dpb

I thought my sis must be coining it there,she runs and owns luxemotor on the midi with my brother in law, the business is based here they employ no french and charge 10k a week working 20 weeks a year.
But apparently after all french social takings she's scrapping by!

dpb

But then again the average french geezer appears to live a less stressed existence and better standard of life

LVC

The problem (one of many) is that the social charges for self-employed represent much more than the taxes (income tax and VAT). The minimum social charges (depending upon which "regime" you fall under) are around 2000€ a year even if you earn nothing and if you do earn then they can climb up to an excess of 50% of your earning, then you pay income tax and of course 19.6% TVA - so if you do the sums and earn let's say 40k euros a year - you end up with no more than 1000€ per month to live in. However if you do bugger all and claim the "chomage" (dole) then you can have a nice 1400€ per month with no tax to pay, paid holidays (vouchers), as well as food allowances, etc. etc. Also no self-respect but apparently this doesn't bother the majority of lazy sods.

I'd prefer the old PAYE (Pay as you earn) scheme the UK had when I was self-employed there much fairer.

More "natural lifestyle" as well - veggie patches, fresh air, plenty of wine and eating with friends but they do drive naff old cars and have limited "luxury items" (LED Tv's, iphones, numerous cars/bikes, etc.) but you're right on the whole they are much less stressed and much less in debt compared to the average Brit.

When I was in the UK I earn't really well (had a Porsche 911C4 at 26 whilst working in London), now I earn considerably less (taking into account inflation etc.) but my "quality" of life is so much better and I have oodles of spare time to enjoy - still took me nearly 8 years to figure it out once over here though.

dpb

You "lose" 60 percent of your earnings ???

On 40k salary.



The lifestyle would have to be out of this world

dpb

Is that 1400 dole on the basis being an ex- banker lvc?

r32

Surely the whole point of taxation is to bring in money to run the Country? So if by raising taxes to the rate where revenue actually decreases then youve done something wrong?
You cannot force people to do business here in the UK, or any where else for that matter.
More effort should be made on getting that revenue from those who avoid paying it. Amazon Starbucks etc........

In fact talking of raising revenue too high when fuel prices go up tax revenue now falls.

But back to France and Monsewer Hollande, his spend to regenerate France and now his soak the rich tactics have both failed miserably.

Suresh

I'm glad you understood the point I was trying to make. I didn't think it was too difficult to understand, but perhaps I overestimate the average intelligence here!

Maybe another idea is proportional representation where your vote is weighted according to the taxes you pay. Much fairer than the current approach that allows a feckless majority to graze on an industrious minority.

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

The guy's been in power what, all of 6 or 7 months? It's pretty early days to say whether they've failed just yet (or succeeded, for that matter).

markjmd

iTrader: (11)

That's a staggeringly small proportion of your own money to be left with, at such a modest level of gross earnings.

LVC

Yes average is around 60% when you're self-employed hence the reason why so many in France work "on the black" and don't declare all their earnings. The lifestyle is good but as I said before you can't measure it in acquisitions more in "quality". Example... I moved to France to start a family, my son is 8 years old, rides motorbikes, horses, quads and has a "natural healthy" lifestyle. His cousin has the same age and goes to a great (expensive) school in the UK and gets driven everywhere by his folks. My son is bilingual and maybe not as "intellectual" as his cousin but has a less protected lifestyle with many more real experiences, much more as a childhood should be in my opinion.

Lol no I'm not an ex-banker. 1400€ per month is around the average an "on the dole" person can expect to receive including housing benefits, etc. not bad for doing nothing - one of the reasons a lot of French "can't afford to work" as they'd earn less and be liable for rent, transport charges, etc. etc. - Chuffing stupid system.

LVC

Tell me about it

warrenm2

Pleased to see how so many people get the point. These high taxes dis-incentivise people from hard work (which benefits them, the economy and the country). People are being incentivised to stay at home and do nothing. Even the people screaming that public services have to be paid for must surely see how wrong this is. The answer is to LOWER taxes, lower public spending, and I agree to simplify the tax system to close loopholes and make a flat tax at a low rate for everyone. Everyone sees its fairer, and it would collect more money. (BTW these are UKIP policies - hint, hint! )

P.S. More evidence of the reality here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...our-to-UK.html

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

Do you really think that the minority of people in this country are hard working and the majority are feckless layabouts? And in the same post you bang on about others' intelligence?

Suresh

Evidently, when offered the chance of free money at the expense of an industrious minority, the 'democratic majority' took it and France got a socialist government. Or are you saying France doesn't have a socialist government?

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

1) About 18.5 million voted for Hollande out of 46 millon voters so not a democratic majority no.

2) I have no real idea how socialist Hollande's socialist party is in real terms. Many incorrectly call Blair's Labour Party socialist when they were actually as conservative as Cameron's conservative party so no idea really whether France has a proper socialist government or not. Hope so as it's better than the alternative right now

3) I think you'll find that the election manifesto of Hollande's party contained a wee bit more and a somewhat different message than 'free money at the expense of the industrious minority'. Sarkozy's austerity plan saw a lack of growth and flatlined employment figures so he paid the price, Hollande's alternative was a more growth oriented plan admittedly with some tax rises particularly for the rich. It remains to be seen if his policies will fair any better. Clearly Sarkozy's policies weren't working in much the same way the UK governement's aren't as otherwise why would Osborne have had to add another 3 years to the timescale for any real recovery to a plan he created only 2 years ago?

Finally you leep using the term 'industrious minority' when I think you mean 'rich minority'. A lot of people work very hard, but a great many of them are not in well paid jobs... they do however believe in working for a living. Hollande's policies aren't going to hurt them too much. Your term seems to imply a minority of people are industrious when in fact a minority of people are industrious and rich. Or do you just not consider those that work in normal run of the mill averagely paid jobs worthy of the term industrious?

J4CKO

iTrader: (1)

Socialism is fine whilst there is someone to pay for it, communism doesnt work so Capitalism is the only way, for me I would like to see the very wealthy pay their dues to where they make their money, more philanthropy and work never being the poor relation to benefits, I would like to see us importing less people to our small island, unless they bring something we need.

I am thinking ukip may be the way forward.

AndyBaker

Vote UKIP and you'll let Milliband in. We all know what happened last time.

GlesgaKiss

You say 'a lot of people work very hard'. That's true, but I'd bet they are still a minority. I work for a company now, and work with people from other companies, and I think it is fair to label a majority unfit of the term industrious. The working environment of a reasonable-sized modern company, and all the regulations that go with it, does provide a safety net for people who like to think they work hard simply by the fact they turn up to a working class job and spend the day at their employers disposal. This is evidently not true for at least half of them.

They're also too stupid or undisciplined to manage their own financial affairs properly, hence they're not very well off when they could quite easily be living comfortably. But people have different priorities in life. That's fine. If they want to gamble, drink, and spend all their money on consumer sh*te, fair enough, just as long as they don't expect everyone else to pick up the tab for the shortfall, which in the majority of cases they do. Then the rich aren't paying enough tax and these people are being persecuted. It's the same old story.

That's the thing I have a real problem with when it comes to public spending. Redistributing taxes would be fine if the people receiving them were genuinely all trying to help themselves and just needed a little help. As it is, it's a free-for-all. People who have kids without thinking are considered victims... as is anyone who happens to be 'struggling', regardless of how they got there.

scarey

Unemployment benefit in France is a % of your salary when you lost your job.

for the first two years you get 80% of your last salary. Why work.

In October Hollande's popularity rating had already dropped lower than Sarko's worst.

Hollande is a feckless, bigoted (against the rich), slopey-shouldered shower of ****.

He only got to stand for President because the original candidate got accused of rape.

c_maguire

Another well written post, you're good at this.
By the time I get motivated to post, something a little too far right for most slips out.
The sentiment is the same though.

Suresh

Being able to have children even if you can't pay for them yourself became a right somehow. That's just wrong. A line has to be drawn and the socialists logically want to rob the rich rather than having the ***** to draw a line. Which is logical as why would they block their own electorate from being irresponsible and getting free money whilst doing so?

I too am fully in favour of investing in people to help them improve themselves, but totally against the idea of endless entitlement for the able-bodied.

warrenm2

All of the "Big 3" have the same policies. They all want EU membership. They all aren't controlling immigration. Try and name a major policy difference between them. Already the "wasted" votes to UKIP are prompting Cameron to possibly offer a referendum on EU membership. The Tories are also moving to a more eurosceptic position (allegedly) due to the UKIP vote. So not wasted at all, these votes are already influencing politics. And if you don't vote for what you believe in, you have no excuse to complain. This country needs a major shake up and UKIP are the only ones with a half decent set of policies and are polling in second or third place in the latest by-elections. It won't take long for a breakthrough

cster

How very true.
Definition of France - A socialist country run by fascists.

David_Dickson

I have been in France seven years now and recently folded the business I had been running simply because I was pissing away so much in social charges for myself and the employees I needed. Those charges turned the business from something that did pretty well to something that just scraped into profit. No way was I willing to keep working that hard to earn so little, so now I work for myself as a gardener for a couple of clients. Its a massive change for me, but I actually earn more for less work and much less stress.

Long term though, France is not for me. I have a house, car, bills are paid and food in the cupboard, but Im not really saving anything, and if I start earning more to put some money away, I get taxed hard enough to make it pointless.

There is a complete lack of enterprising spirit here because taxation is so high and the bureaucratic system is so hard to deal with so people just don't bother. Why risk everything starting your own business when you could work in a supermarket for the same take-home pay and be pretty much guaranteed that job for life.

f1_fan

iTrader: (9)

I think you're right in that there are always going to be people who hold down a job by doing the bare minimum, but in my experience in the manufacturing sector they are few and far between. Sure there is a raft of legislation (mostly from Europe of course) that protects employees, but in the companies I used to work for there was also a lot more emphasis placed on pay linked to performance and appraisal systems etc.

Certainly in the last company I worked for just about everyone worked very hard from senior management to the factory floor workers and there was a genuine sense of unity, but then in manufacturing right now if you don't work like that you won't survive as a company so maybe that's the reason! Maybe in other industries that isn't the case.

That being said though I do still think an awful lot of people work hard at their jobs including the people in the lower paid jobs. I think most people would still rather work than be on benefits and in today's economic climate they know they need to do their job properly. I also think that if you are paying someone to do something at £6 an hour then as long as they do everything in their job description you can't really complain.

It's a little hard to compare their work ethic to that of a driven entrepreneur such as Ricahrd Branson... they are two different animals in two different worlds and there is nothing wrong with doing your job to the level prescribed in your job description without being expected to do more. For a lot of these people it is hand to mouth living, something a lot us on here could never understand.

Again while your example is a valid one I don't think it applies to a huge number of people. A lot of people are working and earning just enough to keep a roof over their head and their family fed. Yes they want a few quid to go down the boozer on a Saturday night, but why not? As for them being too stupid to mange their financial affairs I think some people just aren't good at that and more free help should be available from the banks and the government to gudie people sensibly. They could also do to get rid of the likes of Ocean Finance and their sort as well as easy credit and stupid accident and PPI claims companies all of whom suck these people in to something they can't afford in the long term or the promise of something that they won't ever get! We are blessed in that we do have the nous to manage ourfinances sensibly, a number of people just don't have that sense sadly!

I do agree with this particularly the kids thing. I see no reason why anyone should think they have a right to have kids when they can't afford it. that is a bloody nonsense! That said I do think the system needs a proper overhaul. It is too easy to solely blame the people for taking advanatage of a free for all when if the free for all did not exist they couldn't. The trouble is whilst successive governments have talked of changing the benefit systems they have never actually done it! It needs doing and a work ethic needs to be returned to the core values of everyone! Good luck with that