cster

Why do you say that?
Both of these countries have a very large number of guns per citizen, yet have far lower rates of gun crime.

mrmadcap

42 in West Germany? Is this current

hodgy0_2

Because America has a wealth distribution profile more akin to Sierra Leone (80% of the population have control of just 7% of the wealth)

Because levels (and conditions) of poverty in America resemble West Africa, just google Skid Row in LA

Because on every social metric – infant mortality, general mortality (actually in decline in the US – for the first time an American will have a shorter lifespan than the previous generation) access to healthcare, America is as far from Canada and Switzerland as it is closer to Sierra Leone

America has delivered a fractured and frightened society, millions just 1 wage cheque from poverty, and millions more require 2 wages just to keep their heads above water

Add to this toxic mix, rabid fundamentalism and the ability to buy assault weapons with your carton of milk – the inevitable will happen, and get worse

The political class are paralysed to inaction by the powerful lobby groups – that can actually get millions of Americans to protest against the provision of universal healthcare as a basic human right, and demand less employment protection- to think they will deliver meaningful gun reform is fanciful idiocy

modern America, like USSR before it is a failed experiment – the only thing that keeps them going is their admirable optimism

cster

Sounds like you don't like America very much.

hodgy0_2

nothing to do with like or dislike, and that goes for West Africa too

just saying how it is

Matteeboy

With an image of leading the World in sophistication and democracy, they hang onto clearly deranged gun culture and also execute people.

I'd say they're still in the Dark Age.

jef

iTrader: (13)

in the famous song by a welsh band "guns dont kill people, (raperrs/robbers do) i seen it on a documentary on bbc2"
for me its more about the american society -espicially at school age. they are so vain, follow celeberity culture so much that many regular people who are not £beutiful" or fall into accepted groups can harbour feelings of vengange or jealousy towards others that confirm.

obviously you still have the outside influencing factors like abuse/bullying/isolation ect ect and it has to be combined with a person who is already willing to do anything for revenge. thats not your average person but in a large population the number that fall into that catagory maybe quite high.

ultimately the person still has to pull the trigger!

banning guns in the u.s is too late imo, maybe banning military style fire arms that fire hundreds ofrounds per second could be curtailed, but it still leaves the rest -all of which can be lethal.

weve had our fair share of gun related incidents here where gun laws are a whole lot stricter

i dont have the answer for them - but who does

cster

Are you sure about that?
Looks like an opinionated rant to me, with a good dose of condescension thrown in.
As far as I am concerned, it is up to them to decide how they want to live and deal with their domestic politics/laws etc.

hodgy0_2

totaly

My 13yr old son is on the west coast of America at this very moment - perfoming as a chorister for the Jesus Colledge Choir tour

As far as I am concerned, it is up to them to decide how they want to live and deal with their domestic politics/laws etc.


agreed,

I just pointed out why they have higher gun related crime than Canada and Switzerland that's all - after all you asked me that question, remember?

I answer - and you accuse me of ranting

what do you think, do you have you an opinion, presumably not

JTaylor

Hodgy, how does your lad find the conflict between the performance of devotional songs and the anti-theism of his father?

PeteBrant

Is there any other country that can do the most amazing things, and at the same time be so apalling? I don't think so.

Its not too late to band guns. But you start at the top and work down. You ban assault rifles. You offer and amnesty, then you make it a criminal offence to own one. In 10 years time or so you start in on Handguns. It needs to be a slow progressive advance.

Something is going to happen though, the one good thing that may come of this tragedy is that America has finally woken up.

BlkKnight

It's going to be impossible to put in gun control, as there are too many in the wild.

I'm with Chris Rock on this one

dpb

That's a very good point.

Other than your average housewife probably has a hundred rounds sitting around from 20 years ago

BlkKnight

They'll run out before the guns break

hodgy0_2

He genuinely loves singing and music, and appreciates the aesthetic and majesty (and so do my wife and I – and religion does not have a monopoly on those)

he is lucky enough to have sung in Chartres and Leipzig cathedrals amongst many others

you can hear him sing on their latest recording – Journey into Light

http://www.jesuscollegechoir.com/site/shop

beautiful spellbinding music - that does not require a belief to appreciate

hodgy0_2

will never happen -- 300 million guns in private hands

and to be fair the Americans they have a very large hunting community who have legitimate reasons for guns

and Americans will always point to Canada and Switzerland

PeteBrant

You don't need assault rifles for hunting, you don't need hand guns for hunting. And if you take the attitude you can't change anything you never will. The desire to own an assault rifle is not worth the lives of Children. There is a definite mood in the White House and Congress to make a stand on this.

Pointing to Canada and Switzerland is no argument at all for the pro gun lobby. Its like a 5 year old demanding to be able to drive because their brother who is 21 can. America has proven 200 times over, that large portions of society they are not able to cope with the responsbility of gun ownership. For a multitude of reason, that country is not suited to widespread gun ownership.

hodgy0_2

yes - i agree with everything you say, and have already posted why Canada and Switzerland are non arguments

but that is what the pro gun lobby use, in fact large section of the population argue for more guns -- "if only the teachers had guns" goes thier arguement

I am just slightly more pessimistic about the prospects for change than you and would also argue they have bigger problems than gun control

but hey, their country - let them get on with it

and there is a lot to admire about the americans, their boundless optimism is one

JTaylor

Yet requires an understanding to believe. Your lad appears to have been blessed, Hodgy, as I'm sure you appreciate.

Miniman

iTrader: (2)

Doing nothing is not the answer and pointing at the open door and claiming that nothing can be done this late is also not valid (IMHO).

I think the constitution needs looking at to remove that argument - and as I understand it, the right to bear arms is not set in stone so could be amended.

Codifying laws across states would make for a more consistent approach to the problem and remove doubts/loop holes (again may need to be approached centrally).

Removing the general sale of certain types of weapons surely has to be a start - weapons that are not hunting or "personal protection".

Looking at where weapons are for sale - dedicated gun shops rather than supermarkets.

Limits on buying ammunition.

Regular local police reviews of collections.

Finally banning of certain types of weapons (with amnesties or possibly legalised de-activation).

For sure this would all take a long time - it's going to cost too. But lay out a plan, please. For sure some will argue you can't do this or that because... Well now's the time to say yes it can be done, with the will to actually do something, let's work through the problems and get it done. Start putting it in place, and don't blame the proliferation of guns as an excuse for doing nothing. OK they'll be more massacre's while the guns are out there, but the end goal in a few years will be worth it.

David Lock

The guy's mother seems to be a basket case as well and had a large collection of assault rifles and taught her kids how to use them. She was preparing for the time when the US imploded.

So it is reasonable to argue that had she been prevented from buying these weapons at her local Coop then this tragedy may never had occurred.

dl

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

If you're picturing a rack of M16 or AK47 type weapons lined-up on her sitting-room wall, you'd be very much mistaken (although given the spin these things get in the media, understandably so). What she actually owned was a number of semi-automatic firing rifles, which would have looked pretty much identical to any ordinary hunting rifle, with the sole exception of the larger capacity magazines. QED it's the type of magazine allowed on sale which would make by far the biggest difference to the US gun problem (knowing that with close to 300 million firearms already in private ownership there, it would likely take you decades to confiscate or surrender them all, as was done in this country). Maximum capacity 7 to 10 round magazines, with restrictions on the calibers available so they're only suited to hunting, would be relatively easy to legislate, and more to the point would probably face relatively little opposition from the pro-gun lobby, meaning it might actually stand a chance of being implemented.

hodgy0_2

i would love to think so, and your right in the context of American gun ownership this would be a sensible and appropriate step -- given the legitimate needs of some Americans to own guns

but i think you are being over optimistic, it is not just a question of gun ownership, it is a question of an individuals rights against government and the concept of freedom

and that is a cultural and mental roadblock that will not be overcome

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&h...&v=5ju4Gla2odw

Alan Jeffery

Even if I was allowed a gun, and being fair I don't dislike them as such, I still wouldn't want to kill anybody with one.
The problem comes when you have someone with a mental illness and access to weapons.
Considering there are plenty of ways to kill people, if that's what your head tells you to do, I'd say start with the illness, and make gun control a close second.
The trouble with society in general, and the US in particular is that anybody who is "out there" is despised, and treated accordingly.

Stevan

strangely in Switzerland, nearly every male over 18 years has a gun, and Jeremy Clarkson tells of the time that he was stopped for a noisy exhaust by a police-officer who ignored the sub-machine gun on open display on the front seat.
So perhaps more the people than the guns, maybe they should ban americans not the guns

dpb

******* hilarious, yesterday was gun shops busiest days sale in several twenty years

jef

iTrader: (13)

ironic rather than hilarious imo dpb,

how mnay hunters are there in america??? im surprised theres any wildlife left.

many gunsmiths would be closed down ect and alot of people livliehoods lost.

what about upon buying a gun you need a licence or agreement written with a gun club, which ensures sfae storage, no removal form premises(or cases for the reason for removal assessed). indeed have more gun clubs for people who like shooting.

maybe start with a ban on automatic military style weapos being allowed at home, working its way down to handguns over a period of time for people to adjust?

zip106

I think that's a little unfair on Sierra Leone.

dpb

It's a fundamental change of ethic required Jef, moving away from the notion that you've the right to bear arms

Mike GT

iTrader: (1)

Sod the twatting about with licences and safe storage, they need an outright ban full stop......it's not a god given right in any country to own a gun, even in America, it's just an old archaic constitutional agreement that CAN and SHOULD be changed, and make it illegal to own or buy personal use guns of any kind and usage should be restricted solely to gun clubs or professionally organised hunting events.
Sod the gun shops closing down and taking away a so called right of passage to own a gun, innocent school kids again lose their life because no one is prepared to tackle the issue head on, there shouldn't even be an arms amnesty option.
The only justice the parents, siblings and family members will ever see is an outright ban...the sooner the better IMO