept telling me when I built it. I'm happy with the amount of money you have saved me over a reputable builder!

The engine ran fine until you pushed it to 500bhp

prodriverules

iTrader: (52)

I could be wrong but I find it hard to believe that the tap would be damaged,to be damaged enough to not tap 2 threads and go unnoticed would be a leap of the imagination to say the least but as I say I could be wrong on that.

As Ty has stated and the picture shows the oil leak is only minamul at this time and the little chunks missing are worse than pick up imo,the oil leak on it wasn't evident when the engine was removed previous nor did I notice the chunks missing as I had no reason to look given it was replaced 5K a go and no leak was evident.

prodriverules

iTrader: (52)

If I hadn't of done the mods I did then one if not both the oil line/water line found rubbing would have no doubt burst and caused issues anyway so either way you look at it the engine was doomed so I'd be a bit more inclined to wind your neck in and face up to the fact you made multiple mistakes on Ty's car.

DYL 4N

So the seal has broken down in <1k miles??

You said above it was done at assembly?? If its broke its broke!!

Cannon Fodder

iTrader: (100)

So care to offer an explanation as to why the seal is not fitted correctly?

So you don't think that the length of the thread visible above the nut is at all important then?

So if we work upon your idea that a thread was damaged not allowing the stud(s) to be screwed down as far as the others installed did you not notice at the time?

As you can see and for the benefit of others the head studs are not fully threaded down their whole length, so I ask if one was sitting proud and slightly raised at installation would you not have noticed? As there would have been more thread visible at the base of the head stud.



When the engine was removed it was only for the fitment of a new clutch and not to carry out an inspection of the work that you carried out.

prodriverules

iTrader: (52)

No different to a tyre with a weak point,it just fails out of the blue.
When seals are installed properly and the area cleaned properly you should never have an issue.

Cannon Fodder

iTrader: (100)

Well quite clearly then you need a new set of feeler gauges because either they are incorrect or you must have a different set of feeler gauges to everyone else.

You saved me money? Don't make me laugh with what I have had to pay to get issues addressed, I didn't save anything at all.

Who was it that boasted on Facebook that an engine that he built made over 500bhp, you forget to mention that was with the intervention of methanol which typically yields 10% more power at the dilution rate used.

The sum of the components should allow the build to achieve 500bhp on pump fuel, and yet it struggled to achieve 460bhp and that was with the turbocharger effectively crippled by the engine as it couldn't comfortably cope with any more than 1.7 bar of peak boost pressure.

DYL 4N

As promised.