DYK

But we're British and Europe knows it,like good sheep we obey.

Was it said during WW2 Give me the German officer and British soldier and we'll rule the world.

paulr

The German officers made terrible decisions.

hodgy0_2

zay where just following orders

Martin2005

On balance i would vote to stay in.

Although far from idea, the EU has merit and we should be working hard to reform it not 'taking our ball home'

Also I'd like to know the rationale for leaving one undemocratic political and economic union, yet being accepting of another (the UK)

Martin2005

Oh and the chances of any referendum campaign on the EU being based on the facts, rather than a on the self interest of foreign Fleet Street press barons, are virtually zero.

paulr

Well said. The fundamental idea behind the EU is "like minded countries working together for the common good". Now, because we dont get our own way, we want to leave. Its like the kid who owns the ball, go's home because he can't be centre forward.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

With a reply that far from getting the point, anyone would think you're a Eurocrat politician yourself

Anyhow, the true reason that so many people here want to leave is that it's become over the years increasingly obvious that Britain isn't so like-minded with the rest of Europe at all. Add to that the fact that of late much of the continent is threatening to turn into an economic basket-case and drag everything around it down with it, and you have your second highly valid reason for doing so.

DYK

I've signed...

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct..._g1qBPTlUrV1oA

hodgy0_2

:This does rather beg the question of who we feel more culturally aligned with

Europe or America? or maybe we see ourselves as neither, but distinct In our own right

Perhaps the third "distinct" option is untenable in the new global economy

Personally, I feel much more aligned to the ideals (cultural, political and social/economic) of Europe.

When I have had extended time living on the other side of he world, I miss eruope as much as great Britain

Obviously I am a very proud englishman to boot and the european project is far from perfect

Luan Pra bang

It is clear that leaving the EU would be the best thing we could do for our economy as well as the well being of the citizens of the UK. The EU was an anti British alliance between France and Germany since its birth. How anyone thinks its right for the UK to be governed by a load of foreign **** bags we did not vote for is beyond me.

Leslie

Ask yourself what the real reason is Paul. Consider what it would mean to the politicians to be part of the Eu ruling elite and the enormous advantages they would have, financially or otherwise.

Its nothing to do with the good of the country.

Les

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

There you go again, Les.

What evidence do you have of this?

And how does whatever you have stack up agaisnt the apparent wish of politicians of BOTH parties to blame the EC for many of their own decisions, or decisions they have gone along with, which other countries have ignored, blame which whips up hatred for the EC?

warrenm2

I am truely amazed at some of the opinions expressed on here. Quite rightly, people are asking for evidence of beliefs. So let's begin. Claim 1) EU is anti-democratic. Evidence - France and Holland reject proto Lisbon Treaty in 2005 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4592243.stm), EU rebrands it as Lisbon Treaty and forces it through anyway. Ireland says No to Nice treaty, is told it's the wrong answer and forced to vote again under a tide of EU propaganda spending. Ireland then votes No to Lisbon treaty. Again they give the wrong answer, and are told to vote again under a tide of EU propaganda spending. Greece PM dares to tell the EU that they might hold a referendum. Greek PM is removed by EU (not by voters of that country), and impose an unelected leader. Italy not toeing the line. EU remove PM (not voted out by voters), and impose an unelected leader. QMV increasingly used to push votes through and vetos removed.

If that's your idea of a democratic organisation then frankly you're an idiot. You know who you are. If you think down that path lies a glorious future, you're not a student of history. If you think that more EU is the answer then you are a danger to us all

RA Dunk

Can't think how anybody can have any kind of valid argument against this TBH, after all it did actually happen.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Well, yes, but I'm still mystified as to WHY successive UK governments have actively sought to blacken the EC, to blame them for their own mishandling of situations, to blame them for stupid rules and regulations THEY have enforeced, when others ignore them.

WHY create public hatred of a body that it's NOT in YOUR interests to leave?

Because that's what they have done, sure as eggs are eggs.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

While they have the EU to blame for everything they don't have to be accountable for their actions as much... that's about all I can come up with sadly!

DYK

Les get back in that vulcan,i know you'll make the right choice...

Luan Pra bang

Evidence for this ? None ? Just pointless wild speculation.

As a side note

Shows up the Labour and Liberal sh!tbags for what they are, the entire EU project has become a way to extort and control people and the people of the UK have no option but to either lie down and take it like good little bitches or vote UKIP.

warrenm2

More and more are voting UKIP, they can rightfully claim to be the third party in Britain now. And as most people know them for their main policy, out of the EU, they are voting effectively to leave at the only opportunity they have

Martin2005

I don't think you get people are saying. All of the above could be true (and more no doubt) but this doesn't mean we should leave, it means we should be working hard to reform the thing, make it in the image that properly represents citizens of Europe.

Trust me whatever the question is, UKIP are not the answer!

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

And if the other member countries won't play ball, how many more years or decades are we supposed to stick around sucking up the Eurocrat BS, before we finally call it quits and give the whole thing up as a lost cause?

Still waiting for one solid reason anyone should do that (hint - "because I say so" doesn't really cut it).

hodgy0_2

All very true, and an absolute disgrace

But this says more about corrupt elites than Europe per se

Italy just seemed to get rid of one corrupt elite to be replaced on the dictact of another

Martin2005

[QUOTE]I think when it's a lost cause then we should definitely call it quits. Until then I think being active participant in the world largest economic block just might be a bigger motivation than the latest negative Daily Mail 'Eurocrat BS' headline

I don't for a second think that the world would come to an end if we left the EU, but I really believe we should do it with our eyes open and after an honest debate

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

What MORE eveidence do you WANT than the lies told to the population about referenda, plus the behaviour of UKIP MEP's after what THEY promised?

Really...........

warrenm2

Trouble is though, the EU which is what we are debating, is run by exactly those elites. They are the ones making these decisions and taking our money to do with as they want.

It is surely a fundamental tenet of democracy that we chose our leaders and if we don't like it, we remove them using the ballot box. The EU only elects a Parliament that only amends and passes laws given to it by the Commission who are unelected. Its run by a president of Commissioners (unelected) and a President of the European Council (unelected) Its whole structure is fundamentally anti democratic.

We are talking here about who rules us, and the answer is by being members of the EU we have given away our right to chose who rules us. Wars have been fought to settle that question and yet here we are blithely talking about whether or not we should leave and take back control. It is one thing to be a member of a customs union (note: different to a free trade area - look up the difference), but another to be a vassal state to a corrupt anti democratic elite-run organised crime club. If you can't understand the points on freedom and democracy then really you shouldn't have the vote, as voting for the EU is voting for slavery

Carlh

It wont matter what we think, they joined it without asking, you think they give 2 hoots about what we think? Nope.

warrenm2

Really? What would it take for you to say, hang on a minute that ain't right? The EU army descending on Greece to "enforce peace" over what the EU says is the way Greece should be run? (Or in the olden days we called it invasion). Replacing elected Prime Ministers not good enough for you? If the EU turned round and said "Cameron is being too obstructive - we're removing him" you'd be OK with that? You think its simply a question of "working hard to reform" that ? What kind of dream world are you living in? How exactly to you propose to reform that? Treaty changes (which is what would be required to do that) require 27 countries to agree. You seriously think that's going to happen? Sorry but that is incredibly naive


Whilst I agree that they are not perfect (as no political party ever is, was or will be), they are the only party advocating withdrawal and hence get my vote. Latest surveys say 2/3 of UK now want out. Bring on the referendum.

P.S. Why should I trust you? You have given no evidence, only slurs

Martin2005

[QUOTE]I see lots of emotive language being deployed by you here. Would you be so dramatic in describing our own appallingly unrepresentative electoral system here in the UK, the fact that our political union is falling apart due to lack of relevance and apathy?

Back to the EU... Are we in the UK seriously the only ones that can see this? Of course we're not, there has to be a huge and growing number of people across Europe that want reform. Change can and will come, ultimately the EU will fail if it fails to represent the people of Europe.

I think before we leave we at least ought to try and flex our muscles a bit, afterall what would we have to lose? We should properly stake out ground, and see if there are any other nations with us, if not then we could leave.

I'm not really going to claim that leaving the EU would be a disaster, (well not in the short term anyway). But I do think we should look at a long term plan; where as a nation do we see ourselves in an increasingly inter-connected world?

The really scary part for me is that we could very easily drift out of the EU, and end up in 20 year begging re-admittance with all the subsequent renegotiation issues.

shooter007

Thanks warrenm2 couldn't have put it better. Most of my family don't bother to vote but I do. This is because, although not every one cares, I do. I may make mistakes (over whom I vote for ) but at least I've tried. Democracy lets you vote !! Unlike the eu.

Martin2005

Square that statement with the fact that the last Labour government was voted in on 36% of the popular vote! 64% of people got a government they didn't vote for.
Yes I'm all for democracy....be nice to get some at some point.